Battle of shrewsbury 1403

[ShadesWolf]

the first historic battle to be featured in mine and DJ new mod ' 2Crowns' will be the battle of shrewsbury 1403.

Some have said this is the first episode in the 'The war of the roses' so it is a good place to start.


Quote[/b] ]The seeds of the Battle of Shrewsbury were sown four years earlier when the king, Richard II, was deposed by his cousin, Henry Bolingbroke, who was then crowned Henry IV.

Richard had been an unpopular king, and not a lot of people missed him when he was gone. Henry was better, but the way he seized the crown hadn't made him too popular and he didn't have to wait long before the first uprising by Richard's supporters.


The battle was between Henry Percy (hotspur) and Henry IV king of England. Hotspurs army included, his uncle, the Earl of Worcester, and the Scottish Earl of Douglas, along with 3000 Cheshire archers.

The kings force include his son, Harry aged 15, who would later become Henry V.

Number vary but a good estimate is the king had 10,000 men compared to hotspurs 7,000. The Battle of Shrewsbury also has significance for another reason. For decades the English had wreaked havoc on opposing armies - OK - the French - with their longbows - hugely powerful bows propelling arrows that could pierce the thickest armour - but Shrewsbury was the first time that English bowmen faced each other.


So there you have it an nice introduction, so if anybody would like to add anything please do.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

After the capture of several important Scottish nobles at Homildon hill, the percy family were outraged as King Henry IV demanded the prisoners be turned over to him, which annoyed the percies beyond all endurance. They fought the battle and should therefore reap the benefits of a Scottish defeat.
They disobeyed his command and began to plot a coup d'etat with Welsh patriot, Owen Glendower.

Harry Hotspur marched south to link with Glendower. He had around 4,000 men but soon heard word that the King was marching north with a force of some 5,000, not to attack him but lend him troops for an expected Scottish invasion

Hotspur dispatched his Uncle, Thomas Percy with demands of a reformation in the realm and having no real wish to wage war on one of his most powerful barons, the king agreed.
Yet Thomas Percy returned to camp and said that the king refused the conditions He was still angry about the loss in ransom and this obviously sent him over the edge.

Hotspur's vanguard was led by Archie Douglas, a former enemy who was captured at Homildon hill the previous year.

The rebel army had the veteran cheshire bowmen and although smaller in number, got the better in the murderous exchange of arrow fire and rained death on the royal army.

When the main armies clashed, Hotspur with thirty mounted knights rushed for the kings standard, with Hotspur personally killing the Earl of Stafford and Thomas Blount , the king's standard bearer.

Even after prince Henry had an arrow pierced his cheek, he led an attack which swept round the rear of the rebel army striking it in the rear.

After a time a shout came saying Hotspur was dead and with no reply forth coming the rebels began to collapse. Harry was indeed dead with an arrow in the face.

The battle was a close run thing. Even after Hotspurs death the battle raged and even when night came, neither side knew who was the victor

[ShadesWolf]

Bump, does anybody have any other information ?

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

What sort of info shades?

[ShadesWolf]

BKB only me and you have posted in this thread. Now I know that because we come from the centre of the country we are ' probably' the most intellegunt people in the country, but I thought some other people might have had a little knowledge on the period/ battle.

For example -

Any Scots with knowledge of the Douglas's
Any people from the NE with info on the Percy's
Maybe people from Shrewsbury or the area around
- with knowledge of the battlefield
- cheshire longbows
- Picture of the battles field or the surrounding area....

etc, etc, etc http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I can get info on the Douglases and percies. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

ARCHIBALD DOUGLAS, fourth Earl, immortalised both by Shakespeare and Sir Walter Scott. He was called Tineman (Loseman), in consequence of his having lost almost all the battles that he fought. ‘It is true,’ says Godscroft, ‘that no man was less fortunate, and it is no less true that no man was more valorous.’ He married Margaret, daughter of Robert III., and was even more famous and powerful than his father had been in the government of the kingdom. He was accused of having been, accessory. along with the Duke of Albany, to the death of the Duke of Rothesay, his brother-in-law, against whom his resentment was said to have been roused by the neglect with which that unfortunate prince treated his wife, the Earl’s sister. (See THE EARLDOM OF MENTEITH.) From his youth upwards Douglas showed great promptitude and activity in defending Scotland against the inroads of the English. In the year 1400 he gained a victory at East Linton over Hotspur and the Earl of March, who had renounced his allegiance to the Scottish king in consequence of the unjust treatment which he had received in the affair of his daughter’s affiance to the Duke of Rothesay. The Earl also successfully defended the Castle of Edinburgh against the assault of Henry IV. on his invasion of Scotland, the last conducted by an English monarch in person. In September, 1402, however, Douglas was defeated and taken prisoner by Percy at Homildon Hill, near Wooler, where he displayed great courage, but was guilty of very grave errors as a general. He was wounded in four places and lost an eye in this battle, which was gained entirely by the skill of the English archers and the mismanagement of the Scottish leaders, many of whom were left on this fatal field.

A quarrel rose between the victors and Henry IV. respecting the disposal of the numerous Scottish nobles and knights taken prisoners at Homildon, and a conspiracy was set on foot by the Earl of Northumberland and his son against that King, whom they had been mainly instrumental in raising to the throne. Douglas and the majority of the captive Scottish knights were gained over to support the enterprise. The insurgent forces hastened to the South with a view of effecting a junction with Owen Glendower, who had also taken up arms against Henry; but they were encountered at Shrewsbury by a powerful army, which the King had assembled to intercept their march. The conflict which ensued raged for three hours with varying fortune. The brilliant courage displayed by Douglas, which has been commemorated by Shakespeare, called forth the eulogiums of his adversaries, and his fierce attacks more than once placed the life of Henry himself in imminent danger and nearly decided the battle. According to the old chroniclers, Lord Stafford, Sir Walter Blunt, the royal standard-bearer, and two other leaders, who were arrayed like the King, were encountered and killed by Douglas, who, in cutting down the fourth man clad in royal apparel, is said to have exclaimed, ‘Where the devil were all these kings born?’ In the end the death of Hotspur, who fell pierced through the brain with an arrow, turned the tide of battle and gave the victory to the royal army. Douglas, in attempting to escape from the field, fell over a precipitous bank and was severely bruised. He was in consequence taken prisoner, quietly remarking, ‘The man sits full still that has a rent in his breeks (breeches),’ a homely saying which has passed into a proverb. He recovered his liberty in 1406 on payment of a large ransom

Hope this help's geezer


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Have you seen any flags or shield images for Douglas or worcester.

I know the main image i will use, which is the 'white hart', which I will use for Percy flag, but If you seen any other, then I could make two smaller armies with their own flags

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hang on......


Right the douglas emblem is a weird one. A salamander atop of a burning hat.



http://houseoftartan.co.uk/clan/badge/smline/cb032.gif


http://www.baronage.co.uk/bpgif-03/badges/2badges/douglasb.gif


"Jamais arriere"- Gaelic for never behind



The worcester one would be the pembroke badge. Blue and red halfed with 3 white lions, here's a very good link which should help geez

http://www.tudorplace.com.ar/Peerage1.htm

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Also this is a warwickshire part of the worcester family which could also be used


http://www.woodwardfamilyonline.com/images/coatofarms3.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Was the Worcester emblem also the same in the days of the Percy's.

As you have stated that it is Tudor ?

[TonkaToys]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 20 2004,17:52)]A salamander atop of a burning hat.
Very interesting guys, sorry you aren't getting much help from anyone else.

I think they used to believe that the salamander was born from fire, hence the device.

