Dev diary

[alman9898]

here (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/rometotalwar/preview_6101005.html)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Quote[/b] ]Drowning has recently been added as well, for the very rare circumstance where a soldier falls into the water.



That will do for me The only thing that would top that is men falling off cliffs or mountains. This game will rock, lets end the debate now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The Black Ship]

"I'll be leading you from the rear"...he, he the cowardice vice in action I can only guess at what some of the speeches for the other "unseemly" vices will be like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Basileus]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif gimme the game now you pricks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[TigerVX]

Quote[/b] (The Black Ship @ June 21 2004,18:39)]"I'll be leading you from the rear"...he, he the cowardice vice in action I can only guess at what some of the speeches for the other "unseemly" vices will be like http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
The "Strange" vices speeches should be extremely funny XD. It seems like they're putting alot of effort on the game, I can't wait for Roman Legions to cross a bridge and send my Chariots smashing into them, scythe's wiping them from the bridge and drowning in the water.

[RisingSun]

3 new screenies, too.

[crazyviking03]

GIVE ME NOW1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[Spino]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ June 21 2004,19:02)]
Quote[/b] ]Drowning has recently been added as well, for the very rare circumstance where a soldier falls into the water.



That will do for me The only thing that would top that is men falling off cliffs or mountains. This game will rock, lets end the debate now http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I posted this over in the Legiontotalwar forums....

Drowning soldier animations are a nice little touch but I find it difficult to accept the fact that CA actually wasted time and resources on a feature that will rarely, if ever, be seen by most people. What is the point to such a feature? Are they implying that soldiers can swim as well? Does this imply that every other living thing in the game (horses dogs, pigs & elephants) can drown as well?

I would really prefer to have one of the developers mention that they added a clever little feature or routine to the strategic and tactical AI which helps it better manage its forces on the battlefield or create more efficient naval trade routes.

Seriously kids, drowning soldiers and jumping horses are all well in fine but the surprise and 'cool factor' of these features will wear off after awhile. The longevity of the game will greatly depend on the quality of the game's AI opponent. I won't be too thrilled if I see RTW's tactical AI making the same dumb mistakes it made in the previous TW games.

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] (Spino @ June 22 2004,12:02)] What is the point to such a feature?
It's called "polish". And i don't mean anything with regard to people from Poland. When the devs add little things like this to the game, it increases immersion and heightens the experience. That much, i would have thought, seemed obvious. And no, "game polish" and "good AI" are not mutually exclusive terms, contrary to popular opinion.

[Spino]

Quote[/b] (Lord Aeon @ June 22 2004,13:09)]
Quote[/b] (Spino @ June 22 2004,12:02)] What is the point to such a feature?
It's called "polish". And i don't mean anything with regard to people from Poland. When the devs add little things like this to the game, it increases immersion and heightens the experience. That much, i would have thought, seemed obvious. And no, "game polish" and "good AI" are not mutually exclusive terms, contrary to popular opinion.
I won't disagree with you there but the rank and file of the 'More Historical Accuracy If You Please' crowd might have a thing or two to say about 'polish' with the intent of making the game more realistic. If we're talking about polish why not properly model the two handed grip and animation used by all pike units of the period instead of the one hand, underhanded animation currently in place for ALL spear units? How about the proper overhand grip and jabbing motion used by hoplites and other single hand spear units? It would have taken less effort to model those things I mentioned instead of actually developing the code and animations necessary to depict a drowning soldier.

'Game polish' and 'good AI' may bot be mutually exclusive terms but we've heard very little about the latter. In fact the only time I can recall someone from CA commenting about the AI was several months ago when a developer (I forget who) said the tactical AI was about the same as it was in Medieval Some of us were not too thrilled when we heard that.

