That pesky "good runner" vice

[afrit]

Hello,
I was playing Italians and had been using Bohemond de Tankerville (starts as 5 star) as my main general. That is until I used his unit in a crucial battle to plug a hole in my (collapsing) line. He fought valiantly, but when his urban militia was down to 15 men or so, he routed. He rallied soon after and I pulled enough units and reinforcements together to win the day, so I thought he should get promoted for a win. Instead he is now a good runner. ( He really ran for a minute at most I mean give the guy a break. He was probably feigning retreat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

Then I made the mistake of using him in the next battle. Although I had my troops lined up well and *should* have easily won, I found that they broke pretty easily although they were doing quite well. One unit routed and then it was a chain reaction. Somehow I managed to win that battle as well after assembling the remaining units in a wooded area and then getting some reinforcements.

Needless to say, I am pissed that my best general appears to be no good anymore. Is there anything to be done about this?

And finally, if you are losing a battle, would hitting withdraw give your general that vicious vice?


insight appreciated.

[amir]

withdraw gives no vices.
and once a unit was routing for 10 seconds and the comp gived that vice,

[amir]

The funniest thing is that on the first time i had it and i had'nt read the description i thoughts its increase the units speed and i made sure all of my generals had a good runner, once i read what it actually does i said http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif and restarted.

[Navaros]

it's a very stupid Vice, i hate it

sometimes you HAVE TO run. ie: a full battle that has full reinforcements on both sides... eventually either you make your General route, or he will DIE for sure.

so your choices are: Good Runner or a dead General. that's BS.

there should be ANOTHER OPTION. one that lets you safely retreat your first General in huge battles that have more than 1000 men from each side fighting each other; and you get NO PENALTY for doing so

[Papewaio]

There is another option... withdraw your general before he routs... and make sure he doesn't get run down as he withdraws.

Good runner is bad... but at least you start to understand how important morale is in the game... you can trigger a morale chain rout against the enemy to.

Also look at the religous buildings... build these as they add to morale.

If you can get the general from 5 to 6 stars (right land title such as Ile De France) then you get +2 to morale (almost wipe out the penalty). Line the general up with high morale units... knights and swords. And there you are he is almost as good as new.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Quote[/b] ]it's a very stupid Vice, i hate it

It may be a really nasty one to get, but I disagree with it being stupid. Many of the vices and virtues have to do with how the people in the game view the general in question. If he was in a unit that routed, even if it would be understandible for that unit to rout, it will appear to the people that that general places his own hide before everyone else in battle. It's not comforting to be led by someone who's been associated with watching out for him(or her)self. The morale penalty seems, to me at least, a good and creative way of implementing one of the key elements on the battlefield: the untangibles of the soldiers' mental condition.

But yeah. It is REAL hard to erase this vice and it is terrible when you get it in say, your only four star general.

[Papewaio]

Mind you I still havn't figured how to trigger famously brave... if it is possible.

I assume the general would have to be the first unit to attack and the last one to leave... need to use a very hard to kill all round unit like Militia Sergs... or Knights but make sure you have someone to engage the spears ASAP.

[Ograbme]

Going after a high-profile target may help. My king got the Legendary Hero virtue when he personally cut don the English king in battle.

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Papewaio @ June 24 2004,19:49)]There is another option... withdraw your general before he routs... and make sure he doesn't get run down as he withdraws.
maybe i am not understanding something, but how do you withdraw your General? the only way i know of to get units off of the map is with the ROUT button.

[Gregoshi]

To withdraw a unit, select it and press control-W. You can also right-click on the unit (only at the bottom of the screen?) and select withdraw from the popup menu. The withdrawing unit(s) form up and march off the field of battle with their dignity intact.

BTW Pape, that is a very good suggestion. I had never thought of doing that to save the general.

[Papewaio]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif Another thing I do to protect the general is have an identical unit type at one of its rear flanks... its job is to intercept flankers/take the hit to the rear in battle, lead the charge with the generals unit supporting it.

Also after the battle I use that unit to top up the generals unit.

[Darth Binky]

Just be careful with the Withdraw option because doing it too often can lead to your general getting the Doubtful Courage V&V (I think that's what it's called).

While not quite as bad as Good Runner, it still sucks.

[The_Emperor]

The important thing is to make sure your general is a Cav unit, preferrably a Knight so he can have the mobility on the field to withdraw and engage at will without losing face.

Now if you know the years your faction's heroes turn up you can then engineer your heroes to be a cav unit by only training a cav unit that year.

I also find it important for your general to get in some kills during any battle, even if it is just mopping up a few routing peasants and that should be enough to offset any Doesn't fight enough V&Vs.

[Navaros]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ June 24 2004,23:40)]To withdraw a unit, select it and press control-W. You can also right-click on the unit (only at the bottom of the screen?) and select withdraw from the popup menu. The withdrawing unit(s) form up and march off the field of battle with their dignity intact.
argh and all this time i thought that WITHDRAW was used only for getting your units out of fights that they are currently engaged in

i had no idea it moved them right off the map

*smacks himself very hard in the forehead*

silly me.

thx for the tip. now i know, and knowing is half the battle

[English assassin]

I think you get doubtful courage if the general's unit goes too many battles without itself engaging the enemy.

It seems to be a counter like the continually retreating thing, so long as he fights for a bit once every few battles you don't seem to get it.

[Don Corleone]

Quote[/b] ] Now if you know the years your faction's heroes turn up you can then engineer your heroes to be a cav unit by only training a cav unit that year.

Does this mean that all factions have a great general who pops up sooner or later? I've been playing for about 6 months and I never noticed this. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Is there a chart somewhere of who the hero is and when he appears? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[Papewaio]

... I think anyone with 6 stars will always pop up around a certain date or thereafter... maybe it goes lower then that... but if you play a faction enough times you get to see the same generals pop up... the French have a few nasty ones in the Early Era.

[YAKOBU]

Hi Don Corleone http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I have a hard copy of a heroes list that I got from this site. If you do a search for heroes you should find it. Note heroes are available 16 years after the date shown (birth date).

A big example for the English is Strongbow FitzGilbert who is available in 1131 with these stats:

Command: 6
Dread: 4
Piety: 5
Acumen: 5

If you can't find the list tell me your faction and I'll give you a rundown.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Blodrast]

Quote[/b] (Darth Binky @ June 25 2004,04:25)]Just be careful with the Withdraw option because doing it too often can lead to your general getting the Doubtful Courage V&V (I think that's what it's called).
ok, two things:

1. is it correct what i recall, that even if you retreat your general the first thing after the battle begins, your troops still get his bonus ? if so, which of the bonuses exactly (att/def, but no morale ? or morale too, but as if they were all more than 50 m away from him ?) is SP the same as MP in this respect ?

2. i'm sure all of you have seen this in your SP games: when you order a unit to withdraw (ctrl-W), quite often (especially if the unit has suffered heavy losses within its ranks), right before disappearing off the map, the flag on the unit's icon starts flashing, as if the unit was wavering, and sometimes it actually remains on, i.e. the unit is routing. I'm not sure why this is, this happened to me for crappy units (which would have lousy morale, and I can understand that by being far away from the general, no flanks covered, etc, their morale might decrease even to that extent), but how do you explain it happening for really good, high valour units ?
then the question comes naturally, if you retreat your general (with ctrl-w), and he does that wavering/routing trick most units do while withdrawing, will he get a coward/runner/whatever vice ? How can one prevent this (since he's really NOT running away or anything, just withdrawing in order).

[sir_schwick]

Quote[/b] ]1. is it correct what i recall, that even if you retreat your general the first thing after the battle begins, your troops still get his bonus ? if so, which of the bonuses exactly (att/def, but no morale ? or morale too, but as if they were all more than 50 m away from him ?) is SP the same as MP in this respect ?

From what I've seen, any bonuses from special valor, i.e. valor from a general's command rating, only apply to the general that is on the field. If your force is led by a 4* but withdraws and leaves a 2*, then everybody loses the 4* bonus for a 2* bonus. I might be wrong, but if I am not, then this also means when you kill and enemy general, they may also suffer stat penalties outside those specific for a general dying.


Quote[/b] ]2. i'm sure all of you have seen this in your SP games: when you order a unit to withdraw (ctrl-W), quite often (especially if the unit has suffered heavy losses within its ranks), right before disappearing off the map, the flag on the unit's icon starts flashing, as if the unit was wavering, and sometimes it actually remains on, i.e. the unit is routing. I'm not sure why this is, this happened to me for crappy units (which would have lousy morale, and I can understand that by being far away from the general, no flanks covered, etc, their morale might decrease even to that extent), but how do you explain it happening for really good, high valor units ?
then the question comes naturally, if you retreat your general (with ctrl-w), and he does that wavering/routing trick most units do while withdrawing, will he get a coward/runner/whatever vice ? How can one prevent this (since he's really NOT running away or anything, just withdrawing in order).

I don't know why they start routing, but you might try hitting Halt(backspace) before they reach the edge of the map. This way they can turn around(no longer back to enemy) and gain back a tiny bit of morale, then they can try withdrawing again. No idea if it will help, but its worth a try.

I have had to withdraw from a battle I was doomed to lose. It was a 3 faction invasion with double armies and my missile troops were running out of ammo. I had caused one of the armies to rout, and suffered few loses, but knew the time was right to withdraw. No one ran and I covered my rear with my general, but he still got the good runner vice. Does the general not leaving last incur a penalty?

[amir]

Quote[/b] ]Is there a chart somewhere of who the hero is and when he appears?
i have a link to a Egyptian (http://db.gamefaqs.com/computer/doswin/file/medieval_total_war_egyptian.txt) game guide which also include a hero chart for the egyptian, hopes it help

[Oaty]

I actually have come to the point of believing that the not so bold vice to be completely random. Seems like once a unit gets to a 6 star or above it will have a good chance of being generated into the unit. I've had a 7 star urban militia unit that only engaged in about 2 of all of his battles and never got the vice. Whereas a 9 star general that killed a man in every battle got this vice, Look at it more of a bad rumour that got around.

As far as the good runner vice goes, I hate it and can make the game too easy. Sure for the human you can retire the unit. But make a king a good runner and you can RUN all over that faction. I remember crushing the Turks really quick because I smashed the king in the first battle who had become a good-runner. The good runner got upgraded to coward wich is -9 morale. I had bound the Turks into 1 province with 20,000 men and me only a few thousand. All I had to do was come in with a spearwall and some archers. All I had to do was demoralize them with the arrows and before anyone got close to the spearwall the chain route would envelope with only a small salvo of arrows.

[Duke of Gloucester]

I think there is a random element about whether the not so bold vice is picked up or not, but only when events in battle warrant it. I have only seen it with generals who genuinely haven't got stuck in battles. Sometimes it comes after 1 or two battles; sometimes Its hard to avoid this with foot units, so I like the idea of engineering good generals with cavalry.

The same is true for good runner. I like these vices. I think they are realistic and it gives you something more to think about during battles. In STW you could protect your general, but in MTW you have to get him involved, without having him run away.

I think oaty's war with the Turks is exactly what would happen if a leader did repeatedly run from battle, and other nations would be queueing up to fight him too

The vices I hate are the ones you can't avoid, like crack brained

[Gregoshi]

Speaking of crack brained and things you can't avoid - welcome to the Org Duke http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

And speaking of good runner, gotta go...exit, stage left.

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ]1. is it correct what i recall, that even if you retreat your general the first thing after the battle begins, your troops still get his bonus ?
- yep, just check the little valor flags. If either you or the AI withdraw your commanding general the command valor remains. If it didn't stick, then as soon as the AI withdrew his 9-star, 1-man general unit ( http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif ), then all of his units would lose 4-flags. As for the morale bonus (+1 morale per 2-stars, beyond 50 meters from general) I'm not sure, but my guess is the units retain this bonus - if valor sticks, why not morale?

[afrit]

Quote[/b] (afrit @ June 24 2004,14:57)]Needless to say, I am pissed that my best general appears to be no good anymore. Is there anything to be done about this?
I appreciate all the info in reply to my original question. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

As an update, I used that general (5 star with Good runner vice) in a few more battles. He routed in one of them, earning a Doubtful Courage vice (-6 morale), so things were getting worse http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif . Then I decided to use him on a bunch of rebels (remnants of the last egyptian province after death of king) figuring that their peasant and decimated troops would not cause a rout in my professional troops despite the vice (plus I outumbered the enemy 3 to 1 http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). I won that battle and in fact I used the general's unit in the thick of fighting.

Now I just checked on him, and he has the Not so bold vice (-2 morale) so it looks better http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif The good runner and Doubtful Courage are gone. He also picked up expert attacker somwhere along the road http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif . So obviously he will not be retired.

Anybody can confirm that you can rehabilitate the reputation of your general?

afrit

[Inuyasha12]

Of course you can, being defeated in a battle is only a part of a generals career.
If you use him more often he will get better.

[Papewaio]

I have seen Proud go to Lazy on a general a few times... I find that progression quite funny... very funny if I have just married off a princess to them... just need to see the generals put on a bit more weight and not worry about their appearance as they now have the princess.

[Inuyasha12]

Yeah that is one of the vices i hate so much.
What does it do again, -something to health?

By the way very funny sig- http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif

[gaijinalways]

Ah, I will have to find some easy battles; I have a 6 or 7 star general with the good runner vice, I want to keep him around if only for his great builder status Thanks for the advice guys.

[amir]

If you have a good runner, its OK, (just don't ever use him in battle)

[Inuyasha12]

Yes use him in battle if not just to get rid of the vice.

[amir]

You cant get rid of vices, and winning with -9 morale (or is it -4), is'nt too easy.
my advice, just put him in a lone province with no forces if you dont want to disband him)