What is your stack made of?

[Ar7]

I usually divide my forces into armies. One army is one full stack that can/should handle everything on it's own.

Lately i have been having some minor problems with my build up, so i would like some help with it. What is your average army made of e.g. how many spears, swords, missiles, pole arms, cavalry, also which type of cavalry do you use, heavy, light etc. Detail is appreciated.

If it is possible then you could give your standard catholic and muslim armies, perhaps with variations depending on the era and/or faction.

I hope to get much more smarter and know all yuur secrets http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif But seriously, i just want to know how you guys play so i could maybe improve my gaming. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[HicRic]

Well, I can't claim to be any wizz at the game, and so I'm probably the last person you should go to for advice. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif But from my general experience so far (and from extensive STW games) this is what I'd say:

-Ranged support is important. As the English in High I find six units of Longbows very useful indeed. Obviously other factions can't get these so easily, but I'd still go with six units of decent archers. Armour upgrades are very useful here, but valour and weapons not so worth it.

-A nice stiff core of spearmen (4 X 100 men) is good. Creates a strong battle line that will repel cavalry and hold it's own against most other troop types. You might want to swap some of these for pikemen, depending on your preferance and factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif I'd probably go for armour upgrades on these, to help reinforce their "backbone" role. Weapons never hurt, though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

-A couple of units of high-attack swordsmen for fast and dealy flanking/rear attacks are always handy. Not only that, but swords are good against spears, too. Weapon upgrades for these are good to help them carve out the back ranks of enemies they've charged.

-I like to make the rest of the army up out of cavalry. Maybe a unit or two of heavy cavalry, and a unit or two of light to make up a good balance. You could swap some for horse archers, maybe (although you might want to remove foot archers in exchange for these) depending on if you like horse archers. I prefer heavy cavalry, with one unit of light to chase routers/horse archers/archers. Although this isn't always enough.

Most of all: play with your strengths If a faction specialises in something or you find you can use a unit well on the battlefield, take advantage of it.

[Kristaps]

peasants, loads of peasants cheap, efficient cannon fodder. :)

[Chimpyang]

I never use peasents, i stuff with spearmen and i tend to include a couple of javalins where i can.

[Doug-Thompson]

I'd rather attack a smaller enemy with a good stack than a larger enemy army with a perfect one.

That being said, I'm much more "cavalry prone" against the AI than anybody who plays multi-player, I'd bet.

Variances between armies are considerable. For Almohads, though, I like:

3x Almohad Urban Militia
3x Desert Archers
2x Muwahid
2x Murabitin
4x good HA (Mix of Faris/Berber camels, whichever's available.)
2x Heavy Cav (Ghulam and maybe a Bedouin Camel if expecting knights)

What, no Ghazis? Only later, when there's plenty of armor upgrades.

Here's the key point, though: I play huge unit size. My type of army is meant for killing early Crusades, which have a few armored troops and a lot of trash.

On regular size, an early Crusader army is almost all good armored troops Two spear units, a few feudal men-at-arms, a couple of crusader uber-knights and some archers would tear me to pieces.

On huge, those good armored troops are in just a few units surrounded by militia, fanatics and other garbage. My horse archers can shoot those to pieces and rout the trash before the main battle even begins. This invariably tears holes in the opposing enemy line. Then the HA attack the good troops from behind while the rest of my army engages in the front and flank. There are usually few survivors.

Same principle applies to the Byz. On normal size, their Jedi Kataphracts, Byz infantry and Trebizond Archers rule the battlefield. On huge, their line has to be filled out with Slav warriors and militia.

[Medieval Assassin]

It really depends who Im going to war against...

4 speartypes... I prefer not to use the normal spearman...
2 Archers, I don't use many archers
2 polearms to deal with those heavys
2 Heavy cav
2 Med cav
1-2 Light cav
2-3 Men-at-arms

[IrishMike]

I tend to use specialist stacks like 1 stack of archers and 1 stack of swords, then i can mix and match to suit what the battle is like and what the enemy brought to be slaughtered. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Well, my army composition depends on what faction I am playing.