[Blodrast]

well, this game will not be a _PERFECT_ simulation of reality in a zillion years, with thousands of people working on it.
We'll always be able to say "well, this thing isn't accurate enough, it was really the other way around".
Is that really the point ? Since when do we demand perfection ? I actually think that it's great that the devs go to such great lengths exactly for the purposes of increasing the feeling of immersion. Yes, of course it's a minor feature, I definitely agree with that, but it makes the game all the more realistic. I'm sure none of the people bent on accuracy would have liked, for instance, a mass of flaming whatever (pigs in this case, but the same argument can be applied to flaming arrows) NOT setting things on fire.

With the risk of repeating myself, I believe it's great that they are going to such lengths in creating a deeper feeling of immersion. And even though one single touch like this doesn't count for much, all of them added together will surely contribute to the overall feeling of the game.

[andrewt]

I think this feature is great, even though it is just a minor feature. However, I'd be disappointed if they added this but didn't correct the way spears and pikes are used. I'm not a programmer by any stretch but it seems to me that adding the code for drowning would be as difficult as adding the code for proper usage of spears and pikes. I'm sure even people who know nothing about history know how ridiculous it looks for any person to use a 4-5 m pike in just one hand.

I think what Spino is getting at is prioritizing. You have to polish the things people see more often than the things they don't see as often. Same thing with the flaming arrows. Here's to hoping that they act like flaming arrows instead of rocket grenades.

[Duke John]

It's a great feature if it's used to the degree that I want. In lots of battles in the Wars of the Roses (and I guess a whole lot of other battles too), the fleeing troops tried to cross a river and many of them drowned. In M:TW the soldiers run along the river until they find a bridge. If in R:TW this feature means that the soldier try to cross the river but drown then it's simply fantastic

Cheers, Duke John

[andrewt]

Well, if that's the case, they should then add a feature where troops in bridge battles will try to attempt to push other troops off the bridge. That's going to be fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

Hey, what happened to the devil and evil smile emoticon? I tried to look for it.

[Hurin_Rules]

I think some units will actually be able to swim, so it might not be a total waste of resources.

One thing that worried me a bit was the last paragraph, where they said they were going to eliminate some of the buttons from MTW. All of those were useful, though I never used the multiple-unit formations ones. But what are they going to eliminate?

[Leet Eriksson]

Vice related speach will be a nice addition http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I'd like to see speeches of generals with mad vices "Everyone paint yourselves blueWhile your doing that,i'll take my time sucking on a horse shoe.." http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Armchair Athlete]

lol, it will be interesting if they still have the incest vice, imagine the speech for that before a battle;

"OK men, the barbarian hordes are appraoching, but do not fear, their disciple is nothing compared to ours, therefore I have decided to let the captain take charge for this battle while I go to the command tent and strengthen my Father - Daughter bond".

[hoom]

Quote[/b] ]Everyone paint yourselves blueErm, sounds like the speach of a sane Brit general to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[scooter_the_shooter]

Quote[/b] (Armchair Athlete @ June 22 2004,20:07)]lol, it will be interesting if they still have the incest vice, imagine the speech for that before a battle;

"OK men, the barbarian hordes are appraoching, but do not fear, their disciple is nothing compared to ours, therefore I have decided to let the captain take charge for this battle while I go to the command tent and strengthen my Father - Daughter bond".
that... would be creepy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] ]It's a great feature if it's used to the degree that I want. In lots of battles in the Wars of the Roses (and I guess a whole lot of other battles too), the fleeing troops tried to cross a river and many of them drowned.


Not only that, but it would influence the overall strategic movement alot. Also, e.g. the dacians frequently crossed the Danube for pillage raids into roman Thrace in winter, when it was frozen. In one of their expeditions, a group of cathaphracts joined them. They were so heavy in armour and all the the ice broke and a great many drowned. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[The_Emperor]

Oh man this feature is going to be great.

In MTW during bridge battles the bridge itself can get so cramped that nothing can get across... Now there could be a serious possibility of men falling off in the push.

I can just imagine sending cavalry charging over the brige through the enemy and knocking men off the bridge as they rush forwards http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_charge.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Captain Fishpants]

Mad general speeches: these are in, and a great deal of evil fun was had on my part by knowing that the actors had to make sense of the wurblings I'd produced for them to declaim http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

No sucking on horseshoes this time though. Oh no. That was a purely Medieval madness. Given that you could not only be mad, but be in constant communion with the god of your choice, the great and not-so-good could be very mad in the ancient world. Very mad. Oh yes.

[Nowake]

Salve, thanks for the input. If you could answer to one question though: can our armies cross frozen rivers in winter? Will those river even be frozen as they should? (of course, not in regions like Greece http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[shingenmitch2]

Captn' Fish --
Any comment on the 2-handed pikes or overhand thrusting spear issue?

Spino is dead-on.

I find drowning, jumping horses are all very well and good. I really do think they are nice touches that will add polish.

BUT for heaven's sake, do that AFTER getting the important animations down -- like soldiers using their weapons properly.

Maybe I've only seen early versions and these things are all fixed in which case these new features a big http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif, but if not, then I give them all the big GAH

[Spino]

Quote[/b] (andrewt @ June 22 2004,15:24)]...I think what Spino is getting at is prioritizing. You have to polish the things people see more often than the things they don't see as often. Same thing with the flaming arrows. Here's to hoping that they act like flaming arrows instead of rocket grenades.
Exactly. I don't have anything against little drowning men, jumping horses, etc. That's great stuff and I love that CA is paying attention to the little things. It's just hard for me to accept these extras when other stuff that I consider to be more important (i.e. AI, proper animations for two handed and one handed spear units, etc.) is not being addressed.

On the other hand I sincerely hope I am wrong and these things are being addressed but CA hasn't told us about it. Based upon what I've seen and read over the last several months I am inclined to believe otherwise.

[hoom]

Yeah, please get the spear animations right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

[Armchair Athlete]

awesome, mad speeches are in, that may actually give us a reason to keep those crazy generals we usually just disband in MTW, send them on suicide attacks and laugh at their whacky speeches

[shingenmitch2]

I understand that CA is working hard to create an immersive "world" for peeps to play in. I think that their effort has been excellent and I appreciate it.

(here comes the but) But, at its core, TW is a historical combat game. The "world" is merely the stage on which the game is fought. The game, really being the battles -- for that is the only aspect of TW that really shines above other games. Thus it should strive first and foremost to get the combat correct.

The focus should therefore needs to be on getting the armies, their soldiers, their weapons, and armor correct and having the soldiers and army formations employ their arms and armor correctly (both visually in cinematics, and actually in the statistics/combat engine modeling).

I find all these "niceties and bells&whistles" things that could only have been a distraction from CA refining & perfecting the game's core.

--------

Even some of the "eye candy" seems to have been rushed. Ex. The generals on their "rearing horses." Nice idea, but someone should have spent 2 hours at a horse farm and watch someone actually do it. From what I've seen recently, it looks like the animators "best guessed it." When a horse rears, the rider has to lean forward toward the horses neck or else fall off. Watch the angle of the rider in the animations -- they would never be able to recover from how they sit flailing back like that.

[longjohn2]

Actually doing a two handed pike grip is quite hard, as every single animation a soldier has would need to be redone. There are also code issues relating to placement of hands and the angle of the pike. Adding single spot animations is trivial in comparison.

Hoplite phalanxes are tricky too. If you use an overarm grip, then your spearpoint is pointing down when you hold the spear vertically while standing or marching. Most people would think this looks silly. Also a high grip would make the spears much more visible than they are now, and create all sorts of problems with them poking through other peoples heads etc. Fixing those sort of collision problems would be a nightmare, and have major performance implications too.

[The Wizard]

But it would be so much better for a game which aims to be a realistic simulation of combat of the age...



~Wiz

[RisingSun]

You think they're aiming at that anymore? Pike grips are nothing compared to certain other problems they have if they are going for realism. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

Thanks for the info, longjohn2

Seems to be more difficult than I thought to implement it
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif


Cheers

OA

[Barkhorn1x]

Yes, thanks for the info. - this does appear to be a complex issue.

