Betrayed by an allied general...

[PseRamesses]

A while back I was playing the Byz at war with the Pol and allied with the Rus. Invaded Carpathia from Wallachia and faced a bridgebattle. I was stationed further away from the bridge than my Rus allies who reached the bridge first. I though I´d let them fight it up and move in if my allies was loosing.
I lined up my 6 BI, 6AR and 4HA in a tight formation behind the Rus who where heavily engaged on the bridge with all troops except 4 HA close to the bridge. Now, in the midst of batteling on the bridge the Rus general was struck with hybris and attacked me with his HA´s - talk about being squeezed between a rock and a hard place. I swiftly stormed his HA´s with my BI´s and let all hell loose on his troops on the bridge with my 10 proj units. Needless to say the river flowed with blood. My BI´s engaged the remains of the Rus troops on the bridge while the Pol was hammering them from the opposite side. Victory was swift and decisive.

Have you ever been betrayed by an ally on the battlefield? It happened alot in STW but this was the first time in MTW.

[katank]

yep, I (Italian) was betrayed by my polish ally when we were both attacking the Huns.

I let the Polish attack the Huns and they got routed, running for their lives past my lines.

The Huns were chasing victoriously and only ran into my missile battery of 10 archers, 4 spears in a wall in front.

due to low morale units under fire, the Huns routed upon intact with my spear wall.

I gave chase with my steppe cav unit and RK general.

However, I saw my archers flashing melee and realized that my Polish allies rallied and were back stabbing me

I wheeled my spear wall around, got my archers out of there and then peppered them now.

In the end, I killed the Polish easily but I did lose a whole unit of archers from that battle.

[-Amon-]

hmmm..interesting http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

Do you have replay?

[katank]

me? no. I didn't save a replay as it's not that rare to have stabbing allies

besides, the Poles relieved a siege and I used them to take two provinces before so there's reason that they would be angry for me wanting to take advantage of them again.

[HicRic]

I've played only a few battles in STW with allies in them but I've never seen them attack me. Guess I should be thankful http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Maedhros]

It probably isn't that common to share a battlefield with an ally.

I've been betrayed, and the betrayor in battles. It can be quick way to gain a large advantage in a region.


Any thoughts on whether some factions do this more than othrs? I know I saw it fairly often in Shogun, less in ME

[katank]

I think it's fairly common and Byz always seem to be steadfast allies for me.

I think they only do this when you repeatedly take advantage of the alliance and make them shed blood for your gain or you appear particularly weak in a battle.

[The Illustrated Man]

Interesting post... it hasn't happened to me yet, but I had a strange feeling it would today.

Following an HRE civil war, Flanders became a rebel province. The French attacked a couple of times to try and reclaim it but retreated because of rebel numbers which gave me an opportunity (as the Danes) to put together a reasonable army.

I attacked and my allies, the French also sent a supporting force. My army was larger to begin with but in the ensuing battle the rebels hit me before the French forces. After a short exchange, the rebels broke and the French who had just turned up on the scene pursued so I pulled back and formed up ready to receive an attack from the French.

Anyhoo... they didn't attack me but the province went to the French for supposedly fielding the larger force.

Still I got it back a few years later with the assistance of an 8 star general after the French had a pop at me.

So to cut a long story short, it still hasn't happened to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But I was most aggrieved about not getting control of Flanders at my first attempt.

Peace and tolerance


J

[katank]

it's the number of guys surviving at the end that counts so run the heck outta there and let the frenchies take the hits.

when they get hit hard, they will lose more guys.

not only will the province go to you, the french will also get less ideas about taking it for their own later if they get destroyed.

[Julius Caesar]

I also have never been betrayed by an ally before, its me that usually betrays them.

[PseRamesses]

What relly bugs me is not the betrayal, was going to declare war upon them anyway, but the sheer stupidity to do it in that particular tactical situation on the battlefield.
There is no way, under no circumstances, that the AI could calculate to win this battle so why declare war? This could easily have been the most stupid AI-move I´ve ever encountered.

[katank]

I never get it either.

at least half the time that I've been betrayed, they couldn't have won.

I must say that in the battle I described, they actually could have had a chance if they were fasterin destroying my archers as my spearwall would then be worthless. I also had my cav chasing routers at the time and they could have actually beat me if they timed it better.

[pyhhricvictory]

I had a similar situation in the Napoleonic Mod. I was England and had become involved in a very long campaign against the French after they had destroyed my Dutch Allies and had taken Friesland from me. I counterattacked into Friesland and was joined by a fairly large Danish force that said that they were my allies. I had been allies with them almost since the beginning of the game and had helped them lift sieges in the past so I thought everything was good between us. I began to form my lines and began a arty barrage on the French army that was on top of a small hill. I wasn't really paying much attention to the Danes as they began to march forward towards the French lines. I thought this was great, I could sit back and shell the French, the Danes would march in and cause even more death and destruction and then I could send in my cav to sweep the French off of the field. The next thing that I know, the Danes wheel around and form right in front of my lines and open fire on me. Most of my arty was destroyed since it was in front of my lines while I tried to get formed. They moved forward and engaged my front lines and began to actually push me back a little at first but I began to gain the upper hand thanks to my KGL. Then I notice that the French have left thier hilltop position and have begun marching down the hill towards me. They hit my right flank with everything that they had cav wise and my line crumbled. I decided to just give it up and retreat so I selected all but two KGL units and withdrew them from battle while my last two units fought a rearguard action. The Danish and French Cav charged my retreating troops and swept them from the field. I entered the battle with 980 troops under the command of a 5* general and managed to get my general and two half units of light cav off of the field. I ended up losing about 920 men from that army and the French kept the province. The next turn, I moved every availible army stack that I had into the Danish territory and crushed them in about three turns of fighting and sieges.

I had never seen this much of a backstab before this

[katank]

ouch, that must have hurt.

at least that was a good backstab.

the AI rarely makes a good stab. Occasionally they do a nice one tactically as it was in your case, but I've never seen a good stab that was also strategic.

Ie. the stab doesn't end with me crushing their faction within a few turns.

[Red Harvest]

I've had an ally betray me on the battlefield once or twice. It has been awhile so I don't recall specifics. Since that happened I have been cautious to always leave some units facing my ally so that he doesn't get any bright ideas. You have to watch carefully, because the AI will hide behind your melee units while you take on a tough enemy army. I do a lot of:
"You first."
"No, be my guest."
"Oh no, I must insist that you have the honor of engaging the enemy first in glorious battle."
This little dance is the key to holding provinces after a battle... Fortunately the AI usually ends up engaging first because it will send cav or skirmishers forward piecemeal.

As has been said, the winning allied army with the most men at the end of the battle is the one that gets posession. The AI is very opportunistic about this. If you build up to take a province that you both border, it will throw in a huge army so that it gets control in the end (or if the enemy fails to take the field.) I've learned to throw in everything I can muster to prevent the AI from "free loading" off of my attacks.

[katank]

that's quite true.

I tend to send in piles of trash units every turn if I see an ally having large stacks near a mutual enemy.

I do the opposite and free load this way, only choosing to actually fight when my ally joins me.

I never use good general but a 0* sucker who can get the hesitant vice and I wouldn't care.