Armenian Heavy Cavalry [Archive]

Game Over!!!

06-29-2004, 18:45

I have been playing my first HRE campaign: Early/Expert. Just started to come into contact with the Egyptians who have left the Elmo's alone but wiped out Turkey and pushed out the Byz from Constantinople.
Those AHC are nasty I'm trying to find another cavalry unit that can at least hold there own without getting wasted within 60 seconds. Does anybody have any ideas: I do NOT have VI and it's about 1210 or so. My mounted seargeants don't do very well and Fuedal Knights cost so much. Am I relegated to purchasing FK to counter AHC or is there another option? Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/handball.gif

Ar7

06-29-2004, 18:57

Why would you want to counter AHC with your own cavalry? Use spears to absorb their charge and then send armor piercing units in from the flanks, Militia Sergeants for example. Then if you truly want you can send in your cavalry in to charge from behind.

Also arbalests help to thin their ranks when the h2h contact has not been made yet, same goes to all missiles and especially those that that have armor piercing.

Hope this helps http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The_Emperor

06-29-2004, 18:58

Feudal knights might be your best bet.

But your right those Armenian Cavalry are very solid (especially when trained in Armenia with a master Horse Breeder +2 Valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif )

Knights are your only option, sure they may be expensive but its all you have heavy cav wise (unless you hire some Mercs).

Game Over!!!

06-29-2004, 19:26

Thanks for the fast replies. I know my Chiv sarges will keep the AHC at bay...I wanted to know how an all cavalry army would stack up against an Egyptian one. This is the first campaign I've played where the Egyptians are very strong. This is also the first time I've had to fight AHC and just wanted to know what cavalry, at my disposal, would stack up against them.
I want to push the Egyptians out of Constantinople since he has a 8 star general there. Playing expert and that many stars on an enemy general is going to be REAL fun. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif
I guess my FK are going to be my AHC repellant. Thanks again. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Blodrast

06-29-2004, 19:41

from personal experience, egyptians will usually have rabble troops, but a huge number of them.
If I were you, I'd try to get some FK just because they are better as shock troops, and it's rather easy to rout their rabble with them, which you can't say about mounted sergeants, for instance (note that Eggys have quite a few very good generals early, so the units won't rout _that_ easily; that's why I say you need FK).
However, I would suggest you do not use your FK vs AHC. Pin w/ spears, shoot with xbows/arbs (it's High already, you have xbows ). It will have a much better effect, and you won't lose those quite expensive FKs.

afrit

06-29-2004, 20:25

I have a lost a big battle in Rum once to turkish AHC (I was playing HRE).

My reply was hordes of spear units (feudal sarges mostly) supported by archers, or luring them into wooded areas or whittling his AHC down with mounted crossbows on open plains.

afrit

Ulair

06-29-2004, 21:09

If you want to fight 'em horse for horse then FKs should (just) work; RKs would be better (but £££ http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif ).

However, I agree with Ar7 and afrit: shoot 'em from behind a solid spear wall (feudal or chivalric sergeants, say, although Yas's Units Master reckons regular spears should stop 'em). Even regular archers will cause 'em some pain.

Playing muslims I love AHC: cheap as chips and pack a great punch. Elite, too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Mablung

06-30-2004, 10:44

I take it you have Switzerland? Tech it up for Swiss Halberdiers They'll make make mince meat out of any cavalry.

econ21

06-30-2004, 11:11

In MTW, matching like against like (HC against HC) is nearly always inefficient. I've found arbalests to be the best response to heavy cavalry - they even seem to have a range that exceeds the reaction distance of AI HC, so on the offensive, you can shoot down stationary AI HC with impunity. It's rather cheap, of course, but sometimes - eg against the Mongols, you need all the help you can get.

Back them up with Chivalric Sergeants and you will be fine. Halberdiers are even more lethal to HC.

I normally take only a couple of feudal knights for flank charges when the enemy is committed. Head to head, I find them rather unimpressive in my hands - as indeed is most of my HC (conversely, in the hands of the AI, HC is one of the few things I fear).

Magraev

06-30-2004, 12:22

Feudal knights are too expensive to be the backbone of any army. With the standard sizes (40 men for the knights) they cost 105 to maintain. That is twice as much as a unit of armenians (i think).

Go for Chivalric knights instead. They're clearly better and are cheaper too.

dessa14

06-30-2004, 14:58

THEY'RE NOT CHEAPER
they're like 100 to 200 florins more expensive then feudal knights.
thanks, dessa

ROCKHAMMER

06-30-2004, 15:20

I agree with the majority here. Engage the AHC with Spears backed up by Armor piercing missiles. Engage on the flanks with anti-armor melee troops and have a unit of cavalry move around behind and charge in. Even if the cavalry is not top quality by the time it charges the AHC will be ready to break from all the casualties that have been inflicted by the other troops. This is a perfect situation though. You still have to contend with the other units in the opposing army. Good Luck http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Ironside

06-30-2004, 16:10

Citera[/b] (dessa14 @ Juni 30 2004,08:58)]THEY'RE NOT CHEAPER
they're like 100 to 200 florins more expensive then feudal knights.
thanks, dessa
A chiv older than 13 turns is cheaper than a feudal knight.

Vanya

07-01-2004, 00:19

GAH

Vanya sez... to counter armenians, use archers/arbs cowering behind wall of spears.

Or, Vanya sez... use javeliners behind wall of spears.

For best results, use cannons to blast their heads off while they are still far, far away.

GAH

ichi

07-01-2004, 01:23

In addition to the ideas mentioned (Feudal Knights, missiles and spears, Halbs) I like to use cavalry archers - I think the HRE gets Mounted Xbows and there are usually lots of cav archers available as mercs.

I have to disagree that Feudals are too expensive. A well balanced army (IMHO) consists of a few spears, 4-5 swords, 3-4 missiles, and the rest heavy cav like Feudals or Chivs.

The Knights are especially important in armies commanded by low valor/low command generals. The Knights start with morale 8 which means they can fight without needing any additional morale boost from the General.

By using the heavy cav to flank the enemy you can start the enemy routing with fewer losses than you get by simply engaging head-on with spears. This reduces personnel losses (which also cost a lot to replace).

ichi

Magraev

07-01-2004, 07:13

Why would anyone prefer feudal knights over chivalric knights?

As Ironside said - after a few years they are cheaper and they are clearly better. We are in the high period, remember?

econ21

07-01-2004, 07:17

Magraev, I don't know about you but I find it hard to get chiv knights in 1210 - the building requirements are a little steep. Arbalests and chiv sergeants I can get at the start of the high period but I end up having to wait for knights. Maybe I'm not doing things right.

Magraev

07-01-2004, 08:15

ahem - I didn't realize it was that early... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

Still I sometimes make do with mounted sergeants until I can get the chivs. I simply find feudals a bit too expensive and not quite tough enough.

ah_dut

07-01-2004, 16:23

AHC at v2 are equal to chiv knights so treat them with respect, also, whoop some jinetes out of the bag http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

dessa14

07-01-2004, 19:30

Quote[/b] ]A chiv older than 13 turns is cheaper than a feudal knight

mine never last longer then 5 years.
thanks, dessa

Medieval Assassin

07-02-2004, 03:08

Quote[/b] (dessa14 @ June 30 2004,08:58)]Why would anyone prefer feudal knights over chivalric knights?

As Ironside said - after a few years they are cheaper and they are clearly better. We are in the high period, remember?
Feudals may not fight as good, but they will fight for longer

Chivs have 0 morale,
Feudals have 2 morale,

It's weird really, you would think the higher tech troop with more armour would be better,

If you want someone to hold the line, while you try to flank, I think the morale of the feudeals may be a better choice.

Magraev

07-02-2004, 07:04

I think you're talking about sergeants there - the knights have better morale than that.

edit: argh spelling sergeants...

econ21

07-02-2004, 10:32

On a side note, Chiv Sergeants (& Saracens) are classified as being low quality like vanilla spears but unlike Feudal Sergeants. This is one of the few "fudge factors" in the game, made to stop the leap in tech being too steep. Armour is a REALLY big deal in TW, so going from unarmoured Feudal Sergeants to mailed Chiv. Sergeants leads to a very big improvement in performance.

Conversely, IIRC, Chiv Knights and MAA are given a +1 attack fudge factor to make the upgrade from the already mailed feudal equivalents significant.

CA released an Excel file with the unit stats that made the logic behind the numbers pretty explicit - I'm impressed with the consistency and even the few fudge factors seem reasonable.

Ironside

07-02-2004, 15:22

Were is that file?
It sounds interesting.

econ21

07-02-2004, 15:47

I think the file is in the downloads section of the org. It is called crusaders_unit_prod11.xls. The last sheet showing the table of combat factors was the most interesting to me (I like to get under the hood and see where the numbers come from).

Belisarius

07-03-2004, 00:57

Use Kataphraktoi they´ll charge down anything that early on..... you were playing the Roman Empire right.....?

Oooh you mean that Holy Roman Empire? The Holy Roman Empire that was neither Roman or an Empire, nor was it particulary Holy.

How can you play anything but the true Roman Empire?

Thats like.... boring.

Unless I get my Kataphraktoi to play with, I will sit in a corner and hold my breath untill I do get them.

Now for some practical advice, changing your armies to suit better against particalry opponents is boooooring, you have to adapt your battlefield tactics instead.

So you go head to head with AHC, and you have Mounted sergeants, engage with one unit, hold one or two in reserve. Voluntarily rout the one you engage the AHC with before to much damage is done to your troops, and strike the AHC in the flanks while it is persuing your routing cavalry. Rally your troops and strike the AHC in the rear while its trying to form its ranks again against this new attack. 30 seconds later, 30 dead AHC and 10 routing AHC left. Sure you might lose some sergeants, but they are just commoners so not much of an loss right http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

RollingWave

07-05-2004, 20:10

Well try going for a mixed army of spear/archer/cav is usually the best bet in ANY situation not just against AHCs :P

Truth is you'll have a hard time beating the eggy with mass horse anyway thx to mass camels..... those things cost almost nothing for the eggies but can acturally beat a chiv knight 1 on 1 (not factoring moral) in the desert o_O ... but the chiv knight is like a gaziilion time more expensive not to meantion a gazzilion times higher tech....

same valor/armor wise though Fedual knights are still somewhat better than AHC except maybe for the charge....

katank

07-06-2004, 15:43

v2 AHC (available with master horse from Armenia) = Chiv Knight with +1 defense

RollingWave

07-07-2004, 20:20

YOu forgot to meantion they are also easily acquired by mid early age and cost less than half of CK.... gaming balance at it's best :P AHC is one of those steal units in this game... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

katank

07-07-2004, 21:43

they are not even mid early game.

fort 4 + farm 2 + horse 2, 4, 6, 8 = 26 years to them.

for turks, you get them in 1113 if you tech straight for them.

that's insane.

Oleander Ardens

07-08-2004, 15:13

or 28 years with the Byz if all goes well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

OA

ah_dut

07-08-2004, 16:54

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 08 2004,09:13)]or 28 years with the Byz if all goes well http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

OA
old trick m8. the only way to beat AHC in my book is the force http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif read jedi Katanks or other BG's. Seriously a well rounded army should beat any other