If most Catholics:
I tend to go for sargeants, usually fuedal, like them better than Chivs. Then some archers, arbalests in the later ages. Not too much cav; either some knights or mounted sarges. Some heavy infantry if available like Halberds.

Italians:
Lots of Italian Light Infantry, Genoesian sailors/arbalests, knights

English:
Billmen Longbow Combo. Priceless.

Byzantines:
Core of Byz Infantry, maybe some Varangian guard, lots of cav

Hungarians:
Mostly cav, HA. Only bring infantry if assaulting a castle or fighting a lot of enemy spears.

Russians:
Ditto of Hungarians; do like Halberds.

Don't play the Muslim factions to say really what I like. Turks have huge variety, lots of archer/skirmisher types.


So that's what I use for each faction, generally. I don't really like ranged units that much, focus mainly on spears.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Good byzantine army i like using loyal general to keep the together, especially the Byzantines who have good heirs, the arny would include:

4 x Trebizond Archers

1 x Varangian guards

3 x Byzantine infantry

1 x Katapharact(Heir and general)

2 x medium cav(whether it be Byz cav or byz lancers)

2 x horse archers

1 x rus spearmen( mercenary unit i always try to get)

1 x bulgarian brigand

1 x Steppe or alan cavalry for screening

[pdoan8]

Just one stack for any situation, I will go for well balance with enough punch. Usually, my primary stack which leads by the highest command in the province would have:

3 spears
4-6 missiles of different type
4-5 sword/axe/polearm
3-4 Med/Hvy Cav

Before VI and the pre-battle screen, that's what I would bring in the first 16 units.

Too many variation to list. Usually, I build the army base on the following:

20-25% is pure defensive (spears)
20-25% is pure offensive
25-30% missiles
25-30% melee

For me, heavy and medium cav and a few other special units are considered as pure offensive. They are used in such way that they would do the killing without getting killed. Not getting killed is what the other 3 parts of the army should try to provide. The main role of pure offensive is to kill the enemy as much and as quick as possible.

Pure defensive should rely on their defensive power and number. The purpose is to tight up the enemy and may be able to force the enemy to fight with less efficiency or in such way that would favor me.

Missile should be used where they are untouchable. The coverage should be provided by melee troops and the combination of pure defensive/offensive. The purpose is to kill (prefer from a distance), reduce the enemy number before the actual fight and especially, demoralize the enemy

Melee is cover/counter/support troops. They can be used as defensive or offensive depending on the situation. The multi-purpose part of the army. The most important role should be counter the enemy pure offensive.

[Ar7]

Thank you for all of your answers so far, very good reading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Nelson]

If I had a standard army I’d talk about it. I don’t have one.

Lots of everything is always nice but I never really think in terms of specific unit mix in my armies. Once I know what the enemy has then I know if what I have nearby can beat him. My army may be 80% urban militia and 20% missile troops but I will strike without regard for my lack of other types if conditions are favorable. I prefer to have at least enough cavalry to pursue a routing foe however if I don’t have any I won’t delay an offensive waiting for it. An army like this has obviously has weaknesses but I will not allow perfection to become the enemy of what is good enough at the time.

One can’t expect to go very far with only peasants but a well handled force with a good commander can almost always prevail regardless of the unit mix. Maneuver and terrain exploitation can compensate for imbalances in the force structure. Developing a sense for what is “good enough” to win saves time and money. While it can be fun to create an optimal general purpose army it is not necessary and actually can retard the expansion of one’s empire if raising it leads to undo delay.

[ah_dut]

i like a lot of byz inf. I also like,
6 longbows
6 bills
2 CFK
2 light cav
good ol' english army
or, my Medmod italian crew http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
5 italian heavy inf
5 pavise sailors
2 contadina cav
3 caraccio guards
1 popolo cav (or other horse archer)

[Ulair]

For a generic Early Catholic army I go for a 4,4,4,4 split:
- 4 archers
- 4 good spears (say feudal sergeants)
- 4 good swords/shock (feudal MAA or militia sergeants)
- 4 cav (BG RKs, mounted sergeants, or hobilars if Eng/Fre)

My generic Early Muslims look very similar:
- 4 archers/desert archers
- 4 good spears (Nubians or Saracens)
- 4 shock (AUM are killers, or ghazis with some armour)
- 4 cav/camels (GBs, Armenian HC if available)

For Byzantium I tend not to use spears as much:
- 4 Treb archers
- couple regular spears
- 4 Byz infantry
- couple cav (BG Kats, say, or steppes)
- 4 HAs (I love these guys :-)

Armour upgrades where poss, of course.

If I change these patterns much it's usually to add archers; the AI, as noted before on the Org (by katank and others), can't handle massed archery very well, and I get a lot of mileage out of vanilla archers.

I've never really gone much beyond Early games so far (yet to start on High or Late), so there's a whole raft of stuff I've yet to learn http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Nelson @ June 29 2004,10:16)]Once I know what the enemy has then I know if what I have nearby can beat him. My army may be 80% urban militia and 20% missile troops but I will strike without regard for my lack of other types if conditions are favorable. ... An army like this has obviously has weaknesses but I will not allow perfection to become the enemy of what is good enough at the time.
Exactly.

"A good plan, violently executed now, beats a perfect plan next week." Gen. George Patton.

The only time I have "perfect armies" is when I've built up my defenses in Serbia and Greece, guarding Constantinople, while expanding somewhere else.

[Oleander Ardens]

Yeah, you may dominate and terrorize the AI with perfect stacks once you have a mighty empire... which you conquered with all but perfect ones. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers

OA

[pyhhricvictory]

Mine seem a bit different:

Catholics
6 Spears
5 missle (longbows or arbalests if available)
3 light cav
1 Heavy Cav (general)
1 Whatever is availible.

Muslim
2 spears
4 missle
8 light/medium cav and HA
2 swords/hybrids

I try and keep one or two of these armies near my borders. My usual home armies are whatever is available and cheap. With this breakdown, I have one or two good armies within 1-2 turns of any of my provinces to react if I am attacked or have a rebellion.

If I play as Novgorod or Russia, it is almost an entirely cav army built between HA, Steppes and Boyars or Heavy Cav. I use a couple of Rus Spears and some XBows as garrison troops.

[Blodrast]

it clearly depends.
For catholics:
- defensive army: 4-6 missiles, 2-3 cav (all kinds, purpose is mostly flanking, chasing routers, scaring away HA, and scaring away undefended missile foot troops), 5-6 spears, 2-3 swords, and if there's some good polearms around, 1 or maybe 2 units.
- offensive army: unless I'm fighting mongols or some muslim faction in the desert, I'll go with lots more heavy cav/knights, few sergeants and lots of swords. No more than 1 or 2 foot missile, however, HA are great (I'll be the attacker, so I have to skirmish and draw them out, don't I ?)
Against muslim, in the desert: no heavy cav. 2-3 HA/light cav against foot archers and their HA are great. The rest is swords and spears, and lots of foot missile troops. (40% spears, 40% foot missile, 20% swords; swords and spears ratios depend on how many Ghulams/Royal Ghulams and heavy cav they have).

Then again, for fun, I'm occasionally trying 16 CK stacks to see how fast the enemy can rout ;P

[Ar7]

I like the regular army idea from the RP point of view. I know that making new choices for your army with each new enemy is better, but i like to RP in MTW, it is more realistic and fun for me that way. So a standard standing army fits better for my playing style.

Seeing so many answers was very pleasant, thank you http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif After reading them through i have worked out a plan for myself that should work. Also taking into consideration ideas about making a new army for each enemy, my stack will variate depending on the opponent.

