View Full Version : Playing as the Holy Roman Empire
The enigmatic key to playing the HRE in early has evaded me for a long, long time. But finally, I have it
First of all is to build all of the 1 and 2 turn buildings possible, so that your Emperor gets all the x builder virtues, that fixes your low loyalty problem, and also nets you a little extra money in the form of mines and farms. Second is to ignore tech-ing up your military - hi tech military is needed for fighting wars, and the HRE can't afford to fight any wars.
Steadily building toward creating a low-tech army in the south is the next step, and netting Venice before the Italians can get hold of Italian Light Infantry with that low tech army is next. Storm the castle before you can get excommunicated. Venice gives you a high income province with plenty of trade. I figured the Italians might be a little peeved at the loss of their capital province, so I left my quite large army in Venice to enjoy the sights, and began pumping out ships to tie the first strings of a trade empire. The other side of the peninsula, Provence is also building toward a port and trading post.
As I can't afford a major standing army on the frontiers of the Empire, I figured a central reaction force would be the next best thing. In Franconia and Burgundy, I slowly added to my forces there, and will be doing the same in Austria when I begin moving into Hungary.
I chose these three provinces because they are central, are large and in contact with many other provinces (allowing for rapid moving of the response army), and are relatively secure from pre-emptive strikes - no enemy can attack the reserve force and damage it so badly it can't counter the forces the enemy sends into the provinces the army is supposed to protect.
Province specialisation is another major help. Where this technique usually allows you to race ahead in the technology tree, I've used it at a much slower rate, building up to the simple, cheap upkeep units and then focusing on morale benefiting buildings. My current setup allows me to build a respectable army in about 4-5 turns. As I will be expanding on the south of my current Empire, I have developed this region more than the north, which I mean to simply hold onto with basic garrisons.
I build FMAA in Switzerland, FSs in Burgundy, Mounted Sergeants in Swabia. Archers and pole-arm production is split between Tyrolia, Switzerland and Burgundy. an army consists of 4-6 FS's, 2 FMAA, 2-4 Archers, 2 Militia Sergeants, 2 Mounted Sergeants. If I will be facing strong resistance, I throw in a Prince with his Royal Knights to lead it.
It's a simple setup, some might call it flavourless and noob-ish. Crude line of spears and tutorial-taught flanking maneuvres. Hey, I don't care. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif It's cheap to build, is equally effective on offence and defence, easy to play on the field, and can deal with pretty much everything thrown at it.
I have keeps in almost every province, castles in some, am making a profit of about 6,000 florins a turn, and the years aren't even into the 1200's yet. I've only made two conquests - Venice and Pomerania. Venice for the money, Pomerania was a conquest of opportunity.
It took a while to stabilise the Empire and get it into an economical position where it is capable of acting like the continent spanning behemoth of a nation that it truly is, but in the end, worth it.
Admittedly, all this is nothing compared to the experts on this forum, but hey, I'm happy with it - for a first time success with the unstable HRE, it isn't bad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
The only thing that puts me off with the HRE is its relative lack of flavour until the later stages of the game. Gothic units aren't available for a long, long time, until then, you have to use the reliable, but repetitive ranks of standard issue Catholic military.
Still, I'm happy with the results. Just thought I'd share the joy, and see if there's any tips going for entering the high period... the French, as usual, look set to consume everything in sight. The English death throes are occupying them for now, but after that, they'll probably turn their greedy eyes eastwards - to me.
The Italians seem to be coping well with the loss of Venice - they have a few large stacks in Genoa that could potentially cause trouble should our shaky alliance go to the dogs.
The Byzantines, to my knowledge, are becoming a trade powerhouse, centred around Constantinople. At least it isn't the Turks. They have the largest army and probably the best naval forces in the game at this stage, as well as superior units. Any ideas on how to put a dint in their strength would be appreciated.
Thanks for reading my probably pointless ramblings, and cheers to anyone who offers advice and comments. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
damn, you played the germans and had no civil war, not even one, it's impossibile they are a civil war nation, one ofmy german generals rebeled although that i gave him a princess and a title.
you sure you have'nt mod the game so they wont rebel.
100% sure.
No civil war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
As I said, I built watchtowers and border forts in every single province, followed by 20% farms and inns. Only then did I move on to build forts. So many buildings popping up at once gave my Empire the first builder virtue in the first turn, and the second tier builder virtue on the third or fourth. A hell of a lot of governors got Steward too.
I ended up with massive happiness bonuses that saw me safely through the first few steps of the campaign.
I am dreading the Emperor hismelf dying - I'll lose a lot of happiness bonuses. When his unfortunately weedy successor hits the throne, the taxes are all coming down to net me a few happiness virtues.
