Help with ships

[huntn]

I'm stumped. Playing as English, I have shipwrights and dockyards, but when I had a Keep and then upgraded to a Castle, all that shows up are barques. I'm missing something. I want to build Caravals and larger. Can you point me at a good source online for ship building, or describe what I need?

I downloaded the tech.pdf and it says that a Caraval, Fire Galley, and Baggala should appear.

Thanks
-Hunt'n http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Oaty]

You can tech up to have the buildings for the ships but you cannot train those ships until 1205(high period) or the beginning of late period,forgot the year.

[katank]

ok, first of all, you have three different ship lines.

catholics and russians except for italians and sicilians have barques with shipwright, caravel with dockyard, etc.

italians sicilian, and byz have galleys and dromons with shipwright, firegalleys with dock yard, etc.

muslims get dhows with shipwright and baggalas with dockyard.

muslims can get baggalas (deep sea ships) in early.

all other factions need to wait until high (1205) to get second level ships.

[bighairyman]

yeah so just wait, but if you ask me, what's the point in getting hight tech pricey ships when you can get many low tech ships for less? plus ship battle is mostly random anyway, it might be better to have 3 longboats than a carrack, for example. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[RedKnight]

Yeah, the simplicity of naval battles is a bit of a pain, especially on Expert, where the AI ships seem to be considerably overpowered. You have to have 3 to 4 times the ships or firepower to be pretty sure you'll win. C'est la vie... they couldn't do everything in just one game, including modelling navies real well. And - shrug - if you're playing Expert, you know to expect hard-ass sea battles... in a sense, players otherwise can really screw the AI by owning the seas.

Other oddnesses about the shipbuilding tech tree:

You can build Shipwright (4 turns) and Dockyard (6 turns) with a Keep. Thus the second level doesn't need another castle level.

BUT a Shipbuilders Guild (8 turns) needs a Citadel AND needs a Cannon Foundry (which follows a Bell Foundry) and the Compass. And Foundries need Gunpowder. So, while a Dockyard is easy relative to the usual need next castle level rule, the building past that has not one, but four more conditions - gunpowder, compass, cannon foundry, and citadel. You get gunpowder in 1259, but I forget compass... it's sometime before that... anyone?

bighairy, while what you say is true, at Expert level it's so easy to be killed... and bigger ships take as long as lesser ships (except for the best ships, 4 turns instead of 3), so if I have lots of money and it takes the same time, you know what I'm going to make... the weak link is the ability to produce, not what is produced. however, you still have to have the little ships because they generally have the highest speeds - and you need that to catch those PITA dromons that otherwise will just run forever, disrupting all your zones of control. So in the late game I generally have at least one cheap ship, and then however many big bastids I can pile on, when I'm trying to catch a fast, small enemy ship.

Ahoy there matey Prepare to be boarded By ale http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[ichi]

Quote[/b] ]what's the point in getting hight tech pricey ships when you can get many low tech ships for less?

If the point is to win, then cover the seas with loww-mid level ships. You are absolutely right, its easy to win without the Cogs and they come so late that they are not a factor.

But I don't play the game to win. As I have stated before in other threads, I like to get into the game. I like to ramp up to the highest levels - build Cogs or Lancers or JHI - or get the College of Surgeons - or the Master Metalsmith - or hell yea - the siege Cannon Towers. The surgeons doesnt help me 'cause my hppiness is so high already, and the AI never attacks my homeland castle late in the game when my borders are many provinces away, so I NEVER use those Siege Cannon Towers, but I love to build em.

Same reason I get rid of Guvs with the Outlaw or Family Trader Vice, as a good diety I need to take care of my virtual people.


Same reason I try to collect one of every type of cavalry in each game. I love to have stacks of cav with my King at the end of the game, each stack with 16 different types of cav

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/cavscreen1.jpg

I know, ichi get a life

I play this game as a diversion from the real world. I play this game for a challenge (try me online and you'll see how successful I have been at challenging myself - very challenged I am), and cause its fun to build things like Cogs. I feel better about my games when I have really amped up my empire - better than I feel about it when I just blitz across Europe and use my knowledge of the game to just whoop the computer in the shortest period

This game is definatley about the journey, not the destination.

IMHO

ichi

[RedKnight]

here, here Ichi, and well said - I can talk forever about game mechanics, but it comes down to the journey. and the conquering of all the known world, lol.

we should both get a life. maybe they have a Medieval Dating Service?
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[ichi]

LOL RK, I can see the ads:

Aging redneck hippy, focused on computer games, seeks beautiful blond twins with independent wealth who love to cook; high speed internet connex with wide screen plasma super-comp a major plus. Should be able to hold a conversation with back of my head for hours.

Send photo of comp to: ichi_san@lycos.com

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

ichi

[Josephus V]

Speaking of speed in ships, is the lower number better. I've got ships with speed 3 that move one zone at a time while a speed 1 sails through many zones. I'm confused at that?

[foop]

Quote[/b] (Josephus V @ June 15 2004,16:45)]Speaking of speed in ships, is the lower number better. I've got ships with speed 3 that move one zone at a time while a speed 1 sails through many zones. I'm confused at that?
I think the speed matters in combat, whereas the number of sea zones that can be moved is a reflection of the level of development of the ship. So barques are small and nippy and can sail quickly out of a fight. But they're crap at journeying on the open seas and can't sail from Skaggerak to the Straits of Gibraltar. Whereas Cogs aren't that manouverable in combat but can sail the high seas with no problem.

At least, I think that's what it means.