Great replies all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Daveybaby]

There are lots of different things which decide what makes up my armies, so it will tend to vary depending on who i am playing, who i am fighting, where i am, what era it is, etc.

However, the most important point is : offensive or defensive? This is a major factor. I tend to have completely different structures for an attacking army to a defending one.

Defensive army
* 2-4 artillery (catapaults, cannons). Useful to try to break up the initial assault a bit. If its going to be a looooong battle i rotate them out for more archers once they run out of ammo. If i'm really worried i'm going to lose i might try for the cheesy decapitation strike on the enemy general, but usually i try to avoid such naffness.
* LOTS of good spears (6-8 units), basically an impregnable wall for everyone else to hide behind.
* 4 units of archers (plus LOADS more in reserve - rotate the archers out as they exhaust their ammo)
* 2 good attacking units (swordsmen or axemen) to respond to any emergencies, i.e. to repel any breaks in the spear wall.
* 2-4 cavalry. If its a smallish battle i will use light cav to chase routers, if its going to be a long drawn out slog with lots of reinforcements i will tend to use fewer cav and more spears. Depending on who i am playing against I may additional use heavy cav instead of the sword/axemen above if for example, i am fighting a byzantine army full of katas.
* maybe swap units of xbow/arbs (ideally pavs) instead of the archers, if i'm fighting against armour. However they cant attack from behind a spear wall as easily, unless youre fighting in very hilly terrain.

Attacking army
2-4 pav arbs/xbows
2-4 spearmen to protect the arbs
4-6 heavy cav
4-6 sword/axemen/berzerkers

Again, the mix of cav to infantry would change depending on who i was fighting. If its a cav heavy army, i will tend to counter with more cav, and just try to out manoeuvre the enemy.

[mfberg]

Hungarian
2 Avar nobles
4+ szekely/steppe heavies
2+ spear/armored spear
round out with HA, swords, UM, MS, SlavJ, SlavW, Jobbagy, artillery.

I don't use archers as the Hungarians, but I do whenever I am anyone else.

mfberg

[Dhepee]

I usually try to have two stacks minimum for offense.

Stack One:

6 Longbowmen
4 Pikemen/Feudal Sargents
2 Sword Units
2 Cavalry Units

Once the Archers have softened up the enemy behind the protective screen of my pikes. I send in Cavalry and Swords from my second stack. As units begin to tire or lose men I swap them out for more cavalry so that my pursuit can take place.

For defense I usually try and have at least one full stack:

4 Longbowmen (if you concentrate your fire and break the center unit the enemy attack falls apart)
6 Pike /Feudal Sargents
4 Sword Units/Dismounted knights
I usually keep a couple of Feudal Knights or Mounted Sargents in reserve to swap out for archers so that I can pursue the attackers after their defeat.

[Imperial Buffoon]

I tend to keep my units in purpose stacks (anti-cav, spear, etc...) but in my current aragonese campaign I've tried to avoid choosing each time.
My basic army (although it changes a lot) is:
3 pav arbs
2 spears (chiv of feudal)
1 order foot
2 militia sarges/billmen/halbs.
2 CMAA
2 turcopoles
3 heavy cav (usually gen + Santiago + best other)
1 jinette

I had to Crusade quite a bit but managed to get enough order foots for all my armies in the eastern front.

If a long battle is ahead, I would at first leave the CMAA out and take archers which I refill once or twice.

[motorhead]

My method is very similar to Daveybaby. Obviously huge variations due to faction/era/offense-defense. I usually go with the mixed arms approach (missiles/spears/cav/axe-sword-polearm). Another big factor for determining my armies are 'what kind of borders?'.
- Defensive army with invasion borders giving me mountains and i'll go heavier on foot troops and maybe just 1-2 cav for some maneuver/rout-chaser ability.
- Offensive army with a mountain-into-plains border and i'll load up with more cav since the enemy will be defending on the plains.
- Offensive army, plains-plains, but lush, i'd think about stocking more infantry as lush tends to have more forest and infantry is the counter to the AI's "hide in woods from cav army" tactic.

Obviously many more combos, and obviously I don't try to fine-tune every single border army to perfection. I don't aim for identical stacks of armies.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (Ar7 @ June 28 2004,20:19)]
I always play Early GA so I'm usually defending.
I usually adjust the stack according to the neighbouring enemy. If I am playing a Catholic faction, I will try to take Antioch early in order to get Turcopoles, which I will then send west. For example, if you are Italy or Sicily and hold Venice, you will be surrounded by HRE. HRE has no troops against turcopoles, so Venice has 6 turcopoles in a stack with a few catapults and spears. Any HRE army will be slow so you can easily skirmish them away in an attack. The same is true for France, or for Hungary, which fields lots of javelins and jobbagy which make excellent archery targets.
Similarly, if your neighbours are Byz, you will have to worry about Byz Inf and Kats. So my stack is Turcopoles, mounted x-bows, Feudal sergeants, and catapults, with some swords, or javelins and Szekely if Hungarian.
If your neighbours are Turks, I find that lots of Genoese archers are good against their Horse Archers.

[Xiphias]

Personally I tend to pick up 15 of the local powerhouse infantry and a 6-9 star general.

A nine star boyar and valour 4 viking huscarls is nearly unstoppable, but I will get some more horsemen if the enemy has Horse Archers.

[Oleander Ardens]

Hm I might add that lately I use to have one to two stacks of various artillery units on a Island (the seas are usually always mine) which I use in case of need against large fortresses or to help defending troops...

[econ21]

I've started increasing the number of archers. I used to go for 3 archers behind 5 spears with 2 swords on the flanks. I'd have a general and then at least 2 more cavalry to chase routers/go for the flank.

Now, I think 5 archers is not excessive. They are lethal defending against the computer and useful in attacking (often prompting it to attack). In big battles, I bring a separate stack of archers to act as replacements as ammo dries up. You can get by with fewer arbalests as the ammo does not dry up and they are much more lethal than vanilla archers.

I should probably increase the ratio of swords to spears too. But those big cheap 100 blocks are just so reassuring.

For an early HRE army, I guess I'd aim for:

3 archers - defending behind spears or leading the attack as skirmishers
4 Feudal Sergeants - main line, to hold off cav and tie up enemy main body
4 Swabian swordsmen (or FMAA) - behind spears, will charge enemy spears and envelope flanks
2 mounted crossbows - initially acting as horse archers on the flanks, will target knights and run down routers
2 Feudal Knights if available - when enemy engaged will run down their archers and then hit rear of melee troops
1 general (royal knight) - generally stands safely behind centre to bolster morale but also acts as fire brigade in case of emergencies (rogue AI knights get through my lines etc).

[Servius]

4 Spear
4 Missile
5 Sword
2 Heavy Cav.
1 Cav General (preferably Light or Royal)

Sometimes one of those hvy cav are swapped for a 5th missile or spear. This works well for most Early European battles.

[lancer63]

I'm leaning towards less spears and more ranged units these days. While in earlier days I favored stacks with 2 ranged units and 4-5 spears to give protection from all possible sides, I realized the AI seldom uses lots of cavalry and 2, rarely 3, spear units would do the job on anchoring my forces.
My armies are way more flexible now, with emphasis on foot and horse ranged units. Maybe because these last few months waiting for RTW I've aquired a taste for eastern type warfare, either christian (caths and orthos) or muslim factions. Western factions are heavier and less agile in comparison. even the Elmo heads with their magnificent faris are no match in speed of attack to their muslim cousins or other eastern factions. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Mablung]

Copy the part about less spears for me

In multiplayer (high) i go: 2 CS, 4 Bills or Halbs, 2 CMAA, 4 HC(including general) and 4 missilers. I find it difficult to choose archers as catholics (apart from English). Battles tend to be shorter and the enemy engages faster. Do i go Genoese Sailors or Arbs etc. The fire rate against other missiles will do the damage but lack of AP hurts them against other targets.

