Those ugly forest melees

[WorkNeglecter]

Playing HRE in early and short of cash I am fielding huge armies of Militia Sergeants (I've modded them a +1v for bohemia, and invested in weapons, armor and morale in bohemia). They're cheap to produce and replace, and plenty have pride or brave beyond belief. A lot of them go into battle with valour of 5-8.
I've been playing them in the woods where they can take on pretty much any early unit, especially the Hungarians (who field lots of HA and javs). It's been working well.
The problem is that I can't see what's going on and it's impossible for me to keep them in a decent formation. I can't flank with them. I'll have six or seven units of MS and they'll keep alternating between winning easily and losing badly.
BTW, do they still get a charge bonus in the woods? And what about wedge formation, do they keep their formation bonus even in the woods?
Is there anyway to see through the trees?

[mfberg]

As you have noticed MS are darned good (almost OP), they do belong in the woods. There they will chop through almost anything short of VG or Huscarles and will quickly dispatch spears/cavalry stupid enough to be in the same woods.

Woods were much more difficult for commanders to engage in, and much easier to ambush in and from. I think CA did a good job making it harder to work in the woods than in the open.

I am not sure if there are any foliage settings you can use to see better, but the flying camera cheat will get you 360/180 vision.

mfberg

[katank]

charge bonus does occur in any terrain although it's tougher in the forests.

the unit must be above a certain speed threshhold to achieve charge.

every time it tries to go around a friendly unit, trees, or fights an enemy, its speed drops and when the speed falls below the threshold, it loses charge bonus.

thus, you need to charge for a longer distance in the woods to gain the charge bonus.

i also find it difficult to fight in forests.

I usually have 5-6 units with their backs facing each other and let them fight in hold-hold to make sure my center holds.

in prolonged melee, militia sarges are quite good.

their only problem is being flanked as their' morale is low. the maintaining a closed turtle formation will prevent enemy flanking.

I tend have a few other units that have 1.5 ranks and I keep them in wedge nearby to slam into flanks or rear and then switch to close for maximum killing effect.

this method can destroy just about anything.

militia is your best friend as the HRE. especially against foolish French royals who imeptuously charge to their deaths in the forest.

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (katank @ June 17 2004,18:25)]militia is your best friend as the HRE. especially against foolish French royals who imeptuously charge to their deaths in the forest.
man i love it when that happens

[Red Harvest]

The main problem with forest battles is that the AI can "see" everything as soon as it happens. On the other hand, the human can't see squat. I lose whole units this way...never even knowing they have been attacked. Forests are one situation where the AI has a large advantage. Makes up somewhat for it being so inept in many other situations.

This is similar to the problem with the AI instantaneously issuing orders to everyone. It isn't hampered by the interface. Hence...the use of "pause."

[katank]

true enough.

but frequently they have such a poor unit mix and poor knowledge of tactics that you win regardless.

ever tried using the scroll wheel to adjust camera height?

I find a higher camera can let me see units better in the forest if I'm looking down at them.

[Iashiii]

I had a bad experience in a forest once. Playing as Byzantines, I invaded Norway, with an army mainly composed of Kataphraktoi and Byz Cav. On the Strategic map, it looked nice and flat, and open Unfortunately, the map I got was dominated by a large hill in its centre, covered by a forest. Oh well, I thought, it'll be a little messy, but I'll win. Well I did, but only just. My cav was massacred by those pesky woodsmen, I must have lost 4 whole units of Kats, whilst the losses of woodsmen were relatively few. I eventually won through my extra manoeuverability, outflanking the rebels, but it certainly taught me to respect the power of the forest

[katank]

yep, axemen, swordsmen, or militia are all right at home in the forest, protected from their nemises archers and cav.

try some bonused woodsmen and halbs in forests against the golden horde and you'll be surprised how cheaply you can knock out those pesky horsies they field.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (Red Harvest @ June 17 2004,20:24)]Hence...the use of "pause."
Hence, the use of "agent orange".

Oops, wrong Total War.

[son of spam]

I wish there was some type of cheat to let you see through trees or something. Everytime I want to see anything in a forest, I have to pause and zoom in so low that it looks like some fps. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

I love these new smilies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[hoom]

I use high camera in forrests, you get a bit better angle down.

My main issue is the zones of 'cant click & drag here' around each tree that make setting up & managing a formation really hard.

In my experience, Woodsmen charging down a hill don't need a forrest to litter the ground with a bunch of dead Kataphractoi.

Favourite forrest battle was as Byzantines, with a massively outnumbered & inferior quality army against pretty much the whole Horde.
I just camped everyone in the woods on hold.
The Kahn prodded the centre with about 20 Heavy Cav losses, fired a bunch of arrows into the trees, flanked to my right, found no weakness, flanked left, prodded with about 5 more Heavy Cav losses, then finally just turned around and went back home to his wives http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[soibean]

in response to arrrse and his favorite forest battle:

I was playing as the danes against the HRE and I attacked a force of 1500 HRE, mostly spearmen, urban militia, and peasants, with a force of 500, 4 units of royal nights and the rest vikings.

it seemed like I was playing in a forest clearing because just about a complete circle around me except for little openings here and there were solid forests.
Anyway I began marching my men towards the line of defenders and noticed that 1 enemy unit of spearmen was off to the side... so I sent some viking landsmen at it. As the rest of my army reached enemy lines, 6 units of spearmen emerged from the woods next to the lone viking landsmen (like it was stated above the computer has the advantage in the forest and I didnt see them even though my guy walked through some forest himself) and they totally crushed them within a minute... I had to split my already downtrodden and fewer forces in half to fight the 7 units of spearman at my rear and the remaining units of urban militia, peasants, and royal knights...

I pulled the same trick they did. I launched some royal knights into the forest, waited until their line was over extending onto my own in an effort to collapse upon it... and my cavalry did just that, collapse upon them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

I just thought that was sweet

[hoom]

One that really gave me the heebie jeebies was an early battle dunno what catholic faction but I was attacking an outnumbered enemy with a typical early army (mostly archers, spears & urban militia) so I was quite blasé about the battle.
The enemy was hiding in a forrest at the top of a hill, so I marched on up to the forrest & was about to charge on in, when the AI up & charged its whole army out at my leading units.
My poor spears got the fright of their life as they were expecting some cowering peasants hiding in the trees not a fierce spearman charge, so they turned and ran instantly, running into my advancing archers & militia who likewise turned & ran.
My whole army was in a chain rout before their first unit even cleared the woods, leaving a rather bewildered prince to face a thousand odd rampaging spearmen & peasants.
Now, he was obviously a bit on the slow side (inbred perhaps?) but he got the idea pretty quickly & fled back to the castle too.

Suffice it to say that I now approach a hidden army with a lot more caution http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif