Best ancillary upgrades?

[RedKnight]

Hi folks,

Often as not, I tend to build a province up to the level where it can make a base unit I really want (e.g. Chiv Knights), then dip back down and make plusses, like armor, churches, etc. (Or, I have conquered a province that has some gaps, and I have some choices.) As opposed to, knowing what I want in the end, and building everything needed at each castle level (all armor, etc.).

This lets me easily change course if needed (since I built the castle up before I invested in any one line), and also makes replacements easier, since I have unenhanced units coming out, to provide replacements for my veteran front line units that need more men.

In any event, if one were to choose between the various upgrades, if all things were equal (I could build any particular upgrade), which are best, and why?

It's my impression that Valour is the single best upgrade. Each level of valour adds one to both offense and defense, yes? So it's like both an armor and a weapon upgrade. BUT, it takes making the building level PAST the current level (which needs a castle upgrade), and it's not always clear what's needed - e.g. with Chiv Knights, does it need a Palace upgrade (there isn't one) or a Horse Breeder upgrade? Or maybe even a spear (lance) upgrade, who knows? (The general consensus seems to be that nobody knows for multi-class units, so build them all.) Anyway, Valor seems to be best, but the building requirements can be incredibly hefty and/or quite unclear.

After valour then, I would guess that armor is better than morale (churches), so I go for that. To be precise, in terms of years needed to make something, I make armor upgrades before morale upgrades.

Your thoughts?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Sjakihata]

Basically, valour is the best.

It gives offense and defense plust better morale.

However, adding a weapon smith is certainly not a bad choice or a blacksmith, depending if you use defensive or offensice tactics.

But first get valour, then later get armour/weapons as a luxury

[motorhead]

obviously valor bonuses are #1 since you get +1 attack/defense and +2 morale. Any valor bonus provs are always a priority in obtaining as they're the quickest way to +valor.

I tend to follow the complete opposite of your build strat - i look to max out the morale/armor buildings for a castle before building up. I figure if a war suddenly breaks out, i'll be able to send out upgraded troops immediately.

Generally, i'll go with morale buildings before armor but this can vary. If my aim is halberdiers (base 0 morale), then +morale first since that's their weak point. If i'm going for feudal sgts (base 2 morale) i'll favor armor upgrades since that's their weakness. The advantage of morale buildings (church/mosque) is they give +happiness, convert population to your religion and allow you to start pumping out religious agents to snoop on your neighbors.

[katank]

valor above all, then depends upon unit types.

attackers likeswords, kngihts etc. should get weapon, armor, and morale last since they have great morale.

defenders like spears, polearms, etc. should get morale=armor, weapons

foot missiles are armor, morale, then weapons

HAs are morale very important, armor, weapons.

the list goes on.

these all help with their functionality.

attackers are best used on flanks and rear were armor wouldn't help much and they are usually elite or disciplines unit with 4+ morale so that's not an issue at all.

defensrs should get morale and armor around the same time as you don't want your 0 or 2 morale defensive units breaking easily but at the same time, armor will help with both melee and missile protection.

missiles need armor for missile dueling and also helps them out if they get caught in melee. morale is important for skirmishing and weapons last since they shoudl be last ditch fighters.

HAs need morale badly as they start from -1 to 4. they are constantly skirmishing and moving away and will experience constant retreat penalty etc. without decent morale, they would just rout off the field. armor and weapons, same rationale as foot missiles.

[RedKnight]

thanks, everybody makes a lot of sense

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Sociopsychoactive]

It also depends heavily on which faction, and other factors like are you going for one main centralised unit producer province (other than +valour provinces, most unitscan then be retrained to add weapons and armour) like constantinople, or a wide industry like the engligh tend to get.

For the muslim actions armour is very doubtfull, especially early on as in the desert it will just make for nackered troops. Same with byzantium if going through the desert, which is a shjame as they have most of the infrastructure in place for great armour, even in early.

My preference goes like this,

valour, obviously,

Then armour for all but those who will never see combat, horse archers and light cav for example (light cav tend to have no armour to start and are used mostly for mopping up routers)

then weapons, especially for chock troops but troops of the line (spear and the like) do well for it too, having upgraded weapons on your spears makes for more effeective pinners.

Moral for those with bad, halbs, vanilla spear and HA, but other than that armour all the way.

[katank]

I personally keep some low armor units around just for desert combat as that's a good point but I never see a point in weapons for spears unless you really want to.

spear etc. are defensive troops for pinning the enemy and hold as long as possible which means that armor is far more important than weapons IMHO.

[Blodrast]

well, there are a bunch of factors (as usual) that make a lot of difference.
for instance, if you're close to midgame, when you own like half the map, you probably want to build at least churches in most (if not all) of your provinces, and some other higher morale / happiness buildings in the more rebellious provinces. this is because at that point you'll start going at war with everybody, and if you're a catholic, you'll probably find yourself excommunicated.
also, after you get some 60% of the map, your generals/governors will start getting a huge load of really nasty vices, mostly reducing income but happiness as well.
all these together, spiced up with the death of your ruler with significant +happiness virtues, might easily plunge your empire into civil war or rebellions.

besides that, since you'll most likely have each troop-producing province specialized in a certain troop type (e.g. CK, or FMAA, or whatever), you develop each of them keeping that particular type in mind. e.g., just like katank said, if you're building CS, since they have crappy morale, it wouldn't hurt to give them a church and a monastery before the armourer; CS rout because of low morale rather than dying because of low armour. Conversely, if one province is building CK, heck, they've already got all the morale they need, so just beef them up as much as possible...

From my limited experience, I've noticed that by having churches I managed to avoid rebellions throughout the entire game. You may need more than churches (e.g. monasteries), but most likely only in rebellious provinces and the ones where you're building low morale troops.