If there's one thing I learned, it's that you absolutely have to play it safe. Take no chances with the HRE. On a previous game, I invaded Venice and lost, and a vice gained by my Emperor caused a civil war through lack of loyalty. This is why I took no chances and built every happiness and loyalty-boosting building I could, as quickly as I could, to get plenty of good virtues on the governors and Emperor.
It's not impossible, it's just very, very difficult. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I think you forgot a one very,
the last time I played I moved east, have'nt yet conquerd Russia and BAM two civil wars, one after the other, so with an appx. fourth of my orginal control and army, I were way tech, and numerically back, god damnit, even the argonese had more soldeirs, and that was in easy
Expanding early in the game is suicide for the HRE, they can't build troops fast enough to cover the territory.
It just leads to revolts and civil ward that will take your faction out completely, or impede you for years.
I have been playing the current campaign (the one I described in the first post), for about 20-25 years or so, and have only conquered two provinces in all that time. If you plan on expansion as the HRE early in the game, every move you make must bewell thought out: Does the province you want to attack have important resources? Is it strategically important? Does it produce a unique unit you would find useful?
If the answer to all of those is no, then I would reconsider the attack.
More importantly, you must attack with enough force to guarantee victory. A single defeat on the field of battle could trigger a chain reaction of rebelling generals. Every time you send out your armies, you risk everything. Make sure the scales are tipped wildly in your favour. If your enemy retreats without a fight, even better.
Don't be afraid to abandon a province if you're attacked either, fighting and losing is much worse for your loyalty than a tactical retreat with the intention of returning later with greater strength. You can afford to lose one or two provinces for a few years - you can't afford a civil war in which you will lose about half of your provinces for much longer.
So in one sentence the way to win with the germans is to play SLOWLY, so before you will go to conquering generals will be loyal, am I correct? or do i need to read it all again and see what i have missed?
Exactly. Take it steady, build your loyalty and income, make strategic movements that will give you a dependable income. Slowly build your strength before commiting yourself to a conflict. Keep taxes set to normal until you're sure it's safe to raise them. Lower them immediately if anything catastrophic happens, like your Emperor dying, or moving a major military force out of a province.
Treat your provinces like they're made of glass - because one wrong move, and they'll shatter and cut you.
Slowly pretty much sums it up. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
hmm...
o.k.
after reading this i have decided that after i'll finish my Turk campaign i'll play with the germans, it would be funner because with them you must keep sure on those things that with other nation at late its no problem and with them you need to constantly do something so you never get bored.\
BTW
Who do you think is easier to fight after the Italians, the Polish and Hungarians or the french and the English?
Deal with the Italians very carefully, as you risk excommunication. Either hit every province they have at once, and make sure you're not caught in sieges. Or, take one or two provinces with massive force every decade, then sign a ceasefire. Don't get excommunicated - there's too many catholics on your borders that can crusade into your lands.
I would advise trying to take the rich French provinces, Normandy is one of the best trading provinces in the game. Toulouse in the south is good too. Taking these provinces also means you won't have to face the monstrosity that is late period France. Also be prepared to slug it out with a well developed muslim faction - either the Turks or Egypt will probably be very powerful by the time you reach them. Forget the Almohads, Spain will probably munch through them.
Another thing - no Crusades. At least, not in the early period. You can't afford to have one fail, and you won't be able to hold the province you capture anyway.
Be sure, be steady and be ready, and playing the Germans will reward you extremely well.
Alexander the Pretty Good
06-28-2004, 17:28
Huh. When I play slowly, my Empire falls apart. Usually I take all of the Italians AND the pope. Screws my chances for Crusades, but I can't get much from them anyway, as you noted. By then, the French, Poles, or Danes have attacked me and I have to go and fight them (easy when the pope is not in the picture). Yeah. HRE is tough. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif
What difficulty do you play on? Usually hard for me.
By the way, in your first post, you said you would build a trade post in Provence with the ship-building buildings. That's impossible to do, since Provence has no trade goods (quite annoying as the HRE, since it is your only Medditerranean province until you go to war http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif ). Just a minor correction; I will have to try your strategy soon
Thanks for the insightful post
My experience with HRE is very limited, since i like to start out small, but this is still good educating reading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Anyway, the thing i wanted to ask. How come you do not have problems with other factions attacking you when you take it slow. I mean you said it yourself that you leave your main forces in central provinces, thus i assume many of your bordering provinces do not have a big garrison. So why don't the French, the Danish, the Italians, well basically everyone want to try and grab a piece of your lands?
well put it this way, militia do pretty well in german forests http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif also, if you take it fast you'll probably have a nice civil war
Lt Nevermind
06-28-2004, 22:14
I've played the HRE only once and I didn't get a civil war in that camp. Unlike many of you, I'd recommend the quick advancement, though. Why? To avoid civil wars you need loyal generals, to get loyal generals you need influence, to get influence you need to conquer You cannot go head on against everyone however, you should only attack against one faction (preferably small) at a time so that you don't increase your already massive amount of border provinces. You'll still have to stretch out your troops during the first decades or so...
I play on hard.
As I said, I got loyal generals by patiently building and accumulating Steward and builder virtues. I daren't risk a rush in case I pissed off the Pope accidentally. Excommunicated and in the state the Germans begin in means certain death.
I pretty much allied with everyone I could, bar the Italians. As my kings influence and list of allies built, enemies were reluctant to attack. My Emperor how has maximum influence... The only province that has been attacked by anyone is Venice - the Italians attempted to break the siege I had on it once. The next turn it fell and I signed a ceasefire.
I may have got lucky with the minimal aggression style my neighbours seem to have.
Another reason I don't like the idea of stretching out your forces early in the game is that they're already horribly stretched, you simply can't afford to rush anyone in a major way. My delayed, prepared strike at the Italians took a long time to set up, and was instrumental to my development as a faction. Needlessly rushing weaker factinos doesn't really get you anywhere - weak factions tend to have poorer lands and are usually not worth the trouble. Surgical strikes against rich factions are the key for me at the moment. I'm building towards seizing Normandy and Sweden for domination of the northern trade, though I'm leaving Denmark be - a valuble trading partner. Ceasefire with the French and Danish will be signed ASAP.
mikebailey2000
06-28-2004, 23:58
When I played HRW on hard I won by using a slow expansion strategy as well. I built all the cheap buildings and cheap farms to get Builder/Steward. Made lots of alliances. Built lots of cheap units and disbanded those with really low loyalty when I could. One thing I did every round is check the loyalty of the general in charge of the unit stack. If he hated me, I dropped his unit by itself next to the army and checked the loyalty of his successor. I repeated as needed until I got a loyal general in charge of the stack. I never seemed to have generals revolt when I did this, and loading up lots of militia or woodsmen or javelinmen to control my province loyalty kept civil war away. Once I had so much army that I was not making much of a profit anymore I tried to find the weakest neutral enemy (preferably rebels) that I could stomp on. It just sort of grew from there, and I won easily.
I found I could avoid excommunication by warring on rebels and Muslims only. Other Catholics left me alone for the most part. A navy helped give me the option to sail down to Muslim lands for war, but the Almohads crushed their way up to my borders anyway, wiping out Spain, Aragon, France, and most of England, which gave me a nice highway of orange to pound on for most of the game. So the navy was mainly used to give me trade money.
I tried avoiding all conflict with Catholics, and found I just couldn't produce enough cash. That led me to the surgical strike tactic, and I began perusing the nearby provinces for a suitable candidate. Venice was both accessable, defendable, and profitable. It's also a strategic jewel in the fact that it gives me quick access to the eastern Mediterranian - in time I will be able to make land grabs in Muslim and Orthodox territories.
The worst part about my situation at the moment is the lack of knowledge abotu what is happening beyond my immediate area. I can only see the provinces bordering me, the area around the Italian peninsula, and Greece / Croatia / Serbia. I have no idea what I might face once I expand.
Hmm,
that's interesting. I played the HRE only once on normal (early, conquest mode). I got no rebellions or civil wars. I rushed Denmark in the first 3-4 years, got excommed for it, but still no rebellions. Then I built up Sweden, started trading (i.e played as the Danes really), took out Poland, then the Byz in Volhynia. Up to this point I had not been attacked by anyone, then Hungary struck and then Italy. By then I was strong enough to steamroll over them. The rest was easy.
Either I was very lucky, or did something right I was not aware of. The only thing that comes to mind is that I build a watchtower in EVERY border province I own immediately so I can see (checking on a saved game, my king indeed had great builder virtue). I also play on auto-tax (MTW 1.1) and before hitting End Year I religiously do the shift-key thing and make sure every single province is green by moving garrisons around, even if it means cancelling attacks on neighbors. And I pretty much spend all my money early on troops and buildings so that often after 5-10 years I am getting that Not enough funds message.
Again maybe it's luck, but I did not think the HRE was particularly hard. The French on the other hand....
afrit
{TL}Lord_Krutz
06-29-2004, 05:07
hmm...when i was the germans, i did fine. i think the best thing to do, is ally urself w/ every1 u have a border w/. then go and attack the danes, wipe them out and take their few provinces. this gives u extra provinces, vikings, and some water borders. idk, just an idea i used.
Yeah, but for some really weird problem (in mtw 1.0), the pope will almost always warn you if you attack them, even with more chance to warn you than if you attack french, or English.
as much as I know, the chance to warn you is depend by your and the target influence, the Danes, barly has influence at that time but the pope still love to warn you, if you asking me the Danes are bribing him.
The Pope warns you if you attack a Catholic faction with less than half the number of provinces you have, iirc. This means as the HRE, you have no safe options except expansion into the rebel provinces. That is why my one step at a time stretegy works well. Take a province and make sure you capture it in the first year, and make sure you either blitz the castle or ensure none survive to garrison the castle. Complete your attack, and sign a ceasefire within 2 years, otherwise you're in trouble. One important province each time. Make sure you don't violate the decade curfew, or ensure you're suitably prepared for a messy struggle for survival when you get excommunicated. Lots of reliable troops, don't try and tech up.
I've been playing for a while longer, and I've taken all of northern and central France, successfully completed the Holy Roman Empire GA - the Sicilians had taken Rome and Naples, and the Italians got excommunicated for some reason or other. I was able to build a couple of big stacks in Burgundy and march straight down the peninsula. I lose a lot of trade links when the Italians opened up with their nasty navy, but as they're now cornered on their Corsican hideaway, I don't have a lot to worry about for now. At this stage, I no longer give a damn about excommunication. No-one has the strength to stand up to me anymore. The eastern Europeans will provide a buffer against Islamic and Byzantine expansions while I string my navy to begin landing troops into Africa. I can then roll up through Egypt, and down through Hungary and take Byzantium from two fronts. That leaves the Spanish, Almohads, Polish and Russians as major threats.
The Almohads can be dealt with simply using leftovers from the Egyptian campaign, and a few fresh troops. Spain can be reached from both the north through what is left of the French, and from the south via the old Almohad empire. This nets me most of the map. The Russians and Polish can be slowly inched north-east and into poorer climates, then a token force sent to destroy the English and French-British provinces. Denmark can go next, spare garrisons can overwhelm the pitiful armies they keep in Denmark and Sweden. Poland and Russia will probably fight for the sparse terrain in the steppes, and I can step in and wipe out both. Mop up a few rebel provinces and the Papacy, and I'll have the entire map. Depressingly simple once the tricky setting up phase is over and done with. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif
Still not found a truly challenging faction to play as. Mod time, methinks.
Mightypeon
06-29-2004, 12:11
The goal to HRE viscotry is rapid offense.
If your try to build up: good luck, in my experience noone is goign to let you do so.
In the very first turn I usually hit Denemark.
Maybe I win maybe not.
However, it gets me a papal warning.
So my troops in tirolia, Burgnundy etc. are free to hit Milan and Venice simoultaniusly.
With some luck this will spark an Italian civil war.
Try to get some archers and use the monumentum to drive into tuscanny and Genua.
If you do i right the Tancredville guy wont even get into the european mainland.
Try to grant the Italian doge the good runner vice.
You are goign to caputre him anyway.
This should spark a Civil war, which should kill italy off.
Now, get a heir to march to the Danes and kill them to.
Push into sweden and enjoy the Vik units.
Try to get some P&P land with your Sweidsh army, and built up trade from there.
Bride or invade Corsica and the other Island, it gives you to naval bases in the Med.
Now go easyt and slaughter Hungary and Poland.
Try to be the holder of Kiev when the Horde arives, the other faction cant be relied to hold them up.
Eventually go for Konstantinoples.
This gives you 3 boardes on the east, 2 to the south 4 on the west and 0 on the north, you can now caputre france at your leisure.
If trhe Pope excomms you kill him off.
Dont do this to eften as his reappearnces get nasty.
{TL}Lord_Krutz
06-29-2004, 13:16
by what u guys say, the 2 ways of playing r totally opposite, yet both can lead to a victory. either u attack quick and take some good territories, or u go slow and build up, kinda depends on how u like playing i guess.
Quote[/b] ]The Pope warns you if you attack a Catholic faction with less than half the number of provinces you have
and iwas always sure its related to influence http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Quote[/b] ]by what u guys say, the 2 ways of playing r totally opposite, yet both can lead to a victory. either u attack quick and take some good territories, or u go slow and build up, kinda depends on how u like playing i guess.
the slow one seems reliable, about the fast one, it could be right too because my two german civil war, started after i stoped conquering.
Despot of the English
06-29-2004, 13:57
I've had many a fun time playing the Holy Roman Empire (always on GAs of course.) Never had any civil wars and, as the orignal poster did, I constructed lots of the 1 and 2 year buildings and also put the more loyal generals in charge of stacks.
My main target was the Italians as I wanted to unify the Holy Empire. I find it is best to do this with maximum force and charge into northern Italy before the Italians have any time to finish their pasta. However, before you do this I recommend being allied to the French as you don't want them attacking your western borders. Also alliances with the Poles and Hungarians are useful, though not essential. Oh yes, I forgot something else, before you start charging into Italy start training some Assassins.
Doing it this way proved a success for me as once the Italians started losing their provinces they had a civil war. Once Milan and Tuscany are taken I build up my forces in the latter for an assault on Rome and then eventually Naples. Leave the Papal States to the Pope as completely annihilating His Holiness will only bring him back in a rebellion.
Once you attack Rome the Pope hands you an immediate excommunication. This wasn't a problem for me because one of my assassins got him to reverse it. Unfortunately I was at with with the Papacy for what must have been 200 years and he forbade me from launching any crusades.
I disagree with the slow buildup. I knocked out Hungary as quickly as I could to grap iron rich provinces. I sent crusades eastward to grab easy to protect territory. Once secure and money started coming in I took the Danes and the rebels in Sweeden and Norway. I have all of the Iberian and Northern Africa, all of Italy's territory, and a large part of French provinces. NO civil wars yet and it is 1216. I believe the best way to avoid civil wars is through aggressive expansion.
Well, I went along with my plan. I raised massive armies and took out the Almohads, then swept east through Egypt, and from the homeland region through Hungary and into Greece. The Desert corps came up through the holy lands and took out Nicaea, then Constantinople fell easily. I shipped half of these armies off to Spain, where they easily overran the weakened Spanish, who had been fighting a draining war with the Almohads. The troops left in Constantinople mopped up the remainder of the Byzantine forces and started making inroads into the steppes. Troops from Franconia marched into Poland and destroyed the entire ruling family there, then started chewing through rebel provinces towards Novgorod. Frances leader died of an illness, with no heirs. I bribed the rebels he left behind, and took Britain with them. Denmark was another pushover - all they had were royal knights and spearmen. I took a few men-at-arms and feudal sergeants, and took the entire Scandinavian region with them. I built a port in Northumbria and shipped the troops there straight through the back door into Russia and beat them down over the course of a few years. The provinces in italy each pumped out a couple of units, and with these I took the Papal states without excommunication - the pope was too dead to do that.
I turned down the option to settle with a 60% victory. The only remaining non-German provinces are rebels, and there aren't many of those. Within the decade, I will have completed the conquest of Europe.
All thanks to a slow period at the start of the game in which I built up my strength and didn't try to fight wars I could hardly afford. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I'm no fan of blitz openings, the only time I ever open in such a way is to take out the Egyptians when playing as the Turks - I couldn't afford to fight the Byzantines without the money the Egyptian provinces bring in.
Quote[/b] ]I'm no fan of blitz openings, the only time I ever open in such a way is to take out the Egyptians when playing as the Turks - I couldn't afford to fight the Byzantines without the money the Egyptian provinces bring in.
thats right, I once tried to make a slow Turk game, the result was catastrophic, very small armies compare to both Byz and Egyptians, very low income, if at all, and a sure lose I did'nt want to see,
But if you blitz, you can with less then 10 years get Egypt, and then you quickly get huge amount of money, and it's not to get the Byz out of the game then.
Rushing is also necessary with the russians, st the begging, because that if you won't rush the golden horde will not only come with his massive amount of troops but also get rebel provinces and get their soldeirs too, so in short the only too that must blitz in the begging is the Russian and the Turks.
Almohads tend to get pretty intimidating when they blitz the Spanish, too.
An Almohad who owns the entire Iberian peninsula is a rich Almohad.
While not necessary, blitzing the Spanish saves the Almohad player a lot of grief dealing with the crusade-happy Spanish, and nets a lot of money and GA points.
Spartiate
06-30-2004, 18:45
Turkey are my favourite nation to play with.It is possible to throw the Byz off guard completely if you build one good sized army and invade north into Trebizond.After the battle if you own the province completely destroy EVERYTHING and move on towards Constantinople not even trying to hold on to Trebizond.Repeat this between Greece,Constantinople and Anatolia repeatedly and you not only weaken their man-power but you deny them income and build up your troop stats.The only time this strategy has gone wrong on me has been when loyalist rebellions have occurred in these provinces rather than a Byz army moving in to retake after i depart.If the Eygptians stay off my back long enough to let me wear the Byz into the ground they get it in the neck next. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
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