The Siskinies

[Brianbbj]

I have just tryed it.

One hoplits beat one polemiste. but not two at the same time
One Geometric Hoplite cost 525
and one Polemiste cost 325 (2 cost 650).

Så two polemist should beat one Hoplite, and i must say that the Polemiste are taking heavy casualtys also, and when i tested both polemiste had used all there javalins on the hoplite units, weakening it a little.
so game balance wise there should be no problems.
i would love to get your save game to try that battle out.

-----------

now for something completely different.....
I LOVE POLEMISTE units. why can't i keep them in Pro-classic and classic? they are the perfect flank defenders for the hoplites. those Peltasts amateur stick throwers are clowns in comparison.

Well..... i can't have everything.....

I think it could be cool for one of the greek faction, who don't got special hoplite units, to be able to keep the Polemiste units also in Pro-classic, just to make more differences in the greek factions.
Could one of the culture´s(factions) historical vice have this? or saying in another word, could the known history support this in anyway?

[komninos]

Hi Brianbbj,

Since the late Mycenaean age and as there power was growing the Greeks changed there way of fighting concentrating to the heavy armoured troops. These troops were named Promahi meaning first line troops. After the Dorian descent these Promahi became the standard troop type. There evolution were the early Hoplites.
These Promahi are the Polemiste unit in the game (Polemiste means warriors so it is rather generic term for a unit) and the Dark age hoplites are direct descendants of the Polemiste unit done by the Argian king Fidon and quickly were adopted by all Greek city states.
That is why you don’t have them in later ages. If I could I would generate an event of First Hoplitic unit forming and after 20 years all Polemiste would be upgraded to Hoplites and you would be able to built hoplites. During that period the Argians would be the only one having them. But I can’t. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

There are techniques to bit the hoplites and have to do with the number of heavy missile troops you have and the number of Hoplites in the enemy. Basically use the Polemiste and two rows all in attack. While the first engages the enemy the other cuts them down with javelins and then flanks so a 2 to 1 combination is the best.

[Omegamann]

Not realy a bug report but a reading recomendation for everyone interrested in the period:
Im currently rereading the The History of Herodotus
LINK (http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_herodotus.htm) and it deals exactly with the the Geometric and Pro Classic Timeperiods in HTW.
Im currently at the point where Herodotus describes how Croesus lost his Lydian Empire to Cyrus and the Persians.

Also there is a brief account on the pre Trojan period in which Heodotus describes the Coastal Greeks living as seafaring raiders, so the Viking Greeks in Troy might not be so far of http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The best thing is that I can now look at the HTW map and actualy see were then people and places are that Herodotus writes about. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Rosacrux]

Dear Beta Testers

If you can be so kind, I'd love to hear comments on the relative difficulty of each starting position/faction. I have re-read the faction descriptions and I think the best thing would be to amend the descriptions (at least the lead) to fit in the particular timeframe (era) and tactical situation (starting position) for each faction.

I can't possibly play all factions, so I was wondering if you could help me with this task, by providing some comments on how you are fairing with the starting point of the faction you've chosen, how relatively easy or hard it is to grow strong, if you face imminent threats and which etc.

Thank you Your help will be highly appreciated http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Zanderpants]

I find that the Corinthians are an interesting faction to play as. In the beginning, you have to work very hard to get on top of the Argians and Lakedemonians, and it's quiet hard. However, if you're able to defeat them both and gain rich island provinces to the west of your starting position, then you're pretty much set. With a large trade income, you can basically turn the southern area of Greece into a large fortress. The Corinthians have no special units http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif ,which makes it a bit difficult to survive in the later time periods because of all of the faction specific units on the map. However, with a good commander, they can still win battles against the other Greek factions, it just takes a bit more thought. I found that it was absolutely vital to defeat the Lakedemonians in the Geometric period, before they got their mighty Spartans. I let them survive in one campaign until the Archaic age and they just trashed me with their special units. It would be nice to see a Corinthian-specific unit though...... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[insolent1]

Rosacrux

Argians

Geometric - Probably the best faction of the era. Start off with 3 provinces which means that you have more troops than the other surrounding factions. A quick war with Sparta is easy & then you only have to deal with the Corinthians in the Peloponnese. The Argian over sea colony is in an excellent position for further expansion. The kings & heir units are DA_hoplites instead of polmieste.

Proclassical - Good starting position with plenty of troops. You control some of the richest islands & Argolis has a very good title. Argian hoplites need only fear Spartan hoplites & a war with Sparta is imminent. Once Sparta has been dealt with the Corinthians shouldn't be to much trouble.

Classical - Weak starting position, few troops & your provinces are disconnected by 3-4 sea zones. Sparta attacks first turn most of the time & while they can be beaten back its costly. Even when successful its very hard to go on the offensive due to your lack of troops, sieges & loss of sea control(big spartan fleets). Its impossible to reinforce from your other province early on(when you most need it).

[youone]

Rosacrux
Aetolians

Classical era
You have a steady income, build up your troops quickly and look to the north ,easy expansion is possible overcome the Illyrians, increase your taxes and trade, now is the time to spread eastward conquer the Corinthian’s and then the Thessalians ,but always watch and build your sea power .
You now have a vast supply of trade and man power use it wisely and you will sit the crown upon your head, foolishly waste your resources and you will kneel at your foes feet.

Geometric Era
You start with a well defended position good trade and warriors
Easy pickings surround you use quick expansion, increase your resources and pool of troops, don’t sit back and wait,
Safe guard your outpost states look north for the Illyrians eastward for the Thessalians who you must treat with respect.
Only a fool sits and waits for his foe to grow stronger, take confidence in your quick early conquests and rise the Aetolian flag over Greece.

I found the Histophor Hippis a bit of a let down it costs 1425 F for these warriors; they didn’t perform much better than the Hippis at 775 F, in one flanking movement the Histophor hippis where cut down by the foes hippis, from their description I was expecting more from these elite horse warriors.
I haven’t found any more major bugs,
The maps are great not unlike Greece itself ,but just one comment in a series of battles I fought the Illyrians over a bridge ,not very exciting I held the bridge against 2000 Illyrians to a lost of 300 Greeks, it would of made the battle better if I had to defend more than one crossing.
Archers still seemed to have to much ammo and men
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[youone]

No one up for a online test http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[BarkingBeagle]

Rosacrux

Thessalians...

Geometric: Very hard, but not impossible. I've yet to finish a campaign, but if you focus on building emissaries, bribing rebels and acquiring rebel provinces, you'll be tough enough to defend yourself by the time the Aetolians or the Thracians attack you. Make alliances, etc.

Proclassic: Very, very hard. I've rarely gotten past a hundred years or so. At first it's fairly simple, with a lineup of tough battles; the Thracians or the Aetolians attack almost immediately, and the only solution is to go completely on the offensive, attacking their provinces even when you don't think you can hold them. You keep some that way, and stop them from getting a chance to attack your main provinces. Once you finally get peace with them, build up fleets, etc. Lydians generally ally themselves with me and help wipe out the Thracians, which leaves me with most of their provinces until the Lydians decide they want my Asia minor provinces, too, and attack. Game over.

Classic: I'll admit, I haven't played too much in this period, as I've been fascinated with attempting to win in the Proclassic period. First impressions were that it might or might not be easier than the Proclassic period, but definitely not as easy as Geomatric is.

[Rosacrux]

Very informative lads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Keep 'em coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-juggle.gif

[Zanderpants]

Just noticed, the support cost for Armed slave rebels is 780 per unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

When I build an agora, the buulding completed message says it's a drinking hall.

[insolent1]

Quote[/b] (Zanderpants @ June 10 2004,19:57)]Just noticed, the support cost for Armed slave rebels is 780 per unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

When I build an agora, the buulding completed message says it's a drinking hall.
The rebelling citizen is even more costly at 800 a year. I've seen the Persians get slave rebels as part of their faction reappearance & they also get them from rebel provinces that join their cause. Can't be very good for the cause with that kinda upkeep.
On another note, i'm getting near the end of a Proclassical Argian campaign. The Lydians wiped out Persians in the first few years then started invading the northern part of the map. Then all the AI factions attacked them & Persians came back & wiped out Lydians, then the Lydians came back & with the help of the Aetolians have wiped out the Persians. At the moment the Lyndians & Aetolians are at war & the Persians have just come back http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif
In all my campaigns the Aetolians always become one of the top factions & thats in all eras. Maybe they have to many resources compared to most of the other Greek city states & a much more enviable position.

[insolent1]

Quote[/b] (youone @ June 10 2004,00:49)]I found the Histophor Hippis a bit of a let down it costs 1425 F for these warriors; they didn’t perform much better than the Hippis at 775 F, in one flanking movement the Histophor hippis where cut down by the foes hippis, from their description I was expecting more from these elite horse warriors.
I agree, these guys suck compared to hippis especially since hippis can be produced at 2 valour in 1 turn compared to 1 valour in 2 turns for Xistophoroi_hippis. The Macedonian Companions are even worse value even though they have good stats but 1,850 & 3 years to build is a bit much.

edit: The main difference I noticed is when you dismount them the Xistophoroi_hippis & Companions dismount to late Hoplites but the Hippis dismount to Cl_Hoplites with no shields. Theres no difference between these 2 hoplites yet the dismounted hippi has a much weaker defence than the dismounted Xistophoroi_hippis or Companions.

[youone]

When i was picked for the beta testa for the Aetolians
I knew from v 2.1 when I played with the same state that conquest was in my hands. Yes you may be right
insolent1
They may have to much resources It's like the I found the Histophor Hippis a bit of a let down it costs 1425 F for these warriors[I]
When I beta test I don't look at or alter any game files
I just report what I find I Know as much about Greek history as the next player so I don't know what the game designer want's The aetolians may have had a strong position at this stage in history and the designer has got it right YES the Aetolians are one of the easiest states to play with, I myself find Athens alot harder
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[youone]

Rosacrux
Can I e-mail some of these great shots to you the rest of the following will just drop when they see these pics
you deserve a big hand shake for all the work the mod team have done

[insolent1]

Loaded (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=83321)

Revolt in Chalcidice
no preview (http://www.imagedump.com/index.cgi?pick=get&tp=83322)

Also assaulting Scupi castle dosen't have a preview

[komninos]

Hi all beta testers,
Apparently I forgot to add the Events file in the original deployment of the beta I have sent it to Zimoa so you will stop seeing errors in event. BUT in case they don’t stop please can you make a list of all translation (from tags to text) you can find.

Thanks

[Antalis::]

To all betatesters:


If you have a new test version: Please don´t copy it simply over the old test version.
Also: Don´t use the uninstall function and copy the new version over the old testversion.

Use always a new install of MTW+VI for it.

If not, then some type of files could be too many or too less in your HTW install.

[Omegamann]

I als have some missing map previews when fighting in the north east of the map

[Antalis::]

Have you used a fresh new install for the new testversion?


btw: When do you have this missing map previews?: While attacking a province or while attacking a castle?

I guess with a castle? right?
And I also guess that you should install the new test version again over a really new MTW+VI install, if you havn´t.
Then all should work fine.

NEVER install it simply over the older testversion(s)

That you don´t get some mapimages is because we deleted castlehilly08 and its mapimages.
It was a mistake, that it was in the older testversions.
There were no mapimages for temperate for it.
So if you got no mapimage then I guess you will get this castle.
But if you install all over a new fresh MTW+VI install, then this castle is not a problem anymore.

Check if you have castlehilly08 in your maps folder (battle/maps): If so, delete all castlehilly08 files there.


Cheers:

Antalis http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[Brianbbj]

ok People

Have anyone won a campaign in Geo-metric?
I have finaly about 75% of the map with the Thessilans, with full garriosons and 3 full stacks in each province.
Im playing en Easy difficulty, as normal diff. is unplayable with the Thessialns.

Then suddenly the TIME OF REBELS begin, 6-8 rebellions EACH turn, with 3-5 full stacks on hoplites in each rebelion that about 28 full stacks of rebels each turn.....come on, when having this for 20 years you get bored....low tax level and all. having about 120%+ loyality in each province before the TIME OF THE REBELS.

Have anyone seen this? hacve anyone played to the end? And i want truthfully answers?

And i have in this campaign also seen the "Goldon Horde Bug" in effect, i had the Map cheat on and i was playing just to see how the faction behaved, then the Lydians has been almost killed off, and then had no islands. they had abotu 15 stacks left in there 8 provinces.
THEN SUDDENLY one of the provences at the east _edge_ of the map had about 50 STACKS OF FULL STRENGTH MIXED HIGH HONOR LYDIAN UNITS.
not mercenarys.

To the developers: maybe the "golden horde" event uses specific province numbers, when the horde appear.

Next i tryed to evoke multiple cheats in a new game, just to see, who won if turned on auto play.
NOBODY WIN when a faction has grown REAL mighty and you think "they a gonna win now" then they have MAJOR rebellions killind there empire in 3-4 turns.
i seen it abotu 10 times now in the same game, with different faction.

As i see it, there is a End game bug, remeber i played it wothout any cheat and it happend also.
The bug is that when you have conqured enough provinces, then the rebels show up, and kills you empire, and you can't do anything about it, i've seen rebellion with 12000 elite hoplites in a single province.

After this i quit playing, one rebellion being as powerfull my faction....hello on easy diffeculty.
this combined with the Golden Horde bug, just simply make playing the game to the end waste of time.

[insolent1]

Quote[/b] (Antalis:: @ June 12 2004,15:16)]Have you used a fresh new install for the new testversion?

My mistake Antalis, I was going through all my tga's & noticed that revolt in chalcidice but it was from the previous version. I just had a revolt in chalcidice & it had a preview of the map http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

[Antalis::]

What do you think?

Are the unit scales (not the unit size) too tiny?

Are the units in comparrision to castles, trees, mountains and so on too small?

Compare them with things in the landscape.

Should we increase them/make them bigger?

[Zanderpants]

I think that the Elephants and chariots should be a bit bigger. I find that the rest of the men are perfectly sized when compared to other objects.

BTW, I know that they're not completed, but I'm reporting it anyway. The Gastraphetes have no weapons when attacking ranged. Also, the "ballista"(Forgot the name) crew has no siege engines.

BrianBBJ I've experienced that in this game and also in the regular MTW. I get that Time of The Rebels thing almost everytime I'm about to win in MTW, with and without cheats.

[Antalis::]

What do you think: Are the men too small in comparision to the wall?: Look:

http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=2&x=13537


I think yes and think we should make them bigger.

I think:

foot units: 120
ponys: 130
cavalry (horses): 140
elephants: 170
Ram: 200


would be very good.

Lets see.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Antalis:: @ June 12 2004,14:07)]I think yes and think we should make them bigger.

I think:
foot units: 120
ponys: 130
cavalry (horses): 140
elephants: 170
Ram: 200
Wow, that´s a tall palisade Yup, IMHO I think the units should be bigger. Are the foots 100 now, so a 20& increase of size is your suggestion?

[Brianbbj]

this TÍME OF THE REBELS

can this be brougt down to a manageable level?

[Antalis::]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ June 12 2004,14:39)]
Quote[/b] (Antalis:: @ June 12 2004,14:07)]I think yes and think we should make them bigger.

I think:
foot units: 120
ponys: 130
cavalry (horses): 140
elephants: 170
Ram: 200
Wow, that´s a tall palisade Yup, IMHO I think the units should be bigger. Are the foots 100 now, so a 20& increase of size is your suggestion?
Yes thats my suggestion.

I think we should do that.


I tested this sizes and it looks much better with this settings in my opinion.

[Omegamann]

@antalis
I always make a copy from my unmodded mTW vi Installation ad then put the HTW installer on this folder.

I dont have any castlehilly8 files in my battle/maps folder

I got the missing preview once before a siege but also once bevore an open battle.

BTW. love the new Maps, though the very hilly maps can be difficult for the AI sometimes.

Will make a screenshot next time and will try to describe the map as I play it.

Cramped deployment also happens once in a while. Though as the humean you can easily use the varius starting formations to get around this, the AI takes a while sometimes to get his troops in order.

I dont have a problem with unit size, as I like the more "epic" look of the big fortifications. (sadly - or luckily - the AI doesnt use the inner circle of the bigger fortifications a lot)

About difficulty:
I am not sure about the Thracians (Geometric/Hard):
Getting a lot of northern provinces from the Illyrian factions is not so difficult, but once you have to cope with Hoplites it gets quite difficult to hold on o your conquests. I guess I will have to dig in and wait for the rhomphaia.
I would suggest "difficult" at least for Geometric.

[Antalis::]

Yes please descripe it and its true that its much more important that you, or whoever has this problems, make screenshots.
But not screenshots like: There is no prviewimage in Crete.
Screenshots of the maps ingame in the battle, not before.
But sure: also say where you got those problem with a previewimage: So in Crete in my example.

So both: 1. A screenshot ingame in battle of the map.
2. Where did you got this missing image and from where did you attack the province.

[BarkingBeagle]

I actually liked the unit size relative to the wall, though I did think it was a bit small -- larger would be better, I guess... it did look a touch odd.

BrianBBJ:

Nope. Never finished as the Thessalians, and I've tried pretty hard. I can't ever completely finish off another faction, either. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

[Brianbbj]

Do other people have problems finishing the game?
Is there an End Game bug, which gives the rebels to much strength?

I have been playing for 12 hours today, trying all sorta things, and i must say that for me the heavy rebel uprising when you have ALOT of the map, simply destroys the fun.

As far i Have been thinking, either you can manualy control the rebel uprising in the files for the Mod, was there not something with that the developers changes the size of needed garrison?.

My other guess is that a rebel uprising get XXX points, much like custom battle, and then the computer buys units. so maybe a fix would be to raise the rebel unit costs(raising cost) ALOT, so that the computer don't get so many units, which make the rebels easyer to handle.

Please developers reply on this.

[Antalis::]

Rebels have a dummy province with 2000 income to make them a stronger factor in the game.

About the scales: Bigger would be better in my opinion. They would fit a bit better to the maps: What do you think komninos, flip, Zimoa, Rosacrux and Sir. Moody?
Should we make them bigger?

[Antalis::]

This is an unofficial test unit prod: Test the scales, if you like them more then the older scales:

There is a small problem that with bigger unit scales, some units with shilds stand to tight together.
But that is not a real problem to solve I guess.


PLEASE make a backup of your hellenic_unit_prod2.


Use this unit_prod2 only for testing the scales.

And use then the other unit_prod2 again.


Extract it to your HTW_maindirectory.

http://max45.250free.com/Hellenic_unit_prod2.rar


Antalis

[Antalis::]

I have to say that we made the units smaller, because we thought that 140 is the limit and we wanted to have huge elephants, but 140 is not the limit we discovered.

So elephants can be huge also if foot units are 120 and horses are 140.

[Omegamann]

The thracian cav problem:
In Geometric:
only thracian cav with javelins can be produced
royal units are thracian cav with rhomphaia but no javelins
when refitting heirs they´get turned into javelin cav

In Pro Classic:
only thracian cav with rhomphaia can be produced, but the king is a cav with javelin unit

I think there might be an error in the assigning of periods to the thracian cav as its obviously a royal unit that is supposed to change with the period

[Brianbbj]

Where does i change the income of the Rebel dummy province?
in the same file as the "normal" provinces?

think i will try a game with a lower income for the rebels, just to be able to finish the game.

does anyone know how the AI controls rebellions and number of rebel units? and more importent can this be modifed?

THE LARGER SIZED UNIT.
I like the larger size models, even if this means that larg shields do overlap. I also think that it gives me more fun to watch the fights now, when i better can see the soldiers.

I found soem real funny thing, when i turn off my AntiVirus program before playing then i get much better graphics in the game....weird, but nice to know.
this does not have anything to do with the mod.

[komninos]

hi all,

I will make the units larger and try to get above the 200 mark in scale for the elephant and Ram.

Charge speed values for hoplites will be decreased and for Pike they will be lowered to a fast walk.

To end the game you do not need the entire map just the Greek world witch is Greece and the Aegean coast line of Asia minor.

[Duke John]

Quote[/b] ]I found soem real funny thing, when i turn off my AntiVirus program before playing then i get much better graphics in the game....weird, but nice to know.
this does not have anything to do with the mod.
The game decides based on your free memory wether it displays high-resolution or low resolution graphics. By turning off AntiVirus you freed memory which was enough for the game to display the better graphics.

[Brianbbj]

weird, i know that my machine is NOT the worlds fastest,
only 900 Mhz and i only got 512mb ram. but should that no be enough, even with AntiVirus.

I still think that the games is way to hard to end with the heavy rebel uprising....12000 elite hoplites....comeon.
Can't you give any hints on how to decrease rebel activity.

[BarkingBeagle]

@Komninos

I used to play around a lot with the unit scales. In my experience, the limit is 215. Go larger than that and it cuts off 215 of the number, so it treats a unit with 240 as a 25.

[komninos]

I know that radius can't get larger than 50 for some reason.
Scale can cause a CTD if it goes more than some value.

[mzocker]

I have got big problems with my PC, so I can't test at the moment. Sorry

[BarkingBeagle]

Scale never caused a CTD for me...it just restarted itself, as I said. Dunno how it was for other people.

[Zanderpants]

Sorry about the lack of posts lately, I've been sick with the stomach flu. I'm back to testing now though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[Zanderpants]

Flip: Yes, the Persian Horse Archers still do the odd zoom-in error in the new version.

[Zanderpants]

When I build a Palaestra, the building completed message says: "Palaestra destroyed". It does get built though.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

To all testers,

Friday i will put up the new test version,so check your mailboxes this weekend

CZoF

[BarkingBeagle]

Woo There go my chances of finishing a game, again Not, of course, that I would be able to. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Brianbbj]

any info what the update, has updated?

PS: i just had another multi rebillion....35 full stacks of valour 3 rebel hoplits..even im my own "home Province"

[Here was a very very stupid comment, Ï regret ever has posted]. sorry

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Quote[/b] ]Hello, have the develepers tryed the game themselves?




???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

No comment......................

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[Brianbbj]

sorry hehe, it was not meant to offend anybody, im just wondered what changed so much from beta version 2.1 to which had a fair level of Rebellion.

sorry again, i think i was in a bad mood when writing the message, becouse i lost yet another game to the super rebels.

[Zanderpants]

Yeah, a report on wht the new version changes would be really nice. Or a list of things that aren't fixed yet so we know what would be needless to report. We know you guys are really busy with it though, so yeah, just commenting. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[Zanderpants]

woohoo New version Can't wait.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[komninos]

Hi all,

I am really in shortage of spare time so this is going to be a quick one.
1. Heavy rebellions did happen at these time but it might be over done in the game and in the mod. So check your provinces and see what is happening. There are a number of buildings that decrease the rebellious level. If you still have problems with the rebels go to the startpos directory and edit the Hellenic files. In the province attributes the last province has a huge income. I have decreased it to 2000 if you have the older version it should be 10000.
2. Unfortunately I can’t make it to have what I wonted to have ready for today and most probably I will not be able during the weekend but I will try to be ready some time next week. It will include a small surprise plus a fix for the rebel army composition.
3. If you still see problems that were there in the previous version and they slipped unnoticed, it would be very helpful if one of you could summaries them in a small list on Tuesday.

Thank you all.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

TO ALL TESTERS

OK Gentlemen the new test version of HTW v3.1 is up,check your mailboxes and good hunting

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[BarkingBeagle]

Downloading now... Will post when I've had a chance to test. I took on a night job a couple of days ago, so I don't have as much time as I once did... still, I'll find some time.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Normally all testers should have recieved my mail if people on the list didn't get his,contact me ASAP to get the mail with instructions and links.

Updated test assignment:

These are the factions that are assigned to the Beta-Testers:

-Maul/Element UK/Blind King of Bohemia:General Testing

-Lord Xelous/Scipio/Thoros of Myr:Atheneans
-Lord BloodyGore/Frodo Lives:Beotians
-Jacko_UK/Nicholas Newinsky III:Macedonians
-Lord Uxbridge/Element UK:Lydians
-BorisPavlovGrozny/Psyco:Persians
-Brianbj/BarkingBeagle:Thessalians
-Nomad/Omegamann:Thracians
-Mzocker/Zanderpants:Corinthians
-Blind King of Bohemia/King Azzole:Spartans(Lakedemonians)
-Blackrogue/Crown of Swords:Peoneans
-Alogic/Gustavo Garriguet:Illyrians
-Boudicea/Insolent 1:Argians
-Octavian/Stu:Phrigians
-HobbyGeneral/Youone:Aetolians

Lordz will only test if they have the time for it.

King Azzole stick with the Spartans.

Gustavo Garriguet is new and i assigned you to the Illyrians.

Maul,Element UK and Blind King of Bohemia will do the general testing and evaluation of the projectiles,unitprod,buildprod and other files that they feel like.

We are getting closer to the public release so please have a good cracker


CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[youone]

Thanks I'm DL new version now will work on that rebel thing Haven't had it yet so will change the way I play regards buildings, spy's etc.small note I like the way Phrigian archers kneel when they let loose their arrows great little touch that makes this mod (game) WELL GREAT http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif
I agree the unit size is alot better with the alterd Hellenic_unit_prod2 file.I've played the Persians for a bit ,do people find the lack of good generals, although you do have large resources a drawn back
Also is the LydianHVYInf been given a bad deck of cards seems all to easy to over run them by the greeks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
komninos
Look forward to your small surprise ,but knowing your surprise's IT'S going to be a big one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-speechless.gif

[Brianbbj]

Im glad that the Rebel problem is being taken care of, lets see if the Lydians have been reviewed...

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

King Azzole wrote:


Quote[/b] ]After a vicious but very one sided war with the Illirians thanks to Greek superiority in tactics (and a good commander me ) the Illirians where smashed forever But the Thracians shortly thereafter attacked me with a force of 8000 men against a small unprepared macedonian force of 1500 men and Macedon prevailed Many good men where lost that day, but the entire macedonian army of 4500 men swung east to meet the new threat that had smashed my other peaceful neighbors, the Peonians. With the Illirian tribal lands and people supporting macedon now, the army of 4500 was quickly raised to a mighty force of 6000, and good thing, cause very shortly therafter a massive 12000 Thracians invaded. After a very bloody and rainy battle, 2000 macedonians lay dead on the field and a whopping 7000 Thracians lay dead. This was the turning point in the macedon/thrasian war. Seeing my country in despair, the Aetolians send an expenditiary force of 2000 men to secure southourn provences to aid in the defeat of the barbarians. Soon thessaly sent a force as well. macedon drove deep, almost to Byzantios itself. But the Aetolians had smashed there eastern front while we the macedons smashed there western front. In one last sad stand, 8000 greek warriors faced 9000 Thracians with Thessaly sending 500 men to assist. Thrace was destroyed and its lands divided among macedon and aetolia. War still raged between the (hittites?) Phrygian and lydians in asia minor. Both fielding massive armys, as the greeks slowly attempted to chip away provences here and there. But then sadly, after 40 years of peace between the greeks, the Beoteons attacks the Aetolians. The kingdoms of greece were divided on who to support. At first greed drove me to side with the beoteons, thinking I could take a weakened Aetolian lands. But when I saw the army of beotia march into Aetolia itself, I turned sides, sending a force of 5000 men to remove beotia from the Aetolian home city. They agreed to leave peacefully, but a fierce naval conflict arose. macedonia, with its superior drieres, overcame the beotean penticores and naval superiority was obtained... Now macedon ponders its next move... Does it slaughter its fellow greeks for more power? Or face the barbarian threat in asia minor and just try and keep the peace between the greeks in the meantime? Stay tuned...


CZoF

[youone]

When playing the Persians I noticed that when I flanked a CL_Hoplite formation and hit them from behind ie charged them, with the ind elephant's the damage wasn't has great Has you think it would be.
Any formation hit from behind should receive a shock A hoplite formation with their long spears should find it very difficult to respond and with a great big fat mass of elephant breathing down your neck it should even make these elite troops break formation and take heavy losses
What's the opinion from others on this WILD CARD http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[youone]

Reading the Aetolians history at the begining of the classical era.
The Aetolians sided with the Romans which it says" Availabilty as- allies some Roman units to Aetolia for game play"
which xtra units do the Aetolians have.

[Zanderpants]

Youone:
I agree, Hoplites in general are too strong. I've flanked them with elephants, chariots, hoplites, polemistes, hippies, and akondistes and they usually still beat both units that were engaged with them. However, I don't think that the creators can implement the weakness of a phalanx at it's sides and back very well and still keep the really strong front. I do think that Elephants should be charged up a bit. Maybe boosting their charge bonus since they would have a rather brutal charge. The boosting their melee stat a bit since they would deal out horrific damage tosing their heads from side to side. Then lower their defence bonus a bit and they already have pretty bad moral and you're set. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[youone]

Zanderpants
Thanks I don't normally alter stats but on this occasion I believe the xtra charge bonus would make the out come of an elephant hit from behind more realistic"Maybe boosting their charge bonus since they would have a rather brutal charge. also boosting their melee stat a bit since they would deal out horrific damage tossing their heads from side to side. Then lower their defense bonus a bit and they already have pretty bad moral and you're set."


I started a new game with the new update
quick things I've noticed
Light toxotes ,two year build is this a change to make the AI choose less archers if so I agree "good"
Yficratian hopliton massage couldn.t translate
I believe the economic values maybe two high at turn 468 I had 64954 gc with a large high quality troop count I had also taken the states of Aeniania ,which is a must if your playing the aetolians also phocis,
Athens had being over run by the Illirians in turn 473 there seem to have vasts amounts of large stacks of armies everywhere at this early point.
Enjoying the mod
Keep it coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif

[Frodo Lives]

I wonder if marriage is some of the reason why we get so many rebellions in the game. I usually accept any marriage proposal from other factions. So when my king dies, normally there is a small chance that some of my countries will join that country from which my blushing bride came from. Except instead of those countries joining that faction I instead get a rebellion on them.


Another thing? I noticed the priests and holy men are missing. Are they coming back or are they gone for good?

[youone]

[B]Frodo Lives
That's a good point you've raised, I always have refused these marriage proposal from other factions,I always build up a spy net work with 2 or more spy's in each state along with watch towers and boarder forts.
When I get warnings of disloyal generals I either put them on trial and killed them off or just send an assassin to do the job failing that I send the whole unit on a suicide invasion and kill it off ,sometimes if you buy back the general his loyalty increases and dread decreases.
I'll will accept more marriage proposal from other factions and see if the rebels raise their heads http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[King Azzole]

Sorry for not posting my story results in this thread.

Sorry about not playing the lakedemonians, I tried them on an earlier version and it was very hard and frustrating. Ill do my best to see how it goes with them now.

I love so far how the greek nations concentrate more on killing the foreigners than eachother. Sure war does erupt among greek kings but for the most part greeks defend eachother very nicely. Very nice coding

[Maul]

ROYAL_PALACE

If this building is suppose to provide valor bonus for units (all produced in province I suppose since there are no units which requires it) then it does not. But there is work around. Following description was originally prepared for VICTORY_SQUARE from NTW mod but it deals with the very same problem so I quote it here.


Quote[/b] ]First of all Victory Square has to be TROOP_PRODUCER. Its troop upgrade capabilities have to be set to UPGRADE_VALOUR(n) (this one is obvious isn’t it?). Then when you want to make it add valor bonus to for example LightInfantry just change building requirements for LightInfantry
form {INFANTRY_TROOP_DRILL,GUNSMITH2}
to {INFANTRY_TROOP_DRILL,GUNSMITH2, VICTORY_SQUARE}, {INFANTRY_TROOP_DRILL,GUNSMITH2} (take note of order of requirement sets its important). And that’s all. Now, when Victory Square is present LightInfantry gains valor bonus.

Remarks:
1. Only one bonus can be applied by single structure so Victory Square cannot provide valor bonus and morale bonus at the same time.
2. First level MTW TROOP_PRODUCER buildings, for some reason, are not expected to provide valor bonus so no relevant info is displayed in info panel. But structure works correctly anyway.
3. This method has one disadvantage. Original structures required to produce given unit reports ability to build this unit twice.

But if ROYAL_PALCE is not suppose to provide any bonuses then please remove UPGRADE_VALOUR(n) function to disable confusing info in info panel.



And another one found when digging into ROYAL_PALACE

[Mead Hall_desc]
{As the city grouse the market grouse with it. The Stoa makes its appearance since the merchants in the market need a permanent place. These large buildings house a number of shops bat also taverns and places for discussions. Grate teachers’ come in these places to find new students. Many Philosophical schools were connected to a specific Stoa.}

Shouldn’t it rather be:

[Mead Hall_desc]
{As the city grows the market grows with it. The Stoa makes its appearance since the merchants in the market need a permanent place. These large buildings house a number of shops but also taverns and places for discussions. Grate teachers’ come in these places to find new students. Many Philosophical schools were connected to a specific Stoa.}

Cheers
Maul

[Antalis::]

Is it possible, that someone also test the persians?

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Maul,you haven't been assigned to any faction yet,so if you want go for the Persians we need some more feedback than we get from our current testers.

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Sorry about not get backing with much info boys but i will. Just been rushed off the old feet at the moment. I'll do some stuff this evening and report back tomorrow http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

To all testers

As the public release date is getting nearer,i'me currently updating and preparing the HTW website so i have a nice task for you guys.

I need nice screenshots of the HTW start-up screen,Campaign map,Historical Battle/Campaign screen,Battles,landscapes and so on...

So be artistic for a change

In game pictures are taken pressing F2 on the keyboard.
They will be stored in your HTW maindirectoty in the TGA map.

Send them as JPEG's please:use IrfanView or whatever program you like to convert the TGA's to JPEG's.

The most beautifull ones will be used for the screenshot section on the HTW website,so go and be an artist and create HTW beauty

Thanks,

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I can definetly do that geez http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Omegamann]

Tested the hwhole day with the thracians on Geometric hard:
Found these Bugs:

High Rebelion Factor in Thracian main Province makes for a hard startup.
Heirs are Thracian romphaia Cavalery
First Heirs are Twins.
Thracian Units still called Thrasian.
Rebel Leaders have Viking portraits
My Corinthian Ally had a Viking Portrait
MiniMap became disclored after accepting marriage
Ships produced in Aegospotamos appear in the northern Aegean not in the Propontis

Completion messages
Buts show Bowyer Picture
Fortified village show stockade picture and text
Bowyer and Spearmaker show Trading Post picture

I also wrote up a rather long narrative account of my game so far. Should I post it here or in the story forum?

[Antalis::]

No, post your story here please http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Maul]

What a damn waste. Arhon Alkaleos has just talked his fellow Athenians to vote for spreading wisdom of democracy over whole Mediterranean and then such blow from almighty Gods… Bah and next day he finds himself King of Persia

No faction description for Persians when starting campaign.
There seam to be general problem with too long descriptions for Persian units (descriptions do not fit into info panel). I noticed Phrigian Warband, Phrigian Archer, Kardakes, Persian Archers, Immortals, Persian Skythed Chariots, Persian Royal Guards, Persian Horce Archers (sic Horce – Are you using some kind of stylish / ancient tongue which I do not know and can not find in any dictionary? Please, please answer me because I found more of these and do not know if I should report.)

All descriptions for ROYAL_COURT chain of buildings are standard descriptions from original MTW and as such do not fit into HTW.

Cheers
Maul

[komninos]

Hi all,

Thanks for the effort.
Something will arrive soon with some of the fixes ...
There is one thing that pisses me off the Thracian leader unit does NOT follow the time pattern placed for it for some reason the leader unit gets the High, Late unit in Early and then it get the early ... can’t understand why I think the only solution is to follow the path ... if you can’t bit them join them so I might make the Thracian with both cavalry units.
Many buildings don’t give many things to the cause BUT they do wonders on keeping your population as quiet as possible ... remember the money production buildings have a need for more slaves More slaves means more trouble.

[Brianbbj]

GAME BALANCE:
I think there is one thing who really is different in HTW from MTW, talking game-play, and this is length of the campaign, HTW takes MUCH MUCH MUCH longer to win.
I don't know yet if i like it.

The new test version from this weekend is much better thanks, Persians now beat the Lydians in the east, but i usualy takes some time, which is good, and keeps both faction occupied, much better balance on this.

BUT i think that when the Persians have conquered the east, they get to over powered, and then i have the same problem as with the Lydians. (but still better then before)

THE LANDS IN THE EAST:
I would sugject that the lands in the east would be
down-graded a little, i don't know if the lands historical was poorer, but a money fix would proberly help a little.
I think the main problem is that the Persians (as with the Lydians before), get way to much isolated lands and then have peace and quite to built up a large army. maybe they should have harder chosing the sea for a way of conquest?

STILL TOO MUCH REBELLION IN THE END GAME:
And there are still to much rebellion in the end game, better then before this weekends update, but not fixed yet.
Problem is when the greek faction take over provinces with a different culture. As i understand you can make building who reduce the rebels ans such, and i have been edition a little tonight, and setting everything on the lowest level, BUT in the endgame, there are still way more Rebebelion then in the original Medieval game.
I had even had rebelion in my "homelands" ie. my starting provinces.
I is beginning to think that giving the rebels this "dummy" province, is what somehow gives them strength, ie. giving them some uncontrolled extra "Rebel uprising power".
In my next campaign i think i will delete the dummy faction from the startpos file, i hope the game will work still.
BTW whay are the sugjected garrison size?

TO THOSE PEOPLE WHO THINKS HOPLITES ARE TO STRONG:
I was maybe thinking the same, BUT after being over-crowed by the east so many times, i don't think so.
BUT a possible fix would maybe be to not having a hoplite unit have 6 supporting ranks, many 5 i enough, and this will weakend the hoplites a little, maybe enough.?

THE ELEPHANT PROBLEM:
I also think that the elephants have too little charging power, as many people have sugjested a better chargeing ability, maybe this is the answer or maybe:

What about giving the War-Elephants
Supporting Ranks? I think this would work real nice to simulate the large herds of stampeding elepants.

Maybe this also will give the chariots that extra punch, if they get a single supporting rank?

Why aren't Elephants Armour piercing BTW?
Where they not the counter-weapon against the heavy armoured Infantry?, which ability would suit them better then this?.

I would like the Developers to comment my Elephants idea, PLEASE, i'm one of those guys who like to see that you really read what we write.

PS: i think that making the units larger was a good idea, makes the game much more visualy better
PPS: sorry for yet another large post.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Quote[/b] ]Are you using some kind of stylish / ancient tongue which I do not know and can not find in any dictionary?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Rosacrux is doing a survey of all the descriptions,so these will be fixed.Yes indeed the style that has been used is very special it is Komenglish a very ancient language indeed http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

Kom:i love you M8 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Antalis::]

Yes I also think that rebellious is too much.

I think we should reduce it to most provinces to 0 and only some to 1 and very rare to 2 in the startposes.txts.

And yes, in my opinion too the elephants should be a bit stronger in charging.

[Antalis::]

btw: If you have any nice pics of battles or anything else you could also post them too in the Engineers guild (and send also many to Count zimoa of Fl) in the official HTW thread as eye candys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

You could use Image Dumb (http://www.image-dump.com/browse.php?x=4) for posting your screens.


Show the exitest moments of your campaigns, battles.

[komninos]

OK guys ... I am a dyslectic ... whit a profound hate for anything that resembles text and spelling ... but I sat and made these descriptions while trying hard not to make an ass of my self ... you don’t have to bit me with a stick every time you see them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Please If any of you English Speaking can help Rosa then please do fixing text can be a pain in the b...

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Geezers remember english ain't these boys first language, they have worked tremendously hard at making an ENTIRE different game. I like the balance that even a land power like sparta can't always get there own way due the smaller factions having better navies and raid behind your main front.

[Maul]

I’m terribly sorry if anyone feels offended. And I really mean that. I’m not a native English speaker myself and I was just curious. Since I can pretty easily give you examples of words and phrases from my native language which you won’t find in most dictionaries I’m sure you can do the same with your native tongue. Descriptions and other texts in HTW are written in pretty smooth English and I do not have any trouble reading and understanding them myself. Why shouldn’t I presume they were written by someone who knows Shakespeare’s language much better than me? And on the other hand haven’t you asked to hunt for bugs and errors?

But once again I ask you humbly dear komninos to accept my apologies if you feel offended.

Cheers
Maul

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hey mate i weren't really refering to you post. Apologies are never needed in the dungeon, its the mad places like the tavern you need them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[King Azzole]

I think the trick to this game is constant attack. but not just random attacking, its selective attacking that enables you to win faster. For instance. my first game was playing as the Macedonians. I immediately the 1st turn attacked my neighbor to the west, then the illirians took the provence to my north. I then attacked them the next turn. I beat them back, and made an alliance with my southern neighbors Thessaly. I then waged a swift and brutal war with Illiria. After taking the 6 or 7 provences from them, I had enough money and heres the important part; land to produce enough soldiers to make my armys large fast.

You see the trick to the game is to build up armys fast. Regular battles consist of 8000-10000 vs sometimes 15000 to 20000 men. I am currently playing as Sparta, and Here is the story.


Sparta is a proud nation, and a good ally to its close neighbor, Argos. Corinthia and Argos have fought many wars in the past, and Sparta has shed much blood beside Argos for a long time. But peace stood in greece for awhile now, but a storm was brewing in the east. The Hittites in the east are now in vicious warfare with the Persians, a new threat from the far east.

Persia is a mighty nation, its empire vast. Its large armys seem to be invincible to all that behold them. But Sparta and the rest of Greece have evolved in warfare. Skirites have replaced the Akondistes of old. And the mighty Enamotia Hopliton riegns supreme in Greco warfare. The Spartans produced a mighty warrior indeed, the Spartan Enamotia Hopliton. Trained from A very young age to be warriors they are probobly the most elite soldiers the world has ever seen.

Sparta decided to smash the cretans and the Arhon himself lead the attack. The east Cretans fled to the west leaving the land totally to the Spartans. But then the Spartans pushed East, and a force of 1800 Spartans fought valiantly against the 1875 Cretans. The Cretans were smashed. Sparta immediately planned her next move. The Lydianswereinveciouswarfare to the east, and the macedons started there war with the Illirians to the north. deciding to assist the macedons, Spartan dieres destroyed illirians ships everywhere.

But then suddenly the entire Lydian navy attacked Spartan ships. Sparta fought desperately with the huge Lydian navy. All Spartan allies remained nuetral, fearing the sinking of there ships. The Spartan king was trapped as well on the isle of Crete. Sparta immediately moved to produce the mighty Trieres. Slowly, the tide of naval warfare was turned on the Lydians. Until at last Crete was free and a lane was open to southern asia minor. Sparta attacked the underbelly of the Lydians, headed by the brave Arhon. The Arhons son, a mighty warrior and extremely deadly combatant, lead another force of 2000 spartans against the back of the Illirians. The Lydians retreated without a fight from the Spartans and the Lydian force of 4000 was was destroyed. Stay tuned for more on the Spartans

[King Azzole]

Quote[/b] (komninos @ June 20 2004,04:25)]OK guys ... I am a dyslectic ... whit a profound hate for anything that resembles text and spelling ... but I sat and made these descriptions while trying hard not to make an ass of my self ... you don’t have to bit me with a stick every time you see them http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

Please If any of you English Speaking can help Rosa then please do fixing text can be a pain in the b...
Sorry i know I offered to help fix these texts but I do not understand how to edit them. If someone could explain fully how to access the places the text are in I will assist with it.

[King Azzole]

If your gonna make the elephants super powered with supporting ranks and davestating charges then make them expensive to upkeep or that is all one will build.

[Brianbbj]

ofcouse should elephant's cost be so that they one are the main troops, in the real world they where used, so they must have had a importent role in the army, or else then then the different commanders would not have had the trouple with the elephants.
Remeber that elephant's still in the game suffer hard from outflanking and quickly being surrounded, as weel as shooting.

And i can fully agree that the game is all about attacking constantly. but in the end the game is all about having enough provinces, so you can out-built your enemy's army,
a thing i really don't like in the mod.

In the old Medieval TW, you could also grow strong and survive by not being super aggresive, and in the old game, having most provinces did not equal you was winning.
ofcourse having many provinces was good, but many poor, undeveloped provinces was worth nothing.

I think it all to to with the money flow in the mod, i like that th3e developers try to make money less importent.

----------------------
Now for something different:

Does anyone know what in the game trickers Rebelions?,
Im not talking about having no garrison and such, i have been seeing that even good developed provinces with a full garrsion and some full stacks beside it, rebels suddenly, even if they had been controlled for 20 years or more.

[Omegamann]

Ok here is my story (Thracian Geometric Hard):
The Thracian King Bendidora knew he was destined to unite his people.
An oracle had told him that he would conquer the northern hills, the eastern plains and the southern islands, lands that only few thracians had seen before.
His people were always regarded as fearsome mercenarys and hardy fighters, both on horseback and on foot.

He knew his peoples love for gold just as he knew their love for freedom. Until know the Tribes had contended only in fighting among themselves and for foreign powers, raiding and plundering had been their profession, never conquering never being conquered.

But this was about to change. Without unity his people had led the Peonians in the west grow strong and Dorians had started to build colonies in the fertile lowlands, driving his people to the hills.
The only way to prevent his people from being subjugated would be to unite and drive the foreigners from their soil.

Then the doors to conquest would swing open, because united noone could stand against a race such favoured by Ares.

But first Bendidora had unite the tribes under his rule.
So taking his best Peltast and leaving the Warbands at home to quell any treachery by another nobel family while he was an campaign he raided his neighbors in Avdera. Beating them on the field he proceeded to burn the village of their leader and put all his adversaries to the sword.
This show of strength cowed and subjugated the thracian tribes in tis area, but the insidous Dorian colonists where not so easily impressed. They marched against Bendidora with their holites, and brought even their slaves to fight the Thracian conqueror.
The Dorians would learn a bitter lesson. Their slow Hoplites being decimated by showers of Thracian Javelins and their slaves brought down by hails of slingstones, the whole Dorian army was eventualy brought down in a bitter meele, and routed from the field.
King Bendidora didnt hesitate to plunder the Dorian colony and execute the whole of the rebels.
Meanwhile the Macedonians had conquerd the province of Mygdonia, and the Peonians had subjugated the Tribes of Serdica and the northern mountains.
Knowing that he would need the Avderian tribes to supply him with warriors, and hoping that his strong western neighbors would not dare to attack his weakend heartlands, Bendidora took only very little tribute in the conquerd Province, while more and more warriors flocked to his side.
When the Thessailians tried to conquer the tribes of Aegospotamos, just as Bendidoras two twin sons had come of age, he rushed to their aid and routed the Thessailians raiding party althoug they tried to bar him the bride across a broad river.
Fearing his Peltatst the Thessailian general withdrew from the riverbanks around the bridge, bringing doom on his Warriors and Javeleniers. Though many of the Dorian and Ionian Leaders that had previusly offert their alliance, now took back their vows and even threatend the King. This did not interrest him as he already knew that he or his kin must come into conflict with these men in the future.
The tribes of Aegospotamos did also not show gratitude and it took the Thracian prince two whole years of raiding the hills before they were subjugated. Still the king only imposed a small tribute upon them.
The next conquest of the prince would be the Thessailian colonie in byzantion itself. Taking again the opprtunity of attacking when their main army was on an expedition to south Moesia, the frightened colonists retreated to their fortified town. As he considered an attack on such a place to be to costly, resolved again to scoure the countryside, hoping the Thessailian on the march would not return to relieve the town.
And the gods smiled upon him, because he learned that on their march back, the army had been ambushed by the local population and utterly destroyed. When the colonists in the town heard of this, they imediately proposed to surrender the city unharmed on the conditiom that they were alloed to sail back to their mother city. The prince, being to lazy to govern the foreigners allowed for this ang got hold of the city abd the harbour completely intact.
In the following years the King took a great number of peasant slingers together with a few peltasts and horsemen to the south of Moesia. Since the Tribes living there had defeated the Thessailian invaders, every man, even the peasants was well furnished with arms and armor. But as they only possesed a few archers, the King was confident in overcoming them with slings and javelins, even though he had fewer warriors than them. The fight proved to be a bloody one, as almost all horsemen fell, and only the Kings horsemen and the peltast were able to route the weakend enemy.
Possessing no fortifications southern Moesia was quickly subdued.
Shortly after his triumph the Thessailian King offert the hand of his daughter to one of the twin princes, as he was hard pressed by the Athenians and feared that the Tharcians would aid his enemys, as by now Thracian merchant and warships were sailing the Aegean.
Knowing that it would be foolish not to accept this gesture of friendship King Bendidora accepted.
After this the King not only took Moesia from the Peonians, but also aided his new Thessailian ally twice by landing his Warriors on the shores of the besieged Thessailia. And both times the Athenian general found it more prudent to withdraw than to give battle.
Meanwhile the Thracian fleet had begun to grow and great ships of war were now able to stand up to the ships of Athens, while the Merchants plied their trade across the northern Aegean and along the shores of the Euxenian Sea, bringing great wealth to the Thracian People.
Hoping to aquire a powerfull ally the bothe the Lydian King and the Leader of Athens tried to persuade the King to break treaty with his longtime allys the Phrygians and the Thessailians respectively, the Athenian leader even offering his daughter in marriage.
Finding the Lydians hard pressed by there enemys and the Atheninas too powerfull at sea to be a trustworthy ally King Bendidora declined these offers.
When the Thessailian King was a thrid time besieged by the Athenians and King Bendidora again came to his aid, finaly the Athenian General thought himself stron enough to give battle.
King Bendidora, knowing the strength and weaknesses of the peltasts and slingers he had brought with him, let the blocks of Hoplites engage and held the enemy toxotes and akonistas back with his slingers.
When he had positioned himself and his peltasts on the right flank of the battle he drove the light troops of the athenians back and swung around to harras the Athenian enomotias from behind, whlie keeping thier lighter troops under a constant hail of slingstones.
Once the Thessailians broke the Athenian Enomotias the King himslef persued and capture the routing Hoplites. He als managed to almost capture the enemy Ptolemiste General once he began to withdraw. But the General was able to escape with his Leutenant.
Back at home the King proudly witnessed the comming of age of his fourth son, who was not only a great and natural leader, but also of keen mind and spirit, and immediately let him and his first born attack the Peoninas in Eso Moesia and Serdica respectively. After vanquishing the Peoninans in the field both princes commenced with a siege.
The villages of Serdica were taken by storm, but in Eso Moesia the Peonian King tried to relieve his garrison. This brought about his death at the hands of the valiant prince Byzo. Meanwhile the Illyrians had attacked the last stronghold of the Peonians and thus the Peonian Tribes were scattered and soon forgotten.
Prince Byzo showed mercy on the people of Eso Moesia counceling with them for almost five years before they were ready to become the Tharcians vassals.
King Bendidora used the time to develop his city, and build great hillforts in all strategic locations. Only once did he come to the aid of his Phrygian allys and with the help of a great army of Corinthan mercenarys the Lydians were routed from the field.
he Athenians had finaly managed to conquer Thessallia without a fight, and being offten the victim of Thracian Pirates the Athenian Leader begged for an end of hostillities. Generously King Bendidora accepted.
Shortly thereafter, when the Agraians clashed with the Phrygians, the King had to chose wich ally he would favour.
On account of the Phrygians not showing on the field when the KIng came to their aid, he chose the Agraians and prepared to attack the northern shores of Phrygia.
- and thats only till 130
- especialy I enjoyed the battles were I was the supporting ally for an hoplite army - thats the typical role of the Thracians in history.
- for a short time starting I had some problems with garrisoning my provinces, as with the new startpos the Tharcians dont have enough troops to hold on to the very rebellious provinces of the north, and I had to leave myself wide open to attack from the Peoninas and Macedonians
- money wasnt realy a problem, because with the trading income from my fleet I get more money than I can spent.

[Omegamann]

After the loong story know a short impression:
The Thracian cavalery problem should be solved with splitting the cav in light and heavy cavalry.
I did some reading up on the Thracians (I guess you also found http://www.thrace.0catch.com as a source)
and although the romphaia only came into use around 200 BC the use of curved swords from horseback is documented from the earliest sources.
I dindt look at the stats, but I have the impression that the renowned thracian cavalry is not so tough as it should be. But maybe thats only because I had to fight the even more renowned Lydian Cav a lot.
I dint use Light Chariots so far, as in the test I did with them I didnt find them very usefull except skimrishing with hoplite armys. As there doesnt seem to be a documented use of chariots by the Tharcians since the bronce age, they could be replaced by strong heavy cav.
From an aesthetical point of view I would like to have my peltast looking like real Thracians (like the rhompaias) and the rhomphaias using oval celtic shields. (maybe something for V4.)
I also think the warbands/tribesmen/slingers look a little to much like barechested barbarian trouserwearers. I think the image is great, but would be better used for celtic warriors (Celtic Invasion anyone?)
Maybe giving them a phrygian cap or an Illyrian helmet would make them better fit into the period (just my oppinion, nothing critical)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Units:

Been playing macedonian and my hopilites are simply being tore apart by thracian romphemorie(sp?) do you think they should be toned down a little? because they end my armies lives very quickly.

[Zanderpants]

I disagree BrianBBJ. I've held all of Southern Greece (Lakedemonia, Messenia, Elis, Corinthia, Argolis, that province on the south-east tip between Lakedemonia and Argolis), as well as all three of the Eastern islands, and I've been set like that for close to 75 turns with no problems. I make enough money through trade that I can support large enough armies so as to deterr any attackers other than Persians or Lydians, on account of their massive numbers, with a decent surplus to continue training or building. So no, it's not about having lots of provinces, though it is about having a large income somehow, which is exactly like MTW, it was all about the money.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Lets be fair about the elephants. They are balanced to how they were. Apart from a few battles historically in which they caused havoc in the enemy lines that was it. When they got bogged down and surrounded thats murder she wrote for them.

I just think a better charge bonus but i think its pretty high anyway. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[youone]

Certainly raised many opinions on the elephants
I find the main purpose of this wild card is to screen the foes horse since the horse feared the elephant. bad smell and all,
The xtra charge thing was suggested because It is hard to near impossible to make a rear attack realistic with the strong formations such as hop's I don't know if you can alter the stats to archive this, so it might be best to leave alone,
I've try my self with the increase charge AND yes it destroys the Heavy inf formations.
I've played many battles in custom with elephants and find it all to easy to kill them off with the peltasts skirmishers etc which is closed to being realistic ,one of the reasons elephants where finally dropped by generals.
On the rebels
I now except marriage proposals and yes I've being over run by rebellion after rebellion,This looks like a mayor player in uprising's any opinions from others on this
does your rebellions fall or increase stay the same when excepting proposals.
I still find playing the aetolians you must take Aeniania
for the metalsmith has in MTW the English had to hold and take Spain for the weapon upgrades or you wouldn't be around for the long bow
I like the update version not to many ships ,archers hippies,The disloyal generals is properly true to history ,but I'm not sure if it helps the game, that's one for the designers to decide.
also on the rebellions Sparta was know to teach even it's young that slaves where low lives so yes I agree if you build buildings that require lots of slaves you must except that one day you will have back arce I'm still loving this game hopefully I will sort this pics thing and send some great pics
For now I copied the disc file into word and just spel checked it , English version of course

Keep it coming
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Omegamann]

On the rhomphaia:
I didnt have much opportunity to use them so far as I have tested the Geometric Age mostly until now.
But form my experiences (with the previous update) these guys are the only troops of the Thracians that can hurt an Hoplite unit in meele. All other troops are only usefull in showering the slow phalanx with missiles and backing away when attacked.
That said I will test head to head confrontations with the different hoplites today using only rhomphaia.
If they can win in an frontal fight, they are realy to strong, but if they need to outnumber and flank the hoplites, taking heavy casualtys I would think thats okay.
On Income:
Historicaly most fighting in this region was not to conquer land, but to hold onto the best trading places on both sides of the Aegean. So I think the income situation is okay.
I am not sure I like the AI building so little ships, as it uses them very poorly and my Thracian navy didnt have much trouble to drive the Athenains from the northern Aegean.
- Got the new update will beginn with a new campaign then to try out the new startpos.

[Maul]

After HTW v3.1 Beta update2 Persians have three different faction colors on strategic map:
*orange shield
*purple banner/unit basement
*pink flag

Persian Skythed Chariots battlefield icon has green background.

[komninos]

Hi all,
I wonted to write something yesterday but after a crash I left it for today and now I have to write two pages of comments.

So lets take it from the top.
No apologies needed no offence taken ... I am a horrible speller and I don’t intend to change that ... even if I could ... since first grade every body mocked me about my spelling and I join in the fun.

===========================================================

King Azzole,
To check the Descriptions go to the Loc\Eng folder and open the Descriptions.txt.
The format is :
[System_name_desc] {“Description text”}
System_name – is the unit/building name that the system uses
Description text – is what you read and is the part that you have to change.

On the story now,
Well, Argeans (or Argives) were from the same keen as the Spartans and though Spartans used the title “Sans of Hercules” the Argive kings claimed direct decent from Hercules and so supreme over all Dorians. Argos and Sparta became the worst of enemies and remained like that till the Romans came.

Hittites are non-existent in this age. The remains of there empire to the west took the form of Phrygian Kingdom but the Kimerians (Skythic tribe) destroyed them at about 800BC. What you see of them in the game is an attempt to re built an ancient kingdom.

===========================================================

Brianbbj, I will try to compile a map of what the buildings do so you can control rebellions better. I know that the TW engine forces large rebellions near the end of the game but remember you don’t need to get 100% of the map just the Greek world around the Aegean and Ionian Sea.

===========================================================

Units
Thracians Romfeofory are too strong but I am no sure when they appeared in the battlefield ... have to tone them down a bit I think.

The problems with the selection of the Kings unit for the Thracians is totally creasy can’t understand why it happens. The solution here might be a light Thracian and heavy Thracian cavalry and finish with it.

Elephants ... yes every bodies favorite unit. It was not so at those days. The most unreliable weapon of the time was the chariot, it could lead to great victories or shamed defeat thus it was not a weapon of choice if the enemy was anything above green and totally unarmored and the ground was not favorable namely FLAT totally FLAT. The only thing that was even less reliable were the elephants. These big animals are peace loving creatures with no blood lust what so ever. To boot they are totally chicken shit compared to other animals. So to bring them to battle they had to fear their driver more than the enemy. BUT if they found some good well-trained troops they would flee. The result to that was that they caused more friendly casualties than enemy ones

To simulate this in case of a fleeing elephant all friendly units in there path should safer a big moral drop and charge attack from the elephants This is not possible with out CAs help and some coding
So I did not favor the Elephant unit and I was very skeptic with it. Non-the less I have made some changes to it, increased the attack, halved the defense and increase the charge. The support cost was also increased. I will send it after some tests.

===========================================================

The new patch that you all received has an improvement for the Gastrafetis unit, a new map, some portraits and a new unit. The newcomer is the Skythan Light cavalry. They are excellent archers and cavalry. Antalis might make a new historical campaign with the Skythans now when the Persians attempted to end the Skythan aggression. Some Greek units took part in that campaign but it failed miserably and the Persians retreated with heavy casualties. For that to be fulfilled we will need also the Heavy Skythan cavalry.


===========================================================

Maul
Well the Persian colors have changed many times ... building shields for them is not the easiest part so hold on a bit till we find what we like best http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[King Azzole]

OK work has been started on fixing the spelling errors. In some places ive trimmed alittle so it fits in the text box in the game. I should be done if time permits before release. I will do my best.

[Omegamann]

As I said, I will try to test the rohmphaias today.
Though there seems to have been a big debate in the DBM crowd what this weapon was at all, it was first mentioned around 200 BC by Livy.
Still the Thracians had shorter onehanded sword with sicle licke blades beforehand, and as the rohmphaia is the most distingished weapon of the thracians I think its okay to provide them with this weapon from the classical period on.
I had a quick look at the new unit production file, and I would suggest to make all the Thracian units available as mercenaries, as that was their main occupation in this period.
The Thracian cavalry problem is indeed a strange one, but making them two different units I think would be the best solution. The smaller number of warriors in the Tharcian cav unit makes the early cav somewhat week against their Illyrian counterparts, so having the stronger and more expensive later cav available would reflect why they were known not only for their peltasts but also for their very good cavalry.
Oh and please change the dismount units:
light cav should become peltasts not Warbands
heavy cav should become rohmphaias not spearmen
I think that would make much more sense

[Omegamann]

Another thing, Castle assaults. I have the impression, that the AI doesnt use the beatifull new castle maps very well.
Anyhing bigger than a fortified village the AI just sits in the corner the longest away from you and waits while you have to take the long way round and get shot up from missiles all the way.
I have not ever seen a unit placed in the much better defended inner circles build on the hills.
Not sure if there could be done anything about this, but how do the other testers see this?
The big fortifications do also look quite empty even when full staffed by the enemy, so it might be a good idea to increase the number of troops stationable in anything bigger than a fortified village.

[Omegamann]

OK rhomphaias are to strong.
on flat ground they can take an enomotia hopliton head on without even having to throw their javelins and fight them to a draw.
Although the AI doesnt manage to keep his phalanx together, it was the same twice when I tried the same engagement on the hoplites side.
So they are definetly to strong at they cost.

[Maul]

There are some buildings which are expected to generate income but they don’t. Those are:
- INN
- TAVERN (whole chain)
- BROTHEL (whole chain)
- CHURCH (whole chain)
- CATHEDRAL
- GRAND_MOSQUE
- STADIUM (whole chain)

There are two ways to fix this problem. First, simple one is to change “Building type” from whatever it is to CATHEDRAL_INCOME. In that case income generated by listed building will be classified and listed as Cathedral Income but I can not think of reason why should it hurt.

The other solution is to add resource requirement for every listed building. Special, new resource should be added for this purpose. Something what can be called “state taxes” perhaps. Last thing is to add this new resource to every province expected to bring income from listed buildings. (When you add this resource to every province you will get solution equal to the one with CATHEDRAL_INCOME).

There is also PORT which is supposed to generate income (other than income from imports). But it seams PORT’s “Building type” (which is PORT – how strange http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif) can not be changed (all my attempts resulted in CTD).

Cheers
Maul

[Zanderpants]

The Eastern Ligh Cavalry spelling has changed in the new version, but it's still not correct. It's become East Ligh Cavalry. Should be Eastern Light Cavalry.
Also, the Peonean king is still called "king of kings". However, the Persian kings were known as the "king of kings".

[soibean]

Id do it... I can spot bugs and whatnot but I dont know jack about modding or changing anything in the game
so if you need some one to spot mistakes Im a pro at that

pm me if for some reason I could be of help

[Omegamann]

In the official forum Dirk had a nice idea about creating maps were the armies dont start directly in front of each other, but you have to search for them possibly being ambushed in the process.
I had some maps were the enemy did ambush me from the beginning (like hiding in a forest directly to my left wing while baiting me with some cav in the open) and I enjoyed the experience tremendously.
Maybe Antalis can get into contact with this guy.

[Antalis::]

You cannot set deployment points like in historical battles.
So this idea is impossible.
I would set such points but its more or less randomly where the armies will start.

[Omegamann]

But you can set the perimeters within which the armys can set up or cant you?
If possible you could restricting these to a smaler aera if you wanted the AI entering the battle from an exact spot.

It would also be nice to havet to actually set up on the beach, if you attack on a beach map.

I dont know how you did it but in playing the thracinans I was 'ambushed' a couple of times by the defending AI.

Basicaly it set up his horses out in the open, opposite to me, where I would expect them to be, but had its warriors hiding in a small forest almost directly to the left of my setup aera, storming out as I went to get the cavalery. On this map I even fell for the same trick twice.
But there were also other maps where the AI was hiding in this kind of way.

[Duke John]

Topic moved to the H:TW forum. The thread in the AL has been deleted...it's tough having your own subforum http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Cheers, Duke John

[Brianbbj]

this is the new place for reports right?

I have been testing the Thessilians, and i sincerly thinks that there special unit, the cavalry are to weak.

[Maul]

Entry for SkythLTCav is missing in DEADPAGE COORDS.TXT file. I believe it should look like this:

SkythLTCav
44 23 94 149 142 174
32 29 1 34 49 61
17 27 25 175 2 231
4 26 1 5 50 32

Cheers
Maul

[BarkingBeagle]

Yeah... Thessalian cavalry gets slaughtered by Thracian Cavalry; it's the second best cavalry in the game, and it still can't really stand up to, for instance, Thracian Peltasts.
I get to cheer now. I finally killed the Thracians Destroyed their faction, smacked 'em off the face of the earth... It's a lovely feeling. Admittedly, it was in the Geometric Period, but still... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mzocker]

I was testing the Corinthians Geometric Era. Difificulty: Normal

1. In the first year a have a civil war

2. When you start a battle, all your units build one mob and no formation

3. There are no names for the Scythian Light Cavalry. All you can see is: ( SkytLTCav_Plural ) Could n

4. The name of Light Missile Slingers isn't in plural. It only says Light Missile Slinger without a s.

5. When you choose an Era there is missing the word Era in the 'Geometric Era' name

[BarkingBeagle]

I feel so happy, so highly evolved... Heheh...

I have just established the Empire of Thessaly I'm so tough, everyone tiptoes around me and would rather die than break an alliance. I have united all of the North and most of Asia minor, and have destroyed the Lydians, the Peonians, the Illirians, the Macedonians, and am busily crushing the Phrygians. I'm pulling in 25,000 GC per turn, and bribing armies left and right. It's only a matter of time untill the other city states gang up on me, but still...
This is the Geometric period. I did this by carefully allying myself against expanding powers, and attacking who they attacked. So while the Lydians and Macedonians were powerful, I acted all vulture-ish and stole weakened Illirian provinces that they were attacking, etc, etc. I'm powerful enough now to destroy my enemies on my own.
Playing as the faction that always seems to get whooped, it's an absolutely lovely feeling.

[Zanderpants]

Playing as the Corinthians on expert, proclassical, all goes very well.
A few things:

The Argians have a title from the Welsh
Cydwladwr (compatriot) [Leath-Ri]

also, in Zacynthus: I was besieging the Aetolians, and under the area where it lists the upgrades such as barbacen, etc., it gave me this message:
castle_size_txt_xyz##9
This label does not exist

[Brianbbj]

I have been playing the _old_ Medieval Total war now and Viking Invasion the past few days, just to better compare the level of rebel activity.

The the old game, it seems that rebellions simply comes more natural, and don't feel annoying, they don't seem so random.

I HTW i think that the rebillions are way to big and way to random and they are SO annoying becouse you can't do anything to avoid them. i have tryed to give all regions a 0 in rebel activity, then the game just get more random, then you can even got a BIG rebellion in your starting provinces, and rather fast i think, if there is a zero in everything, then i think the engine don't have a pattern for rebel actitivy and then just go Total unnatural random.

I think the HTW is so great, the allying works much better then in the original games, for some unknown reason, actully i think everything in the HTW mod is great, EXCEPT the i would say rebel problem, which is SO annoying to me that im loosing interest in playing. There is something really, really wrong.

BTW i actully have seen a pattern in the rebel activitys, if your faction is REALLY the head faction in the game, then there is more rebbellion, is have tryed to set the game to autoplay with the debug codes, and then the games go on forever, when a faction get a good lead, then they are destroyed by rebellions, in 2-3 turns, then a new faction get a good lead, then the same happens, and this also happens if the faction if the player. For me it look like that in the game engine is a form of Winning Penalty, so that the end game part, don't be so boring, butin HTW is just so over powering this im winning penalty.

I have tryed to make so my faction Thessalien get 700 hoplites unit to start with, and right enough, then the game engine calculates that my faction is leading WAY to much in compare to the other faction, and yes SUDDEN rebellions happen, even when i have 75,000 hoplites in my capital province....

I think that you guys have done a mistake of somekind, is there a way to set the garrison effect or something involving how the garrison works??

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I think thats what makes the game great. The rebellions give experience to your troops before a bigger campaign. As the spartans i fight my surrounding neighbours and keep the rebellion level always high with high tax rates so i can crush it and train my men in hard buggers on the battlefield against more tough oppostion. When i expanded north it payed to have more experienced troops.

[Maul]

One of the resource available in HTW is called Salt but confusingly mine which excavates this resource is called Marble mine (I’m referring to descriptions shown inside game not labels in config files). All descriptions of this structure also refer to salt.

Cheers
Maul

[Brianbbj]

to THE BLIND KING

HAve you tryed to win the game then? i mean fully conquer the world ie. Full Victory?
I would like to know, how you handles the rebels in the End Game.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

As the spartans, the islands have eluded me due to the fact that the enemy navies(i'm usually at war with alot of people) sink my fleets. The land victories has been great though. All of greece, the north and much of the land east of that is under my yoke Its took quite a while to achieve but the reason i destroy most of my rebellions is that alot of the greek states refuse to fight me and would rather raid from the sea, which was successful until i put good forces on the coast and crushed two invasions, one from the aetolians and the yellow greek faction, is it the corinthians?
The huge rebellions i get(i usually play on expert, don't know if that makes a difference though but i like it that way) have gave me chance for my troops to gain experience and i love smashing the rebels because your forces are usually far better than the enemy.
Sometimes if a huge rebellion occurs in a outlying province and i don't have enough troops i will leave it to them. Either bribe them later or get reinforcements and then make them wish they have never been born.
Also i often avoid the rebels and take out the main factions, then mop up the rebels once i have time to consolidate my power http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Brianbbj]

i understand your point Blind King, i see the use of the rebels. BUT i have tryed to make a full victury for some while, AND its impossible, when you have around 75% of the map then the rebellions get WAY to powerfull, which makes it impossible to win, i have noticed that they come no matter how many people you got in the province, actully if you got a BIG army then the rebels just are more, kinda weird, and the rebels keep coming. ie. it imposible to win.
This is where i think there is an error in the mod.

i don't either have no problems with the rebels, and a small rebellion once in a while is ok, but when your get the impression that the game just keep rebellion, becouse the game engine somehow have a limit on how powerfull you may get is kinds annoying.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

I'll admit the lydians when i have played do get huge rebellions just as i am invading over into the balkans and that can be annoying.

I just wiped out the persians and the rebellion level iNn some of those provinces are huge even though i have a 900 man army in the province, even with low tax rate it was 80 percent
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Brianbbj]

I also have problem over in the east, with rebellions, but i think that the lydians & persians will get the same problems when they try to conquer the west side of the map, i think its something also to to with the religions of the provinces.

anyway I would like hear more as your game procedes BLIND KING.

As i have been saying many times now, i would like to hear the other playtester opinion about the end game, and rebellions. and no one else but the Blink King really has said anything about it. im thinking that the other play testers play the game a little and then just says that all is fine, not playing to the end of the game.

[BarkingBeagle]

Well, this is the first time I've actually gotten to the end game in Hellenic, and it's been great... Thessally expanded in every direction, and after crushing the Spartans and Corinthians I had everything under my sway except for Crete.
And then I had rebellions... I'm pretty good at controlling rebellions, and decided to keep some provinces and lose others, thus concentrating my forces, and use the 50,000+ gold I'm bringing in yearly to bribe the provinces back.
Needless to say, I was surprised when, instead of regular rebellions, I get 5 factions that I'd destroyed coming back. I'll muster my forces and crush them, but I definitely gotta say... the amount of rebels and resurfacings that came around at the very end made things very complicated and a tad annoying, when I was hoping to crush the Argians and win.
When offered the 'lesser victory' earlier on, I saved, took it, and loaded my game. I noticed that you're using the original Medieval GameEnd files. I know that they'd have a big filesize if you put them into Hellenic, but you can have them as a seperate, optional download like the Music files.
I'm an actor; if you send me lines to read and a link to a decent sound-editing program, I can knock you up a good ending for each faction.

[Zanderpants]

Quote[/b] ]im thinking that the other play testers play the game a little and then just says that all is fine, not playing to the end of the game.


http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

I also had problems close to the end of the game, but not to the extreme that you describe. I have had that problem in the original MTW to the extreme that you describe.
When I got to the end of my Corinthian game on expert, with no cheats, I did have big rebellions in many provinces, but I was able to handle them. I'm guessing that was because I did a mass-attack on the remaining provinces so I took them all at the same time. That way, I only had to beat back the rebels for a few turns while I besieged the castles.

Flip:
The Persian Horse Archers don't do the zoom in glitch like before. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[komninos]

Hi all,

Sorry for not being around the last days ... been sick still am but better any way.

BarkingBeagle, I have reduced the rebellion scale I would not expect to see a big reduce though since most of the income buildings will increase the restlessness in a province so build a stadium, a temps and other. If you play with the Northern tribes then things will be really difficult since you don’t have such buildings.

castle_size_txt_xyz##9 --- fixed we have 10 castles also the number were corrected too.
SkytLTCav_Plural --- this should be OK now ... I will re send the files any way
Light Missile Slingers --- fixed
Geometric Era --- fixed
2. When you start a battle, all your units build one mob and no formation --- still trying these formations are really difficult to handle
SkythLTCav is missing in DEADPAGE COORDS --- fixed
Thessalian cavalry gets slaughtered --- cavalry is not the best weapon of the era remember there are no stirrups rides are on bare back and with the exception of Companions the rest Greek cav was not more than mediocre.
- INN, TAVERN, BROTHEL, CHURCH, CATHEDRAL, GRAND_MOSQUE, STADIUM --- fixed
rhomphaias – toned down.



Quote[/b] ] I'm an actor; if you send me lines to read and a link to a decent sound-editing program, I can knock you up a good ending for each faction.

BarkingBeagle, if you can do it, it would be great

[Omegamann]

Could you post the rhomphaias new stats please or send the whole new unit_prod and the other fixes as a small update?
I am currently doing quite well in Geometric/Hard, but i am approaching the year were the rhomphaias become available.

Also have you considered my suggestion about the dismount units for thracian light and heavy cav? (and have you decided how you will tackle the bug with these cav, already?)
BTW good luck against the frensch today, your boys are the only hope to have at least one German left in the Euro ;)
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Omegamann]

Political Campmap Picture:(colored minimap)
I have some colored spots and lines where no provinces are located on my map, were there are no provinces located.
In the previus version/game they were Corinthan yellow, no they are Argrive green.
I guess this might have something to to with the invisibe provinces that I read about in another thread?
Still looking kind of strange (will provide screenshot if neccesarry)

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Pre battle screen in nicaea, the screen was black. That has happened in my mod when an enemy invades fron the sea to some of my new provinces.

[Omegamann]

I think it will be neccessary to make one or more screenshots of the map in battle when a black preview map appears.
This will be the only way that Antalis will be able to identify the map(s) with problems.

Is the compressed starting formation a problim with maps or with the formation files?
I noticed if you encounter this error, you can still change your formation by using the the standard attacking formations (I normaly use Sparraba).

[BarkingBeagle]

Komninos:

I meant that Thessalian Cav. should be able to beat up the other cavalry units, not the hoplites or suchlike. They're the early version of Companion Cavalry, right?


Quote[/b] ]BarkingBeagle, if you can do it, it would be great

I'll see if I can find a sound-editing program, but I won't know what to say for the endings... I'm not an expert on Greek history. If you could give me a basic outline of what you want for each faction, I could do the rest of the research and come up with a more complete script. I'll convert the files to .mp3 format.

[komninos]

Hi BarkingBeagle,

Things from Iliad would be quite good since it was the favourite book of the time and it was used a lot to justify or comment on things.

Xenophon could be great too.

Thessalians are were good but not that good. They were mostly excellent riders nothing else.

Omegamann, Yes these are the water on land feature don't know how to stop it.
Also did the Thracians in the way you put it. Though the Romfeas now will appear in the Late period only

[Omegamann]

OK rhomphaias only in late... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif
This will make it quite hard on the Thracian side to deal with Hoplites.
They will then desperatly need to have both cavalries (light and heavy)
As with the light cav they can weaken and tire the hoplites blocks while the heavys can then go in for the kill.
Antoher idea would be to give the Tharcians an early rhomphaia unit only weaker and with normal swords as there are thracian tribes mentioned to be 'swordbearers' (using eiter a sickle like sword, or the standard greek curved sword.
For them you could take the warbands out of the thracian unitlist (I hardly ever use them except for garrisoning, as they are not nearly as hardy as the peltast.
The main grieve with puting the rhomphaia in Late is that its the only infantry unit that has the typical Thracian look about it.

I am just reading through the Illad again (have put the histories aside for the moment) and I am about half way through.
If my stile of writing (see story) isnt to wooden I might come up with something for the endings, but I dont know if I will have the time to write something up.

Now lets enjoy how the Greek Footbal team beats the Frensch
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[komninos]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA .... Hellaaaaaaaaaas .....

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[flip]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif AH AH AH
cheers Kom

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Greece and Portugal http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
Now tomorrow:The Netherlands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-party2.gif

CZoF

[Antalis::]

Zitat[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ Juni 25 2004,09:02)]Pre battle screen in nicaea, the screen was black. That has happened in my mod when an enemy invades fron the sea to some of my new provinces.
Thats strange.

Maybe you had a winter battle?

If this is the case then it can happen that there is no previewscreen.

Thats a problem with MTW.

Well we don´t want winter battles in Asia Minor and so on, but all 4th battle in a row or so there is maybe one I guess.

[Brianbbj]

I wanna try a thing, is it possible to edit how effective a garrison is?

[youone]

Hi
hope you all enjoyed the party [B] :barrel:don't cry for england we will get over it http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif
Game play has change since the last update
Spartans bloody hard playing against these almost impossible
had to change campaign tactics
Persians again knocking on Athens and Sparta door early has 470
Stack after stack of huge armies
Had to build fleets to cover coast line to stand any chance of progressing
It's alot harder now to play the Aetolians, that hard I've been defeated time after time ;before it was quickly attack east now it's arace to knock out the spartans ,who wins that will progress forward.
The rebel thing has you've read to get near the end gameis very hard now so can't remark on anything new
the rebellions will stop if you don't except marriage proposals,
I'm hoping with the Persians now on Greek soil the Spartans will leave me alone long enough to re-build my forces
I asked what extra forces do Aetolians receive by being allied with the romans any update on that
Keep it coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Fighting the last battle in the peleponisian(sp?) campaign. Its very difficult, how the hell do you win it? Ny allies general can't be arsed to help me out and our armies are crushed, especially when the spartans start cutting there way through my army.

[Antalis::]

I gave the Athenians now more valour and the Thegeans have less men.

So now it should be balanced.

[youone]

Hi
Here goes it's getting near the end of this beta testing Thanks it's been great fun
1st pic Persian invades athens just look at them Armies

]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14278[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14278[/IMG)

2nd pic sparta kicking my butt


]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14280[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14280[/IMG)

3rd pic elephants line up to cover my flank lol

]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14281[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14281[/IMG)

4th pic them horse and cart things

]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14282[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14282[/IMG)

5th formation before the spartans knock me 4 6 lol

]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14283[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14283[/IMG)

to end some in game screen shots enjoy
just double click to enlarge

]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14284[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14284[/IMG)
]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14286[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14286[/IMG)
]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14287[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=1&x=14287[/IMG)
if you like have loads more
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Zanderpants]

Ack
Monsiuer Flip:
For some reason, the Persian horse archer zoom in glitch keeps happening to me. No idea why it's changed. Sometimes it doesn't zoom in and some times it does. Same with the Skythic light cavalry since they're the same model. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

[youone]

Zanderpants
Sorry to hear you've got some zoom in glitch ,just too see if the glitch is across the beta testers I 've shot some pics close up in custom battles mine look ok ,tried it a few times ,but no glitch,does any of the other testers come across this glitch or will we put it down to graphic card (drivers etc.)
I'll show one pic here and place the rest in the Amphitheatre


]http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=2&x=14298[/IMG] (http://www.image-dump.com/view.php?m=2&x=14298[/IMG)


If I can help with any more just say
keep it coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[BarkingBeagle]

I have just won with the Thessalians. Geometric period. In the lifetimes of four Thessalian kings, the empire spread from two provinces across to Asia Minor, to the lands of the north, and even to the Spartan lands in the south. We rock.
I did, indeed, have huge rebellions at the end; six factions reemerged in one turn, but I simply moved out of the provinces they were in and let them kill one another, then bribed half of their army and moved my vast, vast, vast forces in to fight them.
Smack. They were all gone four turns later, and I got that neat end-game screen. I'll lay off testing for now and see about recording endings. I think I'm going to have to buy a soundeditor, as I can't find a decend shareware/freeware one.

[youone]

Count Zimoa of Flanders
Am I right that no online tests have being do ?,if there have is any tester up for a battle, come on it's alot more fun playing against a human genaral,
any offers will be taken on v3.1 of course http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
keep it coming http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[youone]

KOMM
Since the last update I have found it hard to last very long in battle on the odd occasion my lads have had the upper hand against the Spartans I've lost because when I engage with my general he's kill almost straight away yet the spartan general can run all the way across the battlefield without being killed or captured.
one occasion the spartan general's unit hops where all killed only him left yet for 10mins I chase him across the battle field with 60 or so hippies yet he got away ,but my generals only last a short time some has high as 4 star.
The Spartans where good ,but not that good?
I think this needs looking at http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-computer.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
keep it coming
but keep them Spartans away

[Omegamann]

I have the same impression about hoplite generals in my battles.
They are damn hard to kill, even when routed.
Having now fought a couple of battles against hoplite armies, I think the difficulty of the Tharcians schould be considerd as at least harder. getting the complete north under control, once you have to fight the hoplites, you have to be extra carefull.
Though peltast are good at killing these armored troops at range, once your out of ammo meeles are almost always very bloody costly affairs, as even a single enomotia hopliton can hold its own against 3 peltasts, even when surrounded, and attacked from a steep hill.
The thracian light cav also doesnt perform in these situations, as they dont have much ammo, and get slaughtered if captured in meele.
I dont know how the other northern tribes performe, but I think they have the same difficulties.
Still I extremly enjoy these close fought very tactical battles (as there is so much micromanaging involved, I had to use the pause feature the first time I played MTW).
To me its even a victory to hurt an hoplite army as much as I can and then orderly withdraw from the field, but holding on to conquered territory is not very easy.
One interresting development in my game is that I am one of the two dominant sea powers, the other being Athens my ally, who is also the dominant greek power having a strong power on the aegaen coastline.
Still I think the more advanced cultures should build more ships, to dominate the sea trade.

[Omegamann]

Another difficulty of the northern tribes is the unavailability of messengers and princesses.
Essentialy this means that:
1. the 3 northern factions will never ally
2. the notherners will not be able to bribe rebels in the endgame
3. the northeners can never request ceasefires
4. the northeners can not actively choose allies
5. the northener can not bribe other factions armys

I think thats pretty hard on these factions, and it does prevent the northerners from uniting against Greek agression.
I would propose to let them have princesses. That way they will still have some of the diplomatic difficultys, but still could try to unite.

[Omegamann]

OK first Congrats to the team for the good release http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Thanks for taking my advice on the Thracians, I will now try how they play in the newest version.

Now some suggestions on aesthetics and 'nice to haves':
1. Intro Movie:
After watching the Spartan game trailer I thought it might be nice to have an Intro movie for HTW.
This could be done in one of the following ways.
If someone has an appropriate movie on DVD or already as avi or mpeg it should be possible to take seqences out of it and remix it with one of the HTW music files.
(I am thinking in the lines of what STW did with RAN)
The problem is getting a good movie with hoplites in it.
Another option would be for Flip to create a rendered sequence of the already usable unit models and animations in Poser.
As he would need a background I would advice looking at the free stuff in renderosity (http://www.renderosity.com).
The third and maybe the more practical solution would be to get a good multiplayer game staged and recorded, and then using a screengrabber to convert parts of the replay into a movie.
2. Shadow animation in main menu:
Again maybe flip could create a larger scale animated sequence of some existing HTW units and create a black figure movie out of it.
3. New Map 360 preview images:
As the images of the new map are nor 360 I would suggest using a generic sepperator graphic (corinthan helmet maybe?), an paste it at the seam of the 360 graphic. Would look a little bit nicer than just having the landscape not fit at the seam.
To the one having created the Music Pack:
As the Viking Music is not overwritten, the pagan factions still get viking music sometimes. It does kind of fit, but if you want to have total conversion, these should be replaced with ancient barbaric tunes also.

A good source for original and free music is
this community (http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/sounds/)

[flip]

Omegamann,

nice suggestions but not easy. Also this will give a heavy HTW install file for download.
>>2. Shadow animation in main menu:
Again maybe flip could create a larger scale animated sequence of some existing HTW units and create a black figure movie out of it.
Tell me how to makit, I always asked myself about this....

[Omegamann]

Hi flip,
I think the movie should be an optional component just like the music files.

If I recall correctly the shadowfigures in the backround are either a movie or a animation sequence with transparency.
I will check tonight and come back to you when I found the file MTW uses.
If they are in a modable format (either movie, picture or bif) then it should be possible for you to create an animation sequence in Poser and then rework that to be black and white in a graphics programm.

BTW. Did you already know about renderosity? And might you have Poser stuff from Daz3d?
I am no 3d modeller, but when the first bif editor came out for shogun, I considered doing an sword and sorcery STW mod by using free poser stuff available.
Never had the time for it though and I also didnt know where to get good fighting animations from.

Thats why I am so happy that Duke John and you also realized that unitgraphics creation can be streamlined using 3d animation.

[Omegamann]

OK, I admit I was mistaken.
The files used for the background shadow animation in the main menu are under frontend_Files left.cmp and right.cmp
(That was easy to find out by looking at the file sizes of the files in the folder)
I guess each is one layer of animation (as the front scrolls at a different speed than the back)
Tested exchanging them with the ones from stw and I had Samurais instead of knights.
Then I did some googling and the closest thing to a .cmp movie or animation I found in the context of mpeg4 encoding, as cmp seems to be raw video data that can be converted to mp4 movies.
But I had no luck in finding any tool to dsiplay or edit a .cmp file.
So no luck an that part.
I will now download the bif reader, but I dont see why CA would call a bif file cmp

[flip]

Waw Thanks Omegamann

nice info there. I'll look further on that,
but it seems that may be a hardcoded stuff.

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

About the movie, In about four more hours I'll be done downloading the movie Troy, off of shareaza. I could maybe send the file as an email attachment to someone who would know how to take out a good battle scene like STW did with Ran?

I have fallen in love with this mod, so I really want to help in some way.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

EDIT: I just checked and it's an avi file, therefore it should be rippable. Oh and Troy is just the movie we need. It's very new, and I hear it has plenty of hoplites and battles.

Were in luck

[Omegamann]

Well
1. You should not take any scene from Troy except those from advertisements or trailers (as anything else would ne illegal)
2. Troy doesnt have hoplite battles, as the armor they use in the film are a somewhat stylised depiction of late mycaenan age armor, no hoplon is seen in the movies.

The best sources for Hoplite scenes are in the Discovery Channels Ancient Warriors Series (Spartans and Macedonians available) although these are not so spectacular as movie scenes.
As far as Movie scenes are concerned there are sadly not many movies made containing realistic hoplites.

There were some TV Movies made about Jason and the golden fleece, Ulysees and Helen of Troy, wich might be usable but have the same concerns about historical correctnes as Troy.
Other options would include the classic movies like Harryhausen Jason and the Argonauts, and the 1956 Helen of Troy or Alexander The Great of the same year

Of course some Rome Toral War Battle Scenes from Time Commander might also be used.
And then there are always these guys (http://www.legion-fourteen.com/greeks.htm) to talk to

[Omegamann]

I just came across this movie (http://www.hollywoodteenmovies.com/The300Spartans.html)(while searching for news on the announced movie adaption of Frank Millers greatest work (http://www3.tfaw.com/gn/profile.html?cart=4191123040522332&DB=c&sku=48339) in comics)
The greeks look realistic enough (sadly no corinthans, but something like attic helmets) and from a short review I read the fightscenes might not be as bad as other movies of this type.

[Byzantine Prince]

Haha, 300 Spartans; ROFL

I didn't know this movie existed. So old. They should reamke it with some cool actors.

[dimitrios the samian]

Hello all you siskinies , Ive been following your feedback since the start well done fella's .. but Im getting a little worried https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif
Have you all stopped testing ? as its been two weeks since any reports ...cheers.. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[komninos]

Hi all,

please visit this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=34827). It is a beta test on the economy model and I need your opinion on it!!

[Frodo Lives]

:knight:

Ok, I have finally had a chance to play the newest build and it looks and works great. (I killed my VI disk during beta testing so it took a while to get a new one).

I tried the economy model and it I like it a lot. Although personally I think the economy could stand to be even lower but it is not a big deal.

It would be awesome to have a campaign where to field a large military force would bust your balls money wise so a large army would only be good for a few years at best unless you have a huge number of areas bringing in many resources for your economy (after all, those soldiers have to come from somewhere right? More soldiers mean less workers for farms, mines etc.). Most countries of the past could only field a large force for 1 or 2 seasons of the year because the rest of the year the troops had to return home for crops etc.

But on a whole, great job. ~:thumb: :thumbsup:

:charge:

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Gentlemen,

More feedback please on the new startpos files with reduced money income.

LZoF

[komninos]

Hi all,

Here are the files for a number of patches and fixes (hopefully) that people talk about. This is mainly for test so post your experience with it.
Things that have changed:
1. New charge system. Somebody said some time ago that we can go from –9 till 9 so this is implemented and gives better granularity for the charge values.
2. New AI preference system. The calculation now take in mind the preferred culture so Persians though they can produce hoplites they will not do it in large numbers but you have to report back on that. If you like the Persian wars system of locking ht units in to the areas please say so I can pass it to the old HTW production files
3. Support Costs. Unit support cost will be ~20% of the production cost. This translates to a lot of money for a big army and lots of initial hostilities since most factions will begin with negative income. This needs further study since you still get of a good + once you get some foothold (though by the time I did that I did not have a big army).
4. Production time calculation changed. This will slow you down a lot! Production times have nearly doubled. Now moral, armor, attack and defense values are taken in to consideration (not only moral)

Oh one more thing ... the files (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/new-prod.zip)

[Ldvs]

Ok here's my report after 25 turns, geometrical era, playing as the Boetians.

Although the Argians are prone to attack a lot, as usual, they didn't manage to keep all the territories they had invaded. I reckon it's due to the longest time required to train hoplites. Therefore they can't bring reinforcements quickly enough.

The greek stacks are now quite mixed, i haven't seen any stack with more than 3 hoplite units in it (more akontists) .

I earn around 4000 gb per turn, but heavily rely on trade, if my ships were sunk my income would collapse. Even though i'm fairly rich, i couldn't train many hoplites.

The Lydians have the strongest military might but don't have numerous stacks (they're at war with the Argians).

Hoplites, polemists now break faster, when they lose half of their men (~60).

[Frodo Lives]

Wow, Komninos, you rock! :jumping:

I will try them out ASAP.

[Ldvs]

After 50 years, in the same campaign, i'm at war with both the Argians and Corinthians, the naval victory is uncertain, therefore my income collapsed, i now lose 2.500 gb per year (still have 60.000 gb).

Despite the Argians are at war with almost everyone, they withstand the assaults quite well (they were kicked out of Greece though).

The Illirians are doing well, they won two battles against greek factions the Thessalians and the Argians). Therefore i think the barbarians now play a greater role (none of the barbarian factions disapeared and still hold the north) .

Armies are still mixed, honestly it's the first time i face so many archers.

My conclusion is that increasing both the training time and the upkeep cost is the solution for not to meet gigantic armies, because the AI can't replace the units it loses quickly enough to get many stacks.

I hope someone else will confirm the AI isn't doing well only in my game.

[komninos]

This is not too good ... Greek armies should be based on Hoplites 3 - 1 at best 3 - 2 to other (light) units. Any way I have put some more work to the files ... ship building and support is not correct and must increase the Hoplitic proferances for Greeks.

[Ldvs]

I swear to you the battles are much more tactic, but i understand you want to be more historicaly accurate.

I noticed that you had put charge value below 0 for many barbaric units (i.e scythian warbands, phrygians auxilliaries, dasian rompheari). I think it's a pity because barbarians mainly rely on their charge. Then, when engaged in close combat they lose quickly due to both their lack of defence and discipline.

[komninos]

As I said before ... these are calculated values and charge is a heavy one. It is basicaly relative charge value so considering Persian skythed chariots get 9 the weakest charge unit gets -9 where do you put skythan light infantry?

I can give tribal units a push at the charge value. Now they stand about this level:
-------- Att -- Def -- Chg
Normal -- 1 ---- 1 ---- 1
Tribal --- 2 ---- 0 ---- 1

I can have them

-------- Att -- Def -- Chg
Normal -- 1 ---- 1 ---- 1
Tribal --- 1 ---- 0 ---- 2

[Ldvs]

Yes maybe giving them a stronger charge but reduce their attack would be better, but i'd like others give their opinions, because it's only my point of view.

[Saracen]

About 40 turns in to a Geometric game with the Spartans. The first 20 were fine as you did indeed struggle with the economics and a better balance of units was accomplished. I don't see an issue with a very few Hoplites early on. This is a military system that took a few hundred years to evolve. After 40 years I have about 15%-20% Hoplites and in another 40 years that will double or more. What is wrong with that? Have some patience. On the other hand I still think the economic model is to robust. While I struggled early on I have been through a major all out war and for a few turns went negative but now I am on "cruise control". I only have 7 provinces but I am making 10,000 a turn and have a treasury of 95,000. I can build whatever I want where I want. I think the issue is trade. Out of the 10,000 per turn about 80% is trade. I think it needs to be about equal to normal province income. My expenses by the way are about 3500 a turn so if I lose trade I would go negative by about 1500 but when I have trade I am accumulating way to much money which tides me over for a major war with no sweat. I am going to experiment and reduce the tradable goods as I did before but leave the province values alone. That way I will devote more attention to building those up to survive. I am going to reduce the trade values to 25% of their current number and continue to work with that until I get a reasonable balance between provincial income and trade income.

[Saracen]

I went to my current game which is 42 turns in after reducing trade by 75% but I did increase the imports to 50 from 20. That seemed a good balance of imports vs exports. At any rate my total income is 6861 with 3251 from trade and expenses of 3846. I have not expanded the trade to the total map either so I can get an increase in that. I think I will start yet another new game and see if I can survive those tough early years using this model.

[Ldvs]

Saracen, could you look a few posts above and tell us what do you think about the barbarians' charge value ?

I don't think we should decrease the value of the tradable goods by 75 %, I did need a good treasury because i had a negative income 20 years in a row, i lost 60.000 gb in 20 turns ! So maybe decrease by 25% but not 75%.

[Meneldil]

I've played 20 years with the new settings, and the game is much funnier now. Battles are more exciting, and though I did not have any money problem, I think it would be another thing in time of war (I've only sent a few raids against the lydian and some barbarians factions, who don't have any fleet that could screw up my trade roads)

[Saracen]

I would have to experience the charge value referenced to in order to make a valid judgement. I will look into it. Right now my focus is on economics and I have to admit every time I look at the economic model I have trouble understanding the rationale. I just started a basic Geometric game with several factions to try and see what the trade impact of the changes I made would be. I took the Argians and in 7 turns was financially solvent. With the reduced trade I was still getting 75% of my funds from trade and running a surplus. If I would of had full trade it would have only taken perhaps 3-4 and I would have been "cruising". Then for a change of pace I decided to look at the Phrigians and then the Lydians. I damn near dropped my teeth!!!! Gordion is producing 6000+ a turn, Sardis over 3000! I checked the file and the base amount for Gordion is 1455. So a normal 60% farm upgrade with an average Governor with a 2-3 acuman should be about 2328. Of course no one runs a province on normal taxation. Most of the time it is 200%. Then you add in a good Governor with a title and jack up the acumen and you have a farm income of 5709!!!! Throw in the other "goodies" and the province is cranking out 6000+ a turn. Enough to run the entire empire by itself and still produce a surplus. Then you toss in a starting Treasury of 60,000+ and you cannot spend all the money fast enough. Where the heck does that make any sense? I know that folks think this is a war game or battle game but it isn't. It is an economic simulation and that is the key to winning. You could let every battle be calculated by the computer and never move a single troop on the battlefield. If the economics are not fixed the barbarian charge value is irrelevant. I am going to spend the rest of the day and probably night starting a game as every faction, looking over their individual economics and try and bring some "balance" to each. I am doing this not to disagree with you but to make it a playable game for me. There is no "right or wrong" here only a matter of interpretation. By the way I agree with Omegaman about the northern tribes and lack of strategic agents. They have a tough enough time as it is and should be able to compete at that level.

[Ldvs]

If you're not happy with this economic model i bet you weren't with the vanilla MTW either ~;) It's only a matter of time before you run out of trading partners.

Just two questions :
- even though you earned a lot of money, were you able to train many hoplites? I'm not sure you were, especially when at war with several factions, the new training times don't allow you to replace all your lost troops.

- With your new economic model, is the AI doing well? It will probably suffer much more than you from this trade restriction.

I agree with you on the fact that some asia minor provinces still have a very high farming income (like the ones you mentioned).

[Saracen]

I played every faction in the original game. Of course when you got powerful enough the whole world ganged up on you. I came to expect that and trade was no where near the total percentage of income it turns out to be in this mod. I felt that through many, many years the economic model of the original game remained a challenge and an integral part of the game. My original download of this mod a couple of weeks ago provided NO ECONOMIC CHALLENGE at all at least for normal Greeks and the Eastern Armies. Haven't tried the barbarians yet. At any rate being able to build everything you want in units and structures all the time just doesn't do it for me. I read these forums and people have been bitching about the money and the huge armies and the all Hoplite armies for some time. Obviously more than one person recognizes there are flaws in the mod. I set out to make a game that is playable for me. I have limited experience in how to make changes so I started posting in the forums here to get some help.

Once again the mod is great work and I am not telling anyone else to do anything. I realize there will be a difference of opinion among players. My philosophy is do what pleases you. If the author of the mod wants to incorporate anything into his "offical" files wonderful but he has every right to make those adjustments as he sees fit.

To answer your specific question in my test game with the 'full trade" on and the Spartans I was able to have about 15-20% of the army as Hoplites in 42 turns. I had accumulated almost 100,000 in the treasury and was running a surplus of a few thousand a turn. At that pace in another 30-40 years I could have had anything I wanted. When I reduced the trade to 25% of the full trade I was still able to be solvent in 7 years but I didn't play beyond that to get into actual Hoplite counts. Obviously I couldn't be where I was in the previous game in 42 turns but I still don't know what the "curve" of growth would be. Balancing the Greeks is however only half the equation. I look across the water and I see the Phrigians moving 4-5 stacks into provinces and I say WTF is going on??? How can they have so many units after I cut back the trade? Then I look at Gordion and see it at +6000 a turn and damn near "spit up". Hell they don't need any trade at that rate! I am sorry and don't intend to hurt any feelings but the economic model in this mod needs MAJOR overhaul.

I didn't have the time to do everything I wanted to yesterday but I will today. I am going into every faction as a player and look at every province. I will be using the Geometric era at normal difficulty level as a start point. My goal will be that every faction will need to be concerned about economics. Not just in the first 10 turns but every time they go to major war until such time as they become a dominant power on the map. There will come a point that regardless what I do you will gain enough funds to do damn near anything you want. I sure as hell don't want that in the 1st 5 minutes of the game. I want to see some level of balance between trade and normal income in the 50-50 range. While I am at it I am going to address some inconsistancies in the unit build times/costs/support costs. For example the Phrigians build time for common light cav is 3. That was one of the more common units and easily raised units in their army. How do we justify that when a Hoplite is 3 years? Light chariots cost +1000-1500? Where does that come from? Support costs for a man and a horse should be about twice a man alone onaverage and ships represent perhaps and even higher rate as they not only have a crew and soldiers but the ship itself. There has to be some logic applied to these numbers and the end result needs to reflect some measure of historical accuracy.

By the way do you know how to add the strategic agents to a faction? I would like to fix the barbarians as well. Look forward to chatting again soon.

[Ldvs]

By the way do you know how to add the strategic agents to a faction? I would like to fix the barbarians as well.

If you want them to be able to train emissaries, well you must give them provincial estates and keep and a court of law. No need to tell you it'll change the whole game because if you do so, barbarians will be able to get all the upgrades.

Another way to give them emissaries is to simply add a few emissaries to them in the Hellenic_DA.txt for example.

MakeUnit:: ID_LANDREG_X Emissary 75

where X represents the province number.

[Ldvs]

I've literally halved (more for the Persians) the troops you get at the beginning of the proclassical era.

I also fixed the asia minor provinces farming income (reduced by one third in the "poorest" and two third in the richest) in all periods.

Reduced the trading income by 50% and increased the imports to 40%.

I'll begin a new game in the pro-classical era and tell you what's happening.

Saracen if you want my files, you know my e-mail.

[Ldvs]

I forgot to mention i also changed the initial treasury :

Novice : 5.000
Normal : 3.000
Hard : 2.500
Expert : 2.000

[Saracen]

LOL! I just finished doing some adjustments myself. I did look at every faction and their provinces. You might be suprised how close we came to doing some of the same things. I reduced by 50% the provinces that I felt were out of line which were the Lydians, Phrigians and surprisingly the Macedonians and the Thessalians. I also reduced all non owned provinces that had a value greater than 500 by 50%. I also specifically reduced Gordion by 75% just becuase its starting value was so rediculous. I continue to reduce exports by 75% and increased imports to 50% of that value. Then went into every faction and increased the taxation to 200% and wrote down some stats. Their total income, total support cost and surplus/deficit if any and put that in columns besides their current start money. I felt that their starting support costs needed to have a bearing on their starting money and whether they were running a deficit or surplus. I then looked at ratios. For example the Cortinthians have support costs of 962 and are running a deficit of -354 and they have start money of 7912. I established a formula of 5 times the support cost plus the value of 1 year's deficit or subtracted the value of 1 year's surplus. I used a factor of 10 instead of 5 with the barbarians which I consider to be the Illirians, the Peonians and the Thracians. So the Corinthians would be 5*962+354=5164 On the other hand again after all the above changes the Lydians formula was 5*3242+12=16222 while my friends the Phrigians were 5*992-1080=3880 They were actually running a surplus of 1080 even after all modifications. The only other factions running a very small surplus to start were the barbarians which is fine. Obviously I wanted to retain the "individuality" of the various factions while bringing the entire process into some semblence of a balance. Until I actually play some turns as various factions I won't get a feel for how this impacts the troop mix which of course is the result I am looking for along with a significant reducion in total army sizes. I did a few minor tweaks to build time for some units. For example I think the build time for the Phrigians worst infantry had been set to 2. I put it to 1. No justification in my mind for a 2 to raise the lowest level of infantry. Dropped the light cav from 3-2. Things like that. Nothing major. I looked at other factions and how long it took to raise a similar level troop and brought things back in line. I will be testing later this afternoon and tonight. Even though the specific details of changes are different it is not by much and more importantly we are both looking at the same basic causitive factors ie; reducing starting income, reducing trade significantly and reducing "out of line" provinces.

[Ldvs]

I always play with taxes set to normal in order to prevent rebellions, faction re-emergence and bad vices for governors, do you?

Also, have you reduced the number of troops at the beginning?

[Saracen]

I am pretty "nit-picky" when it comes to taxes. I check the rebellion level every turn and move taxes up and down as necessary. I usually leave a garrison of a couple of big low cost units in the "rear" provinces, crank it up to 200% and "cruise". Never have rebellion issues to my knowledge doing it that way and I maximize my economy for every penny. If I see a Governor "go bad" that is bad enough to warrent it I simply disband him and select another. I may remove his title and send him to the front as a warrior where he cannot do any harm if I care about the unit. I have only played the Geometric era and the number of starting troops in that era isn't an issue for me. My reasoning in working from the beginning is that if I can get the start of the game correct the ongoing eras will follow. If I jump into the middle of the game in the other periods I really have no solid "frame of reference" from where I started.

[Saracen]

About 25 turns into a game with Illirians. So far looks good. My question today involves a section of the DA_txt file. In the regional attributes ID_Landreg_68 is called "dummy" and worth 2000. What is that and how is it used?

[Ldvs]

About 25 turns into a game with Illirians. So far looks good. My question today involves a section of the DA_txt file. In the regional attributes ID_Landreg_68 is called "dummy" and worth 2000. What is that and how is it used?

I think it as a "model" and has no use at all., but Komninos sure knows better than me ~;)

I played a few turns in the geometric era with half of the troops we normally get and it was a total failure, the AI can't expand at all.
Therefore i think the starting number of troops at the beginning of the DA is just fine, no need to remove any units Komninos.

Although i think it'd be better if the greek factions that have a special unit don't get them at the beginning (PCL and CL) because it literally plummets the income (they'd get standard hoplites instead).

[Ldvs]

I've found out why we get dodgy farming incomes. I show you with an example:

Let's say the initial farming income is 100
We add the +20% : 100 x 1.2 = 120

and there's the "bug" : the next farming income is not calculated on the initial one like in MTW but on the improved income : 120 x 1.4 = 168 instead of 100 x 1.4 = 140.

It may not seem important for small numbers but if we take Gordion then it turns into a joke, especially if you put a high acumen general who adds +10% for each single acumen and once you get the "steward" vertu (10% again). I noticed that sometimes the income is almost doubled.
Maybe it was done on purpose but i really don't undertsand how it works then.

N.B: I may also have completely misunderstood the farming income calculation in MTW ~D . Correct me if i'm wrong.

[vodkafire]

I've found out why we get dodgy farming incomes. I show you with an example:

Let's say the initial farming income is 100
We add the +20% : 100 x 1.2 = 120

and there's the "bug" : the next farming income is not calculated on the initial one like in MTW but on the improved income : 120 x 1.4 = 168 instead of 100 x 1.4 = 140.

It may not seem important for small numbers but if we take Gordion then it turns into a joke, especially if you put a high acumen general who adds +10% for each single acumen and once you get the "steward" vertu (10% again). I noticed that sometimes the income is almost doubled.
Maybe it was done on purpose but i really don't undertsand how it works then.

N.B: I may also have completely misunderstood the farming income calculation in MTW ~D . Correct me if i'm wrong.

That's how it works in MTW though, so I think they designed it that way.

[Ldvs]

Considering the upkeep costs are now much higher this is not a problem at all anyway.

[komninos]

I would like to thank you all for helping me with your opinions and experiment to improve and solve the economic model with this patch you will find things a lot more restrained.
Unit production is a bit cheaper but still costs a lot.
Unit production times have been reduced
New more strict functions were used to calculate the farm income but I feel it needs some improvement
Trade goods income has been halved and the export / import ratio raised to 40%
I also implemented the change in the barbarian / tribal units
Here are the files (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/economy-model.zip)

[komninos]

Hi Saracen,

Here are some tips on the tricks we used in HTW.
The Dummy province is a province that produces a lot for the Rebel fonces ONLY! You can't get to that province cause it is not in the map nor it is conected to any other province

The East most provinces have a lot of income to represent the huge areas behind them in the east. Any way the aspect of the game is to unit the Greeks under one banner so to win you only need to hold the "Greek World" virtualy all provinces around the Aegean Sea.

If you check the startpos file you will see that some provinces have TRUE at the end these are the onse you need to get to win.

[Saracen]

The dummy province has a "value" of 2000. Since I was reducing other regions I was wondering what impact a reduction of that number would have. I appreciate the spreadsheet you emailed me. Talk about a "ton" of information!!!! I loaded your new files and I am going to start another game. What changes did you make for the Barbarians just so I can understand that one issue. Who specifically do you view as the "barbarians". I noticed in a game I was playing the Thessalonians didn't seem to have princesses or emisarries yet I consider them Greeks. I will let you know the progress. I looked at the files and the regions have been reduced significantly. Good! I anticipate trade may still be an issue but I won't pre-judge.

[Ldvs]

I've been playing with the new files for a few turns. Greek factions don't expand as fastly as they used to. I even find the Spartans a bit passive (i won't complain about this ~D ). You can expand when playing as them, so it's the AI... I've barely seen some Spartans' ships though, is it on purpose that the priority is this low (they are less prone to invade by see than the other factions) ?

In my game the Phrygians rule the roost, they kicked the Thessalians out of Byzantion and are on their way to invade several greek territories. They haven't wage war against any greek factions yet, so they might collapse afterwards.



Any way the aspect of the game is to unit the Greeks under one banner so to win you only need to hold the "Greek World" virtualy all provinces around the Aegean Sea.

If you check the startpos file you will see that some provinces have TRUE at the end these are the onse you need to get to win.

Good to know, i've never paid attention to this ~:)

[Saracen]

My game would not load!!!! I got two error messages:

Buildings not parsed, they must be parsed before units

Unknown faction specified, column 20 row 8, fn_egyptian

[Ldvs]

Who specifically do you view as the "barbarians". I noticed in a game I was playing the Thessalonians didn't seem to have princesses or emisarries yet I consider them Greeks. I will let you know the progress. I looked at the files and the regions have been reduced significantly. Good! I anticipate trade may still be an issue but I won't pre-judge.

The Thessalians just don't get any emmissaries at the beginning but are able to train them after they build a court of law. I guess the barbarians still refer to the Illirians, Poenans and Thracians.

Playing with taxes set on Normal, trade is not an issue, but feel free to mod it like you did before ~;)

[Ldvs]

It looks like a forum chat room ~D , mine loads with no problem so far, try a fresh install. I had to reinstall MTW and HTW because each time i exited my game freezed and sometimes i wasn't even able to use ctrl+alt+suppr.

[Saracen]

I always keep the original MTW "fresh". I checked it and it worked fine. I did another copy of that to a different directory and installed the HTW mod. It booted and worked fine. I then installed these new files and it will not boot per my previous post. The issue is in those files.

[komninos]

Saracen, I will check the files BUT make sure you have all of them ... so this patch has to go over the Persian wars patch (not all files are included) if not just delete the PersianWar file from the campmap\startpos. Since we are no a test face for this I don't wont to make a full install. Just for now.
If you like the new system then I will check with Zimoa.

Tribal units have -1 in defence and +1 in the charge comared to the normal units.

BTW Spartans have to stay where they are ... they don't like concuest and they will only go to war if they are thretened, attacked or basicaly get pissed off by you.

[Ldvs]

It's really weird because if the files were corrupted my game wouldn't launch as well, have you tried downloading them again?

[Ldvs]

BTW Spartans have to stay where they are ... they don't like concuest and they will only go to war if they are thretened, attacked or basicaly get pissed off by you.

I like to see them where they are too, don't worry ~D I was just wondering if it was intentional, and obviously it is.

[Saracen]

Let's try this again. I had a working game to begin with, no issues. I extracted these files and it won't boot now!!!! I don't have a clue what the Persian patch is. The only thing I have ever done is install the latest HTW, one patch one install. Just to test I removed the prod3 file and the first error message about parsing units, bulds went away. The Eqyptian error message is still there and the title of the box that appears is

columns_buildings_factions_associations with this message:

Unknown faction specified column 20 row 8 FN_Eqyptian

Where the hell is that being loaded???

[Saracen]

I threw out the prod3 file and all other files in the startpos except the 3 hellenic time periods and the vssver.scc It then worked???? Those same deleted files were always in the previous game but after inserting these new files there perhaps is a conflict between the existing files and the new ones. Where ever the building associations are could be the issue.

[Saracen]

Started out as the Lydians. The first inconsistancy deals with the Egyptian warship. Costs 670/2 turns to build, support is 22, stats are 2215
The Phoenician warship costs 220/2 turns to build support is 7 and stats are 2325. Unless I am missing something the much cheaper ship is much BETTER in its stats. Explain please? If what I see on the surface is correct the Egyptian ship should be like 5526. I am going to make that change right now because I don't want to screw up the game I am playing with an unbalanced navy. I still would like comments however as to this issue and what you think the number should be. By the way there are 5 numbers that represent the ships like 35527. What does the first number stand for?

[Ldvs]

It sounds like you've already reported that ~:p With such a high cost it should be as strong as a driere (4346), or at least a penticonter, which is 4343. Note that the egyptian warship has a better strengh than the greek's, and i don't know what the strengh refers to.

[Saracen]

I looked at the spreadsheet for all the ships and the 2 Egyptian ships seem out of line on a comparative basis. Also the build time for the Pheonecian seemed short. I did the following and by the way the first number is range. I increased the build time on the Phoenician to 2 turns. I made the early Egyptian warship 3,5,5,2,6 (cog) and the later one 3,6,7,3,8 (boom) They still are not the very best but now are competitive with the Greeks and still cost more.

[Ldvs]

You may know that the lighter greek warships were much better than their persian counterparts, so maybe it was done on purpose to reflect the superiority. Perhaps 3,4,4,2,6 for the ealy one (better than a penticonter and as good as a driere) and 3,5,5,3,8 for the later one would have been more realistic. Once again it's only my opinion.

By the way, if you wanted an economic challenge i don't think the Lydians are designed for you ~D

[Saracen]

I am willing to make adjustments to the ships that make sense and was juts suggesting what I was doing until something "official" comes out. I am doing well with the Lydians though I got down close to zero in money. I built just enough to maintain the balance on the positive side. If what you are saying is the Lydians are not an economic challenge my reply would be why not? Every faction should be a challange. I wanted to see how the Greeks would do in building Hoplites without my "player" influence on their side of the map. I just started to see some in 114. I have kicked the Greeks off Asia Minor and my last battle faced two Hoplites in the troop mix. I suspect the Greek economics like the Lydians is still to strong. We shall see.

[komninos]

Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

[Ldvs]

When talking about ships, each time i help an ally recover his province and my troops are sent by see, they demand a ransom after the battle... I can't remember if it happened in MTW either. I guess i shouldn't be that kind to them.

[Saracen]

While I understand what you are saying about the Egyptian ships I don't think their effectiveness is as poor as the numbers indicate. Also the Greek ships stayed pretty close to shore as they were truly not ocean going vessels and in any kind of a fight in "open water" they were much less effective as the the Eastern ships could use their strengths. No one in their right mind would buy them and use them for the amount of money they cost. What the Eastern empires lacked in quality they made up in quantity. If what you say is correct then they should be cheaper and there should be more of them.

I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

I have to say the same thing about allies in a battle. The province goes to "I think" the largest army that came in if that side wins. Your army gets held hostage and has to pay to free itself. That is "nuts" and I don't recall if it is in the original game but when I see it happening and I am not sure if I am biggest I withdraw from the attack if I can. The other alternative is let him do all the fighting and take the losses and then jump him before the battle ends to win the province.


This bug was also in MTW and is hardcoded sorry nothing to do with the HTW files and yes it is annoying.

LZoF

[Ldvs]

After playing as the Illirians for nearly 100 years, I agree with Saracen, the barbaric factions really need emmissaries.
Maybe you could lower the prerequisite for the court of law, although courts of law are definitely not designed for barbarians. Perhaps a building specific to them like "diplomatic school" or simply "school" could be a good idea too.

[Ldvs]

I'm still wondering, after playing your mod for a month, who gets the valour bonuses from the provincial estates. My first guess would go to emissaries, because of the prerequisites for the court of law, but I've never paid attention to them. If someone knows...

[komninos]

Yes, we know about it ... have to find a way with out needing to change the production req. of the units ... though I dought it :( ... at present and with the RTW just a moth away ... I have a fealing it is useless :(

I will find a way tough.

[Ldvs]

All eyes are on RTW I agree with you on that. If you think it's useless, don't bother with it I'll do it myself by lowering the prerequisites for my own game.

[komninos]

Hi all,

I have produced a new patch for the economy model we have developed ... not hearing any debates about it mast be OK. So all you need is the latest download from our site (The one with the Persian wars) and this patch to play all periods. If you have downloaded any of the older economy file with will overwrite them.

So have fun, the files are here (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/economy-model.zip)

[Ldvs]

Your previous economic model was ok for me anyway. Could you make a short list of the changes because they aren't obvious ? ~;)

[JR-]

cheers, i am d/l'ing it all now.

presumably the install is: main .exe > economy patch > music if wanted?

[Ldvs]

Indeed, but you won't need to add the patch, LZoF just uploaded the newest version that includes the patch. ~:)
The music pack is great, just follow the instructions step by step and you'll face no problem.

[JR-]

ace. 77% completed.

just out of curiosity, how will i know if the main .exe contains the updated economic system? is it differentiated in any way?

[Ldvs]

You couldn't find out which was the new and which was the old one. I just know the new files are uploaded because LZoF said he uploaded them ~;p

[JR-]

my file version is 2.0.0.21, has that changed?

[Ldvs]

I swear you downloaded the latest version ~:pissed: I'm about to spank you ~;)

[komninos]

Hi,

Not many changes ... you need a Palestra to build any hoplite unit and you need the goverment bouildings to get the special hoplite units (Agora or Estate depending on the calture) and max pruduction time is 4 for the Thebian Secred Band while 3 for all other special hoplites.

[Ldvs]

I was seeking some economic changes in vain, no wonder I haven't found any ~;p

[flip]

kom, in previous pack for Persian Wars there was this file:

PersianWar_faction_specific.txt


its missing in this last pack

[komninos]

Hi flip,

Well this file is in the last built of the HTW mod file this was just the new economic model with some refinements in unit building and production time. Buildings like Palestra were sapposed to give some bonus to the unit but since they are not used in unit production they did not. Now they are in so they do give there bonus to the units.

[Dyonisius]

Hi all,

I started playing as the the Persians in high, proclassical? And have a couple of questions=

1. what are the yearturns for classical, proclassical, Persian wars and geometric?
I tryed the search engine but didnt find anything.

2. The Large Egyptian warship is much more expensieve then the Phoenican warship while its stats seem to be lower.
The same happens between Lydian heavy infanterie and Kardakes, the latter being more expensieve.
So is there any reasan to get them, playing as the Persians?

Thanx

[Ldvs]

1)
SetEarlyPeriodStartDate:: 100
SetHighPeriodStartDate:: 250
SetLatePeriodStartDate:: 450
SetGameEndDate:: 550

Since that's impossible to count years backward in MTW they were compelled to use years AD, but it doesn't really matter ~;)

2) The egyptian ship issue was already discussed earlier. Quoted from Komninos


Hi,

In the ships everything is deliberate so please don’t change them. It took me 1 month just to get the spreadsheet the produces these values look OK.
The Egyptian war ship is there to reflect the all stile of naval warfare where ships these ships were slow and carried a large crew. They relayed on archer fire and boarding techniques to achieve victory. This made them unmanageable. The Greek and Phoenician ships relayed on there ram to break the enemy ships. They were fast maneuverable and could rake havoc in the enemy with a good well trained crew. These ships were cheaper from the old stile since they required less time and less material.
There are actually two Phoenician ships the one represents the standard Phoenician Trirem and the other is the one reported as the “super fast” Trirem. This was a light very fast ship that was faster than the Greek ones but was more vulnerable.

EDIT : DA = Dark Age = "early era"

[Ldvs]

Komninos, have you found a way to allow barbarians to train emissaries yet? or should I alter the files myself?

[komninos]

I did not wont to have the Northern people to have emissaries ... you can use the Princesses in almost the same way. If you still need them then lower there production needs

[Dyonisius]

Ldvs, Thanx for the reply.

But I still dont get it. The stats for the Egyptian Large warship are: 3,4,2,8 support cost:42 Price:1260
The stats for the Phoenician triereme are: 6,6,3,7 Support cost:19 Price:760
Also the Egyptian warship takes longer to build.
Now both need a dockyard to be build, so why should someone decide to build a Egyptian one? It isnt so that there are ristrictions in wich provinces they can be build AFAIK. Maybe there are some hidden stats that dont show up ingame and are of great impact, dunno.
So is the Egyptian ship stronger somehow?

Sorry for my ignorance, as I just picked up this game.

[komninos]

First you can’t build them both until later in the game,
Secondly ... here is a little story, in WW2 Germans build a number of weapons that were to remain as the most unsuccessful weapons of all time. They were both expensive and useless. These ships are just that. Like it or not.

[Ldvs]

I did not wont to have the Northern people to have emissaries ... you can use the Princesses in almost the same way. If you still need them then lower there production needs

That's ok for the diplomatic part, you can compensate with princesses, but I meant it was handy to have emissaries or something able to strip titles off governors ~;) in case they go nuts. I'll use assassins from now then ~:)