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 20 2004,18:52)]"Jamais arriere"- Gaelic for never behind
Not Gaelic, but French

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I don't why i said that, there was a gaelic on the site and i wrote down the wrong description sorry http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Right worcester



Home > article

Worcester, Thomas Percy, earl of
Related: United Kingdom History Biographies

woos´ter , c.1344-1403, English nobleman; brother of Henry Percy, 1st earl of Northumberland . He served with considerable success in the wars in France and Spain, especially as admiral of the fleet of the north, a position to which he was appointed in 1378. He also served on several diplomatic missions, heading the English embassy to France to treat for peace in 1392. He was created earl of Worcester by Richard II in 1397. He accompanied Richard to Ireland in 1399 as admiral, but upon their return to England he joined his brother and his nephew, Sir Henry Percy , in supporting the seizure of the throne by Henry IV. Henry confirmed Worcester's past privileges and in 1401 appointed him seneschal (steward), lieutenant of South Wales, and tutor to the prince of Wales (1402). In July, 1403, Worcester surprised the king by joining his kinsmen in open revolt against the crown. Captured in the subsequent battle of Shrewsbury, Worcester was beheaded.


http://www.houseofnames.com/xq....uct.htm (http://www.houseofnames.com/xq/asp/sID./item.JPG%2D1002/qx/showproduct.htm)

The worcester family crest


http://www.houseofnames.com/coatofa....rcester (http://www.houseofnames.com/coatofarms_details.asp?sId=&s=worcester)


The worcester family coat of arms


Percy


Hostspur own arms

http://www.geocities.com/percyfamilyhistory/hotspur.html


The main percy badge


http://www.hannahdustin.com/images/percy_coat.jpg

[ShadesWolf]

So BKB, how many armies should I have on the Percy side

So far the battle is

2650 (22 units for the King)
V
1720 (16 units for Percy)

I could split the Percy army into three (1x1x14) and give both Worcester and Douglas there own flags. This way the AI would control them and make them more impettious.

What do you think.

So far, MOST of my trial battles as Percy I always win http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif so I want to make it a little harder

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I'd split the rebels into three armies, with the royal army into two with prince henry commanding part of the force. The rebel archers should be better but the royals should have more. Maybe the infantry being better for the rebels but the royals have better infantry, and much more of them.

[Gallowglass]

Blind King,

Excuse me for being a pernickity bastard. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

The emblem for you which you are using for the Douglases is from the Red Douglases. There were two branches of Douglas family, the Black Douglases (which were the dominant sept at this time period) and the Red Douglases. Archibald Douglas belonged to the the Black Douglases and thus he wouldn't have used that court of arms. The Black Douglases had a different emblem which is shown in the link below.

The reason that this emblem is not used much on other sites is that the Black Douglases rebelled against James II in the middle of the 15th Century. They ended up defeated and exiled and thus their line ended. The Red Douglases ended up as the main family of the Douglas name. From now on their crest is always associated with the Douglas family from now on and thus it dominates all the sites.

Lastly, you would like to know of an interesting individual who played a large part in both outcomes in the battles of Homildon Hill and Shrewsbury is the Scottish renegade George Dunbar, the Earl of March. He was considered the most skilled Scottish general of the day and ended up in both the of winning sides of each of the battles.

Black Douglas Family (http://www.rableather.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/history/blackdouglas.html)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I saw two douglases, but it wouldn't let me get the black douglas one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

I saw that coat today, bugger should have got that

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif


Interesting info there Galloglass, ta for that mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[ShadesWolf]

Thanks for the good info Gallow, so should I be using http://www.rableather.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/grafix/douglas2.jpg as the douglas flag ?

Also, it is nice to know about March, as this now means I can add a third faction to my Royal army.

BKB at the moment I have 1 Rebel army and 2 Royals. This is the reason I am looking for new leader to enable me to increase the armies, but keeping the initial 'total number of units and troops.'

With regard to numbers of archers, I will use the new unit graphics DJ is creating for cheshire archers. The Rebels had 3,000 of these so it was a large % of their army, unfortunatley I have been unable to locate a number for the Royals, but I am assuming with would be less than this..... Does anybody have any links ? I have a book on order from amazon on the battles, but it is on backorder, so I wont get if for a couple of weeks

I will post some images/ pictures of the battles once I am happy with the factions flags etc....

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

The royals did have more archers but they were not as well trained or experienced as the archers fighting for percy