Barkhorn.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (RisingSun @ June 24 2004,17:28)]You think they're aiming at that anymore? Pike grips are nothing compared to certain other problems they have if they are going for realism. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
You think? What is aiming for the perfect outfitting of a 3rd century phalangite if he isn't even holding his sarissa correctly?

But I understand CA's predicament. Still, it would be such a pity...



~Wiz

[shingenmitch2]

Thanks for the response LongJohn.

I believe you when you say that getting those things would be difficult to correct. I'm truly sorry to hear that. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

I guess that is why I wish there had been a strong focus on getting the fundamentals of ancient warfare correct from the outset. If the phalanx is so hard to model, it makes me want to cry when I think about all the time that must have been spent figuring out the pigs or women or even the elephants. The phalanx is an absolutely core unit for about 4-5 factions, and it stinks that it had to share production time with other totally fringe units.

I guess I just need to go get... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[Kraxis]

Quote[/b] (longjohn2 @ June 24 2004,10:57)]Actually doing a two handed pike grip is quite hard, as every single animation a soldier has would need to be redone. There are also code issues relating to placement of hands and the angle of the pike. Adding single spot animations is trivial in comparison.

Hoplite phalanxes are tricky too. If you use an overarm grip, then your spearpoint is pointing down when you hold the spear vertically while standing or marching. Most people would think this looks silly. Also a high grip would make the spears much more visible than they are now, and create all sorts of problems with them poking through other peoples heads etc. Fixing those sort of collision problems would be a nightmare, and have major performance implications too.
Thanks longjohn...

This is actually what I thought all along, at least until I saw the aux infantry of Adrianople using the overhand grip... Well noticed is more of a word. And while I'm most certain that people here would prefer the 'stupid' point-in-the-ground scenario (me included) I can understand it from the point of view to get new players (I can just imagine the laughs of my friends when they would see that, and then the lengthy connonade of insults and such).
While I'm sure you must have thought of it, why not just have the troops have the spear in the overhand position all the while, or rotate it when going from standing to marching? Or simply have points at both ends (as the spears seems to have in the discriptions)?

While I'm sad at the response, I'm glad as well. No more not knowing why such a 'simple' task hasn't been done... I hope this will be accepted by all.

[shingenmitch2]

Longjohn,

If the code is calculating the angle of the spear-tip and placement of hands, does this also mean that the game is calculating where a sheild is angled?

My question relates to the phalanx. In the real phalanx, the front rankers' shields are held steady facing out toward the enemy presenting a fairly unbroken wall. This also means that soldiers won't charge out beyond their line to stab someone in order to keep the formation intact and thus gain the defensive bonus.

In the animations I've seen, I see phalangites stabbing and having their shields turn sideways. In effect opening a huge protection gap. Is the game engine actually considering that soldier more vulnerable? And are the soldiers of the phalanx that I see charging foward to stab also more exposed and not getting the phalanx bonuses?

------------

P.S. You all have been very nice to us. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
I hope you guys understand some of our frustrations and criticisms stem from the fact that we have such high expectations for Rome.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]Actually doing a two handed pike grip is quite hard, as every single animation a soldier has would need to be redone. There are also code issues relating to placement of hands and the angle of the pike.
This sounds like very bad news http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sad.gif
I can only hope that modding units is not restricted to changing skins but also allows redoing the animations. If this is all hardcoded then it would severly hamper mods outside the Ancient period.

Or can we change the animations?

[BobTheTerrible]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Ok, this is crazy. In the middle of a huge intense battle you arent going to stop for a minute and say, "Hey, that guy is only holding his spear in one hand" To me, as long as it functions as it should, the graphics don't matter. If the game wil actually take into account the positions of the hands/limbs etc instead of seeing the unit as just a unit, then yes it could matter to gameplay, but I mean just niggling away that they are only carrying the spear in one hand is gatting crazy.