Single Player all purpose army (standard - invade then defend)
RK general, 3 HC, 4 missiles, 4 polearms, 2 swords and either 2 more archers (if english tick this box http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) or 2 more cav.

Byz imo have the ultimate standard army in early.

4 Ktanks (including general), 4 VGs, 4 Treb archers, 2 Byz Cav (or SHC), and 2 BI. Might not be full possible numbers but good luck beating it.

[Drake]

Generally:

-2 missile units, the most advanced depending on period, at high gunmen (I can't spell arbalquiesers...see?)
-3 calvary units, 2 heavy like Feudal Knights/Royal Knights and one lighter type lke Mounted Sergents or Hobilars if I can
-2 units of anti-calvary forces, the more advanced the better like Feudal/Chivalric Sergs
-And to finish about 6 or so units of sometime to medium to heavy infantry, preferably Feudal/Chivalric Men-At-Arms or some appropriate unit i.e Vikings, JHI, Vangarians etc
-And on occasion, if any room, stick in the odd unit of horse archers, just to spice it up.

I find this gives the ability to adapt pretty quick to any type of enemy stack doing whatever they do. Then afterwards I beseige a castle I move in the following year what I've dubbed a siege train, a new stack full of siege gear and hevay hitting infantry like Halbrieders. This let's ya save the main force while sitll taking the castle more quickly if the wait time is like 5 years or so.

[Beirut]

I always play the English.

6 Longbow
6 Pikemen
4 Cavalry

Hit them as they move in, soak up a bit of damage when they make contact while missile-izing their general. Then swing the cavalry onto their flanks when their general is down in numbers. At the end, charge with Pikes to mop up.

[Marquis of Roland]

I am playing the English right now, and I must admit it's one of the easier armies to use. Longbows and billmen are too good. Hobilars in early is a big bonus.

I always send one stack to attack; once you break their main army its hard for their reinforcements to get into battle order before your heavy choppers get to them, so its pretty much a chopfest after that, as it was in real life.

Anyway, my stack is:
3 longbows
2-3 sergeants (or SAP if you have em)
3-4 CMAA
3-4 billmen
2-3 Chivalric knights
1-2 hobilars

I don't try to have too many longbows in my stack, personally I prefer to send in my melee infantry and cavalry to flank rather than just sit there and watch as my longbows methodically mow down their entire front line.

[katank]

use mtd. sarges which are better in every way. hobilars are only good for the first 20-30 years for rushing and establishing firm economic and military control over a nice portion of the map.

also, mass those longbows. provide just enough support to make sure your longbows don't get overrun.

remember, arrows don't cost money. hit double speed if you are bored. mow down enemy battle line = good

[gaijinalways]

Yes I would agree, killing the enemy from a distance where they then later rout or are killed more easily when you make contact because the enemy units are depleted makes life easier.

[Mablung]

Quote[/b] (Beirut @ July 06 2004,05:50)]I always play the English.

6 Longbow
6 Pikemen
4 Cavalry

Hit them as they move in, soak up a bit of damage when they make contact while missile-izing their general. Then swing the cavalry onto their flanks when their general is down in numbers. At the end, charge with Pikes to mop up.
Interesting, maybe sub out 2 pikes for Billmen for a more mobile anti-cav/anti-armour unit?

[katank]

yep. go heavier on bills and throw in an occasional CMAA.

[Marquis of Roland]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 07 2004,08:58)]remember, arrows don't cost money. hit double speed if you are bored. mow down enemy battle line = good
I know, Katank, just wanted to be entertained by a good brawl is all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

You are right on the mtd. sgt. I just use my hobilars because their valor is high.

[katank]

true. I also retrain and combine my veteran hobilars and keep them around as they are actually pretty strong when high valor.