[Marquis de Said]

My God, Ichi

I just started piling heavy cavalry troops into my king's stack in my Italian campaign just so that the king could have a stack of 16 different heavy cav. I actually bribed a Mongol army so that I could get some Mongol heavy cavalry to join the king's entourage. It's funny how you think nobody else is crazy enough to something like that only to find out somebody is. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Should be able to hold a conversation with back of my head for hours.
You should add:

...without ever hearing a reply except for the occasional That f***ing back-stabbing Pope is attacking me again in my weakest province

Marquis
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[katank]

speed is separate from range. range determines the deep sea factor and ships can move more than one province a turn if deep sea and going through deep sea zones, can go very fast.

however, these ships often have slow combat speeds and you find range and speed to be inverse.

[Blodrast]

ok, i know it's really off topic, but ichi started it ;P
blame ichi http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif
i definitely agree that the game it's about enjoying it and having fun on the way, not about winning. I sometimes (quite often) think that it's not about winning at all anymore.

Ok, it may be about winning the first X (put your favourite number here) campaigns; but after you proved to yourself (hehe, you definitely need a life and should see a shrink if you needed to prove something like that to yourself; I know I do ;) ) that you can beat the game, that you can smash the game to a bloody pulp, it's not just about winning.

Then you start getting deeper into it, playing various mods that give you a different perspective, you start imposing subtler handicaps on yourself (just giving the AI 1M florins/100k troops/whatever is cheap, and really doesn't mean anything), such as self-imposed rules related to roleplaying (ObakeDate's rules from ezboard are the first thing that come to mind, but there's others out there, too), to driving and maneuvering the game into various positions (*), to trying out new crazy things just because you think and feel they're fun, etc...

(*): a personal example: right now i'm playing a campaign where I'm french and holding france, uk, iberia and some NAfrica (just conquered this and iberia), and with one exception, all factions on the map are crap, fighting each other, rebellions, and generally getting the hell beat out of them by the exceptions - Eggys, who have everything from Egypt, the entire Asia Minor, the steppes up to Muscovy (yeah, they demolished the GH), and north and eastern Europe up to and including Poland, Prussia, and Moldavia.
They really are a superpower, and I was contemplating what I should do about it. Of course I can rip right into them and I'll get them in the long run, simply because I can. But is that the most interesting thing to do ? Can I have more fun watching them rape the Pope and all other prissy Europeans, and just teching up for the heck of it ? I can build some Jedi's in the meantime, I can play with agents or what have you...
Btw, feel free to make suggestions.

Back on track now though:
what it all comes down to is that it's a great game because I can direct it and drive it around to whatever situations I might consider fun, because it allows me for a decent (could be better) degree of roleplaying, because i really get a huge kick when i listen to the drums of war and they stop and 2000 bloodthirsty madmen start their charge towards their death with a mighty warcry, and rains of arrows and...

get a life ? why ? i like the one i have right now just fine.

[Xiphias]

What's your cash situation like? If you've got a big trade network and lots of reserves then you could bribe every other province off them.

[RedKnight]

I have a similar situation - playing an Expet High Danes games. They start off woefully slowly due to having only one high-tech province... meanwhile, the Spanish now own everything from Iberia on around to Constantinople and Georgia... lots of stacks, highly loyal, and worst of all, LOTS of ships... there is going to be one helluva showdown. I don't think bribing will do well because the troops are so loyal on the one hand, and I'm gonna need a huge warchest to outlive the loss of trade on the other. The thought has occurred to me to try and assasinate (or kill) all his royalty but for the moment I'm finishing off the middle of Europe, and building LOTS of boats.

[katank]

Without Syria, covert ops is tough.

Castille comes to mind but they have it too.

still, grand inquisitors might be quite useful for frying their royalty.

[LestaT]

When I played Cath factions I alweys get in trouble with Byzantines ships. Even 5 of my English caravels has been easily sunk by one ship only. Why ? Why ? Why ? That's why I've always pray that the Byzantines didn't prosper.

[katank]

naval combat is random.

naval combat favor speed somewhat so throw in a barque or two.

better yet, use sacrifice the peasants method by sending a half dead unit of peasants to attack some strongly defended province and autocalcing on the same turn as epic naval combat.

the game engine will feel sorry for your loss on land and almost certainly give you all the naval victories.

i've had lone 0* curragh sink 3 viking snekkjas led by a 3* using this method.

now observe your little barque stomp 5 wargalleys muwahahaha. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[RedKnight]

katank, are you kidding about the game engine feeling sorry for you? the peasant sacrifice really works? whoa. I was almost coming to like the idea of, really hard naval battles, laugh.

Lestat, keep an eye on your command stars vs. enemy command stars, too... if they have high stars (which they will often get if somebody lets them attack them piecemeal, since they usually win even battles), they might get big star ratings... which means you'd need a HUGE stack of low-stars to even think about taking on, a stack of high-star enemy ships.

[katank]

you think I'm kidding? it works

my curragh didn't take on magical powers on its own.

I'm sure that admiral mourned the selfless sacrifice of that peasant (while drunk form the victory toast http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif ) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Try it and be pleasantly surprised.

it's a bit cheap though as it can give really lopsided results.

saves me thousands of florins and decades of province time in training though.

I like to use single digit mercs for this purpose too.

you can actually use the fleets in combat to land the invasion force at a third party's province, preferably an enemy or rebel's.

my merc HA unit that helped me carve out an empire and is now a single man performs a final service by becoming a suicide force that allowed his liege's fleets to emerge victorious from the epic naval combat by destroying over 30 ships and losing only 2. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif