Weird battles

[mcv]

I had a couple of really weird battles this week. I should have saved them, but forgot to. In one of them, a single unit of Hungarian Royal Knights slaughtered two units of my
Chivalric Knights, and his crossbowmen charged and slaughtered all my close combat troops.

I outnumbered him 2 to 1, and used crossbowmen, militia sergeants, chivalric sergeants and chivalric men-at-arms, as well as the chivalric knights I mentioned.

In another battle, slightly less absurd, my halberdiers, men-at-arms and full unit of chivalric knights were quickly slaughtered by the Hungarian Royal Knights, crossbowmen and handgunners.

I admit neither of those battles were shining examples of brilliant strategy on my part, but this kind of slaughter has never happened to me before. What's in that Hungarian water?


mcv.

[Papewaio]

How many flags did the unit have?...

if he was the general he could have had 15+ valour...

P.S. Did you have any spear units?

[amir]

it is possibile to know the valor by counting flags? and what flags are you talking about anyway?

[Papewaio]

Those little triangle flags that your units and the enemy carry each stand for one valour.

You can estimate an enemy generals effect on his troops by finding the lowest number of flags... if the enemy units all have two triangle flags you are facing a 4 or 5 star general.

[amir]

triangle flags, are you talking about those tiny flags that some units carry with know obvoius reason, or on the big unit flag, with the nation symbol?

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] ]Those little triangle flags

[Accounting Troll]

The tiny flags.

A unit with lots of tiny flags will usually defeat an identical unit with no tiny flags.

If a unit has lots of tiny flags, it means one or more of the following:

1. The unit is made up of very experienced soldiers.

2. The army is led by a highly skilled general whose prescence gives a boost to the fighting ability of all his men. However if the general is killed, his men immediatly lose the combat bonus from his leadership. Byzantine armies can be very difficult to beat because most members of the Byzantine royal family are highly skilled generals.

3. Individual vices and virtues have improved the fighting ability of the unit, eg the general is a skilled defender or the unit leader is prideful.

4. The unit was trained in a province that gives a valour bonus to that particular unit type, eg longbowmen trained in Wales.

[Inuyasha12]

Your army was outfought becaouse it was unexperienced, and fighting a experienced foe.

Or really, really bad luck. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mcv]

Later that game I noticed that Hungary has guild upgrades for weapons and armour, so chances are that those inferior Hungarian forces actually had pretty good attack and armour stats.

However, I do recall another weird event from one of those battles. I'm defending right on the edge of the map, his Royal Knights charge me, my unit (some kind of sergeant, probably) breaks and runs, and the knights pursue far into the red zone, except for a few that are still fighting another unit. I can't target them, however, because the main part of the unit is in the red zone.

In another, more recent, bridge battle, I had something similar. I was Italian, and after his first assault on the bridge, I had beaten him back. I pulled my units back to my side of the bridge, but a couple of my Italian Infantry were stuck on the bridge. Most of the unit was lined up nicely on my side of the bidge, but there were holes in the formation, and the guys who were supposed to be filling those holes, were still standing on the bridge. And the computer player could target them, because the archers who were well on his side of the bridge, kept picking off my Italian Infantry.


mcv.

[HARALD THE RUTHELESS!]

Its a bug I believe. Happens often to guys who fight on bridges for a long time. Some of their men will get stuck and I dont think theres a way for you to pull them out. Maybe routing works, I haven't tried.

[The_Emperor]

Try issuing the withdraw command (Ctrl and W), to pull your men back. That normally helps to pull units out of the fray.

Routing them can be bad because even if you manage to rally them their morale will be fragile... And if its a general he will probably become a good runner.

[garion]

he will definately become a runner. Also, if to much of your troops are ordered to run (or just the wrong ones) Yoyu could lose the battle instantly.

[The_Emperor]

Yes and the sight of routing friendlies doesn't exactly fill your own troops with confidence.

At least with the withdraw command they retain their order and dignity as they move off... Not running and screaming like a girl as they leave the field

[Gregoshi]

What is wrong with leaving the field running and screaming like a girl? I don't mean that from an equal rights standpoint, but rather from an it happens to me all the time point of view. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Gregoshi @ July 01 2004,15:01)]What is wrong with leaving the field running and screaming like a girl? I don't mean that from an equal rights standpoint, but rather from an it happens to me all the time point of view. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
All Hail Gregoshi Master of the Good Runners, with doubtful courage http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Tricky Lady]

I remember that in one of my first battles as the Turkish I was facing an inferior Egyptian army.
However, I forgot about the panic camels cause to horsies. My Sultan was busy fighting some peasants when two Egyptian camel units charged him and almost instantly routed him. This caused a massive chain rout. Battle lost. Sultan got good runner vice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

[mcv]

Another weird battle. This time as the Turks. I conquered Constantinople, but the Byzantians try to take it back. I start out confident, but he has lots of heavy cavalry, and I'm a bit short on horse archers.

After my Turcoman horse archers suffer a bit too many casualties and have expended most of their arrows, I give them withdraw orders to remove them from the battlefield, so I can get reinforcements. I do the same with my cannons, but a bit too late. As his troops hit my line, the Turcomen still haven't left the field, so I can't call any reinforcements yet. The cannon crews take way too long too, and pretty soon, one unit after another breaks and routs. So my entire army leaves the field, and I'm a bit disappointed about the prospect of having to take it back from all his heavy cavalry, but then I notice that I still have 2 Turcoman horses and 1 cannon crewman on the field.

They're in a forrested corner where I can't see them. I can't change their orders, but the enemy can't target them either. So I set the speed to maximum, wait a couple of minutes, and win the battle because these units were unable to flee properly. How's that for weird?

My 7 star general ended up with Doubtful Courage, however. -6 on morale, and the description sounds like he transfers that penalty to the entire army. So, should I let him lead armies with that kind of Command, or should I hide him away so he won't spoil anyone with his rotten morale?


mcv.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] ]My 7 star general ended up with Doubtful Courage, however. -6 on morale, and the description sounds like he transfers that penalty to the entire army. So, should I let him lead armies with that kind of Command, or should I hide him away so he won't spoil anyone with his rotten morale

His rotten Morale will have a major impact on any army he fights.

Think about it, even just the Good Runner vice takes off -3 in Morale. Thats a Whole Cathedral/Grand Mosque Morale upgrade... A -6 Morale penalty has in itself pretty much made him a useless commander.

Best keep him away from the front and set him up as a governor in a quiet backwater somewhere and let another upcoming general take his place.

(should he have a governorship that increases his command rating, such as Scotland, Trebizond or Constantinople I sugguest you strip him of those titles and give those valuble command stars to someone more worthy of them)

[Papewaio]

Morale bonuses and penalties apply to the whole army.

Good Runner means -3 morale to the Army

Valour bonuses apply only to the generals unit.

[mcv]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ July 01 2004,13:31)]Best keep him away from the front and set him up as a governor in a quiet backwater somewhere and let another upcoming general take his place.

(should he have a governorship that increases his command rating, such as Scotland, Trebizond or Constantinople I sugguest you strip him of those titles and give those valuble command stars to someone more worthy of them)
He's governor of Constantinople and Chief Eunuch (what an honor), so I can take two stars away from him. But without those, he still has 6 acumen, so I definitely want to keep him in Constantinople. Fortunately, being Turkish, I don't really have a lack of good generals. It's just that this one used to be my best one.

Oh well, as soon as my king dies, I can make some 8 or 9 star generals out of hormer heirs.

I assume morale penalties only count for the whole army when the general has them? I don't have to check all my units for morale penalties, do I? And I can still field these Sipahi of the Porte when they're with the king?


mcv.

[Papewaio]

Only the general who is leading the battle.

Some of those morale bonuses added to things like Mosques etc mean that your guys get so morale happy that they will fight to the death.

A lot of the time it is not who has the best unit but who has the highest morale. Morale is the silent attribute of MTW, don't ignore it.

[Nowake]

The Hungarian Royal Knights often get huge valour. It is not a rare sight a group of these guys smashing through yout Saracens like through butter. Use arbs

[Serpent]

Valour is important once I haved about 17 men against 3000 russians and 7500 Mongols...My unit was chivalric Men at arms and he was level 9 general in battle he was 12 star general but hed problem vices caved him -24 moral he had coward vices unhinged loon and that kind of stuff...

Now i but this sissy fight to the dead on the bridge and mongols camed soon behind me ...then he killed 1 russian and runes away.....but..Mongols stopped him...he get stagged ....now he is running in the bridge and killing mongols like a madman also russians... this went on and on....and result was that I won and he killed 4000Mongols and 1900 russians. =)I didin lost single man because two men that ware loss I could randsom them...and what I got was general whit 3stars all valour bonuses and capture vice. This unit had highest valour I have ever seen 34.

[Maeda Toshiie]

Those little triangle flags

Each of those flags denotes +1 valour of the unit. Each flag is attached to a different soldier (The main unit banner also sticks to one guy). If there is not enough guys in the unit, not all the flags would appear. A one man Jedi general with valour 20++ may not have any flags but he would fight like a 60 man Joms rolled into one.

Most of the unit was lined up nicely on my side of the bidge, but there were holes in the formation, and the guys who were supposed to be filling those holes, were still standing on the bridge. And the computer player could target them, because the archers who were well on his side of the bridge, kept picking off my Italian Infantry.

Sticky problem dating back to the STW. Try moving the unit around, especially giving those guys on the bridge a straight line back to their original unit.

Yes and the sight of routing friendlies doesn't exactly fill your own troops with confidence.

At least with the withdraw command they retain their order and dignity as they move off... Not running and screaming like a girl as they leave the field

Morale effect:
Routing Friendlies: up to –12 when 2 or more friendlies routing, depending on the relative quality/class of routers.

They're in a forrested corner where I can't see them. I can't change their orders, but the enemy can't target them either. So I set the speed to maximum, wait a couple of minutes, and win the battle because these units were unable to flee properly. How's that for weird?

There are some bugs regarding the withdrawal of troops where they would get stuck and refuse to respond (being in the red zone).

My 7 star general ended up with Doubtful Courage, however. -6 on morale, and the description sounds like he transfers that penalty to the entire army. So, should I let him lead armies with that kind of Command, or should I hide him away so he won't spoil anyone with his rotten morale?

That morale penalties affect the whole army when he is in command. If he is not, then it applies to his own unit only.

Lets see... 7 star == +3 special valour points to all troops. +2 morale to units within 50m, +1 morale to units further.

You can _almost_ cancel out his penalties. He may still be worth using, only in command of an elite army with morale bonuses from buildings, since your main purpose of having him around is to grant valour to the units and hence increase their h2h stats. Also, getting him into h2h should be mainly sparse without letting him to run away from the field in terror (again). Try to use him only in the pursuit phase of the battle.

Of course, if you are flooded with high ranking generals you can just toss him into the bin.

The Hungarian Royal Knights often get huge valour. It is not a rare sight a group of these guys smashing through yout Saracens like through butter. Use arbs

Kings and heirs tend to get those great warrior, natural leader and even the pride v/v. This makes them extremely deadly.