As I've said before, there's nothing forcing you to buy the game. If you don't like it, then don't buy it. Or even mod it. CA can do whatever it wants with this game, it has no obligation to historical accuracy or making sure that the facial hair of a certain unit is how men of the region looked. I'd say 80% of the people who buy this game don't give a damn whether a unit holds the spear in one hand or not.

CA has already shown us this won't be a historical game by adding the flaming pigs and screaming women, and the whole egypt ordeal. I hate to burst all your bubbles, but it is NOT historcially accurate. Rome" Total War will be a strategic/tactical battle game with Rome as the background. It is not a historically accurate battle sim. As long as the AI is good then the game sets out what it wants to accomplish.

We should be focusing on more important issues, such as the AI. If the AI will be what is was in medieval, it will not be much of an improvement. To me it matters more whether I can be challenged against a decent opponent(s) than whether I will be facing a unit of single-handed pike carriers on the battlefield, but that's just me.

I don't like to sound mean or like I am trying to start a flame war, but I am tired of looking at these boards and seeing complaints about such specific things that only 5% or less of the people who will play the game will ever notice. But then again, I suppose if you had nothing to complain about all these boards will be empty.

And if you take all the stuff I said above too seriously, then don't listen to me. I'm only a clown.

/ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Aaaawesome The more realistic, the better... of course that includes historical accuracy...

[hoom]

That the animations would need to be done again to make a proper two handed phalanx grip is merely a failure of CA to do their historic research &/or planning for it in the first place http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

[The Wizard]

Look, for a game of which the battles are the main attraction, and which prizes itself on being an accurate simulation of 3rd century BC to early 1st century AD combat, I would find it quite important if at least the soldiers act correctly on the battlefield.

This means not only sarissas being held correctly while fighting, but also things like Persians freaking out at the Macedonian warcry of alalalalai, Romans (amongst others http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) freaking out at naked Celts charging into them, heavy infantry acting realistically upon heavy cavalry closing in, etc.

Note on the last bit: An example would be the reaction of legionaries on approaching Parthian/Armenian cataphracts. To properly take the charge, they would need to get into a close formation (good training would learn them this, and Roman infantry had good training), thus exposing themselves to concentrated fire from Parthian/Armenian missiles. This would create a dilemma between close or loose formations, which eventually can be exploited. Should a general choose to switch between the two formations (loose/close) often, the troops would be highly unnerved and break even at the ambling charge of the cataphracts.

P.S. I once again will state that I understand CA's predicament and accept it, even though it is a pity that it is so hard to do.

Still, the question that arises is:

Why didn't you try to implement it in the first place? Is it that hard to animate correctly?



~Wiz

[shingenmitch2]

Why didn't you try to implement it in the first place? Is it that hard to animate correctly?

exactly. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
When ur revamping the entire visuals of the game with a brand new 3d engine, it's a bummer that these animations wouldn't be among the first things on the "to do" list.

Kinda makes me wonder what peeps would think of EA Sports doing NHL Hockey and spending all the time on crowd animations, the zamboni ice cleaner or dances after goals and not getting the skating motion and stick handling of the players correct.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I couldn't give a rats arse about it. I'm tired of all the judgements about it, lets play it first I doubt anyone will moan about it once we play it for ourselves and be dazzled by one of the greatest games ever made http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Steppe Merc]

Thanks for responding about the weapons. While I wish it could have been right, its quibbling now. I guess this means that the lancers will also use it one handed, even though they used it two handed? Also, will the horse archers act correctly rather than the bizzare static shooting going on before (shooting on the move, etc.)?
Again, thanks for responding. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[shingenmitch2]

NHL 2004 has nothing to do with hockey man... it's just a vid-game. Who cares if they have seven men on the ice per team and some of the teams and players don't exist? I've said it before... more = good, realism > gameplay. The 3-D spin-o-rama and and rapid-fire puck shooting just rocks, rocks, rocks
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[The Wizard]

Gotta luv your sarcasm, mitch. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif