Russia need help vs. English Billmen

[mikebailey2000]

I've been playing MTW for a few years. I can win with almost any faction on Hard levels, but I finally tried the Russians. At first the Mongols crushed me. Then I decided to build nothing but Halberdiers for the first 10 years of the game (until the Horde shows up). I fought off the Mongols by putting a ton of Halberdiers in the forest and holding position until the battle ended. Cheap move, but it took care of them by never giving them a foothold country.

I quickly wiped out the rest of the world except the English. They own half, I own half. They crush me every time we meet in battle because I have no answer to the Billmen. Russia has no sword units And I have no Gallowglasses or anything similar to take the place of them. What can I do to stop this slaughter? The Russian prince needs your aid

[amir]

Boyars are your answer, quick and deadly, just have some and a spearmen at front - at least a quarter will be archer destroyed and the spearmen will finish them as the boyars can come behind and mellee attack them, but whatever you do dont let them attack your boyars at front, they cost more and not worth the sacrefice

[Medieval Assassin]

I've never played Russia, except once, I got 3-4 units of Mecs ( Dhunzia...Or however you spell them) They dis-mount into 60FFK... very deadly, keep a look out for them. However, All I can really think of, is to get some Rus spearmen to hold the line, and try to get around on their flank with some Rus spearman, charge from inbehind, they will take lots of losses, and probably rout, when they are routing run them down with Boyors, or other light cav thats faster... Go for light if you have it, also use Archers, Crossbows, and Arbalasters against them, they should weaken them before they even contact your line... Woodsmen are armour pierceing, it may also be good to have some of them around, they've won battles for me...
Good luck

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Medieval Assassin]

I would have to disagree about flanking with Boyars, if the games on hard the computer gets +4 morale, even if you charge them they probably will not rout right away, they may turn around and fight a little...Boyars would then be in trouble... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-surprised.gif

[amir]

Yeah i have'nt thoughts about that, it could be deadly to the boyars, BUT I have a better idea: after the billmen gets to the spearmen, run behind the bill men, but not close, and arrow them they would either
1)turn around and charge you - your spearmen will start attack them on the back as the boyars will go behind your spearmen, you returned to the situtain as the billmen lost troops as the result of the spear back attack, and the spear could take them easily, plus it they lose morale because of the arrow attack.
2) keep attack the spear - just keep shoting.

just play a bit with the boyars - one of the most flexibile units in the game as its powerful at both melle and arrows.

[ah_dut]

good advice amir

[amir]

Thanks, it SHOULD even work, I just need someone to check if it works, i'm good at planning stuff but not at actually doing them, although i'm pretty sure that, that idea will work very good, it still need to be checked.

oh and how did i forgot
Welcome to the org mikebailey

[Neubs]

The answer is simple: if they give you trouble, don't fight them. My best advice is to find land not defended by billmen and take it. This will give you more money and take from the English. Before you do anything though, get naval superiority. Let the English attack you, billmen are slow and will become serpentine fodder. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[ThijsP]

Citaat[/b] (amir @ Juni 27 2004,14:41)]Thanks, it SHOULD even work, I just need someone to check if it works, i'm good at planning stuff but not at actually doing them, although i'm pretty sure that, that idea will work very good, it still need to be checked.

oh and how did i forgot
Welcome to the org mikebailey
Nope it doesn't work very well. I played a costum battle with 4 v1 billman against my 3 armoured spearman and 2 boyars.

The billman charge in to the spearman, and starts killing them badly. The arrows dont hurt the billmans very much and after a while the spaerman flee and the spearman turn around against the boyars, with almost full units.

[ah_dut]

i forgot the welcome so http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif
anyways, back to buisness, the idea is if you charge the billmen from behind but don't engage, they must turn around to meet the charge(at least according to our local MTW god Katank) so the armoured spears can get em in the back. Done it myself with Italian light inf.

[Medieval Assassin]

Crossbows and Arbies...Crossbows and Arbies, I just tried this out in a custom

Me 2 crossbows,1 boyar,3, armoured spearmen




Boyars_

Them 4 billman, 2 long bows, 2 royal knights, 2 spearmen, 2 hobilers...

Game... I started out with the corssbows about 40 feet infront of the spearwall, on hold postion, the billman started marching forwards and the hobilers moved on my flank, the royal knights stayed behind the boyars and the spearwall was mixed in with the bill-men


|ROYAL KNIGHTS| |ROYALKNIGHTS|
|Bills||Spears|Bills|Spears|Bills||Bills |Hobilers|

My crossbows started hitting the wall from far range, killed lots of spears, and some bills... Bills charged my crossbows, when they were about 60 feet away a volly killed about 20...then at about 10 feet, and volly of 120 bolts, killed the front lines of each unit,I ordered the crossbows to withdraw behind the spear wall, meanwhile my boyars were killing the hobilers and royalknights, By this time with about 25-30 mean left in each bill unit, they engaged my spear wall, while I moved my crossbows on the flanks. and shot into their flanks, they wernt long routing because of the losses and insecure flanks, my boyars had finsihed off most their cav, and chased down the routing billmen,

Kill to death

3-1

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Why are you using *armored* spearmen?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif Billmen eat armor, so you shouldn't be using armored spearmen to stop them, right? (I've haven't actually tried it yet, but common sense...)

Definitely use Boyars. Unless they are using Longbows. In which case, um, cry. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif Seriously, try to drive off the Longbows with light cav while peppering the billmen with Boyar fire. Repeat. Use some flanking, hold billmen still with UNarmored spearmen and... pray.

Hope it helps Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif .

[ThijsP]

Armoured spearman are stilll stronger then normal spearman. The armour piercing only decreases the effect of armour. So if money is no problem use armour. IIRC armoured spearman also has more moral.

[pdoan8]

You can use a pairs of units to defeat Bill.

For attacking Bill (flank or rear them): use Viking (available to Nov but may not for Russian) or Dismounted Druzhina Cav (60 FFK, available to Nov/Rus in Early and High). Use these with either spear (Rus Spearmen or Armoured Spearmen) or Boyar/ Steppe Heavy Cav.

- You can use spears to hold the Bill then flank/rear att them with Vik/Dismounted DruCav. Let your spears take the beating while your sword/axe do the killing. Dismounted Druzhina (FFK) should do the killing fast enough to save the spears.

- You can lure the Bill into your trap using mounted missile like Boyar or Steppe Heavy. Circlying the Bill shooting them (or may do a fake charge) to lead them pass/near your sword/axe unit. Charge your sword/axe unit into the Bill back (the closer you are the better). Bill may turn to face your sword. If the 2 units are too close, Bill may not have enough time to turn. Once the Bill engaged with your sword, charge your cav into their rear.

- You can also use more lethal missiles like javeline (Slav Javelinmen) behind your spears or Arb/xbow to kill them as they approach. You may be able to distract them with your mounted missile and may be make them run around while your arb/xbow do the shooting.

Be warned: AI is a little smarter in Hard and Expert, so don't expected them to always fall for your trick.

[Zortanius]

Building on Amir's, Med Assassin's and Pdoan8's advice:

On Defence:
IMHO there is one tactic which always works in MTW - that is to use arbalesters - Medieval Assassin's tactics are spot on. Use as many arbalesters as possible - they are absolutely deadly. Of course you have to get a few rounds in and it won't work as well if it is raining.

Basically get dismounted duzhina and spearmen in the front line to prevent the billmen from breaking through and attacking your missile units. Also use merc swordsmen.
Set the entire army to hold position and the arbies to hold formation as well.

Another thing you could do would be to use boyars and steppe cavalry to draw a few billmen out from the main deployment, pepper with arrows and then charge from both sides - always charge with the steppe cavalry into the back of the billmen and then once the billmen have turned slam home with the boyars. The latter will cause more damage but the steppe cavalry should take the initial countershock. This way you are also attacking the back always. A variation on Pdoan8's excellent suggestion. using horses is sometimes better because they can run faster. Also try an armour upgrade on the steppe cavalry - they are quite cheap to train.

On Offence:
Basically send in a large enough force to make the general retreat from some province that belongs to them. Then once you have moved in keep a defensive army with lots of arbies. About 6-7 years and 6-7 defensive battles later, using the tactics described above - you would have locally exhausted them. Kill all captured soldiers. Branch out and repeat.

Also try, if possible, to avoid fighting billmen heavy armies - strike where the enemy is soft and yielding.

Good Luck,

Cheers

[The_Emperor]

Billmen huh?

Ok here's what I sugguest.

Billmen are dangerous because of their Anti-Cav stats, just like Halbs they get a hefty bonus when attacking Cavarly, along with an AP Attack.

Bad News for Russia as it maintains a very cavalry heavy army.

Fortunately you do have access to several good quality Horse Archer unit types, (Boyars and Steppe Heavy Cavalry tend to spring to mind). Use them to harass and weaken the Billmen in their advance... Try to avoid slugging it out with them because you'll take a kicking.

As has been said Pavs and Xbows work well to soften them up, try using gunpowder units as well.

I know Gunners don't kill very many people, but the morale penalties they inflict can make a huge difference in a fight. (and of course Morale is everything in this game)

Your halbs can actually be of some use against Billmen if they are able to come in on a flanking attack while the Billmen are already engaged... If possible get a non-armoured unit to absorb the initial charge of the Billmen (Slav warriors are actually good for something here), focus you main pressure of better quality men on the unit flanks and and rear.

Short and sharp cav charges into the rear or flanks can be of use, but you must remember that in a slugging match those Billmen you will get a bloody nose... So hit and run with Boyars.

[dessa14]

i would use a byzantine strategy.
i guess you control syria.
just pump out hundreds of assasians and train them up on weak generals.
then hit the heirs.
its easier with a cathloc you just send grand inquisitor after grand inquisitor.
during my game as italy i once burnt the pope.
thanks, dessa

[Oleander Ardens]

If you face only Bills a combination of Boyars and dismounted Druzhina cavalry will eat them.

The Boyars/Horsearchers/Steppes/MC will wear them down, tire them so that your OP cheap FFK unit can straightly march through them...

A nice alternative are the huge masses of cheap SlavWarriors which should overwhelm them by sheer size or -more subtle - those nice Slav Javelinmen.

Cheers

OA

[Ludens]

Quote[/b] (Medieval Assassin @ June 27 2004,21:20)]I would have to disagree about flanking with Boyars, if the games on hard the computer gets +4 morale, even if you charge them they probably will not rout right away, they may turn around and fight a little
Medieval Assassin, the computer gets no morale bonus on hard, only on expert.

[bighairyman]

always flank, or hit from behind. hold up the line using Rus spearmen, and some infantry for backup, then go around and hit them from the back. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Crash]

I would love to fight the Engish and their billmen. The secret to defeating them is not to fight them, but to kill them. The strength of the Eastern armies are horse archers of all types.

Boyars and Steppe Heavy Calvary supported by Armored Spearmen, Crossbows, Arbalests, Woodsmen and steppe calvary should have an easy time with the English. Use the calvary mobility to stretch and flank the English while pooring arrows into them from every angle. Build hordes of Woodsmen to make overhwhelming flanking and ambush attacks on them.

Use strategy to force the English to attack you instead of you attacking them. The horse archer and calvary are actually better defensively because the English will have difficulty trying to catch them.

I'm inspired to play an campaign game as the Russians now...

[Inuyasha12]

How serious is this problem of yours because i've played against the english many times and they don't seem to field billmen that often.
But if you still have trouble just remember that the key in easter armies is mobility. Like many have said already, pin the billmen with a junk unit(like slav warriors) and flank them with horse archers or preferably boyars. Have some shoot and others charge at them.
The morale loss of being attacked from the rear plus the morale loss from being under fire should be enough to break them in minutes.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[HARALD THE RUTHELESS!]

What do you do with most heavy infantry? Tie them down with light infantry so they wont get their AP bonus. Use boyars or other cav units with high charge bonuses to flank them. They should be wiped out pretty easily.

[Oleander Ardens]

Well the 60 man strong FFK from the dismounted Druszhina cav is cheap and easily handles the billmen. The AP bonus does only weaken the effect of armor, so that an armored unit may no longer be that priceffective but will still taking less casualities than a unarmored one.

Now even a normal 40 FFK unit will handle the Bills which will run far more easily than the FFK - imagine than a 60 man strong force which costs only 25 florins more than the Bills...

Plus the Druzhina can also be used, even if rather unlikely as cavalry. This increases the tactical versatility of the Stack.


If you want a easy victory, use the classic HA game to give your FFK all the the advanteges, so that the bills will get ripped with minimal losses..

Cheers

OA

[Maeda Toshiie]

I would have to disagree about flanking with Boyars, if the games on hard the computer gets +4 morale, even if you charge them they probably will not rout right away, they may turn around and fight a little...Boyars would then be in trouble...

Only in expert does the AI get +4 morale. Other effects due to difficulty level (culled off the other site):
The combat strength of the a.i. units is affected by the difficulty level.
On easy its combat effectiveness is reduced by 30-40% (can't remember the exact figure).
On hard it's increased by 10-15%, and on expert its 30%. 30% being around 75% of the increase you'd get from 1 valour upgrade.

Dont be silly and go charging round your boyars like knights. Deplete their arrows first against the enemy. Then use them in pairs and tag team the reduced enemy unit. One in front and another behind. Aim to crack them at the instant of the impact of the charge. If they have a good general, kill him first or the bonuses would prevent them from breaking and allowing them to prepare for their post-battle feast with horse meat.

With the Russians, you have the option of fighting muslim style with mounted archers. Those tactics are very useful against those heavy catholic armies.

Why are you using *armored* spearmen?? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif Billmen eat armor, so you shouldn't be using armored spearmen to stop them, right? (I've haven't actually tried it yet, but common sense...)

Bah... armoured spearmen's armour is only at 3 without upgrades. That adds +1 to the attack of the billmen. He would be worse off with plain spears.

Pavise arbs are also very useful in cutting down the numbers.


****** cant really read through everything. May have posted what some others have said before me.********

[katank]

couple of things.

1. No Rus spears in High, early only.

2. druzhina rock and as the russians, you don't need to hire the merc ones. available with horse breeder and swordsmith. very nice.

3. feigning cav charges will often get the enemy to turn around and try to fight unless pinned. however, I've seen some units not respond and go into pretzel formation, freely slaughtering my rear/flank attacking troops with ease and still pounding the hell out of my pinning unit.

pure boyars and druzhina should own anything. 8 boyars would provide fairly impressive firepower and 8 dismounted druzhina would be 480 FFK and few armies can provide that much melee power.

I'm still a big proponent of arbs. shoot them down with lots of bolts. also, arbs don't seem to be affected by the rain.

may I point out that brigands are also fairly nice for screening your front lines.

slav warrior pin and slav jav flank an shoot is the most cost effective method for just about any army. morale is key so keep the slav warriors on hold hold and maintain the line.

as long as they don't break, it will be fine.

[mikebailey2000]

Thanks to everyone for the valuable feedback.

I have never actually used crossbows or arbs against the computer. I have always hated the slow fire rates and the inability to shoot from behind my lines (on level ground). So I took your advice and cranked out lots of crossbows and arbs, and it seemed to help some. I did not get the results some of you expected (some of you were wiping out 30-50% of the charging billmen, but I was lucky to get 10-20%) but it was better than with archers. And the crossbows and arbs seem to live longer if they get hit by the enemy.

As far as all the flanking advice... If only it were so easy. The English are cranking out tons of troops (6 Billmen per army is common, and 6-12 armies per province is also common). Without greater numbers, any attempts to flank him usually fail (as my flankers get flanked by his reserve). And my pinning troops (armoured spears) usually don't last long enough for me to get a decent flank going even when I do slightly outnumber him.

I did draw some Billmen out with Heavy Steppe and Boyar (general) units, hit the Billmen from behind with the Heavy Steppe, then charge the Boyars up the Bill-butt when the limeys turned to face the Steppes. That crushed them immediately. So I will try that more often. The only problem with it is that he usually has a lot of arbs or longbowmen blasting my horses while I try to draw out Billmen. GOD I LONG FOR SOME DECENT LIGHT INFANTRY I tried to hire some at the inn, but no one needs a job. I guess the English hired 'em all already ;-)

All of your advice has gotten me to the point that I now take 2-1 losses (in the English favor) instead of my previous abyssmal 8-1 losses. So since I slightly out-earn him, and I have 250,000 cash saved up, and I control the seas, I now think I can pick him apart by hitting in his weak points.

I would still love any more ideas on how to get my arbs more effective. And how do you keep him from flanking your flankers? By the way, Druzinas are not available to me anymore...

[katank]

counter is to have your guys outside their screen so if they try to hit your flankers, they'll get flanked etc.

BTW, it's a game of rock and scissors. Also, how can you not produce any more druzhina? you are in late now?

[mikebailey2000]

Yes, I am in late.

[Oleander Ardens]

Well I think we listed all options, now comes the hard part, now it comes down to tactical understanding. How to mix them and integrate them into a working concept..

As you seem to be used to the Spearwall I would combine it with a set of HA and/or boyars.

For example (High):

2 HA or MC
4 Boyars
4 Arbelasts/XBow
4 FFK
2 Slav Warriors

This setup eneables you to wear down the enemy with HA supported by Boyars and still retain a solid backbone.

Cycle the HA and replace depleted Arbs, Warriors etc.
Chase fleeing enemys with the HA and some Boyars to keep them running, but not engage in heavy fighting with fresh ones.

You might use a constant stream of Slav Javs, behind the FFK (two/one ranks) or to harrass isolated Billmen. Don`t hesitate to use the P initially, but try to get it to work without it by training in small battles...