Camal

[Medieval Assassin]

I know camals have a clear edge one cav. I think its +4Defence +4 attack against horses, and there is a moral penelty??? I think it's 2 right? The horse suffer -2 morale?

Does this only apply to enemy horses, or if I have camals in a melee, and then I send in some horses to back them up, do they also recive the morale penelty? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif

[jones21]

i think its just enemy troops ...isnt it the game for gunpowdered units or napthas

[motorhead]

from the official strat guide:

Quote[/b] ]Troop Type Factors
SUBTRACT 4 if the striker is afraid of the target

The only case where this applies is when horse units fight camel units. Horses fear camels

ADD 2 if the target is afraid of the striker (same as above)

Terrain Factors
ADD 1 if the striker is camel-mounted and fighting in a sandy desert
SUBTRACT 1 if the striker is camel-mounted and fighting in lush or temperate terrain


So, camel vs horse effectively gives +4 Def, +2 Attack for camels. Camels also get +1 Attack in sandy desert, -1 Attack in lush/temperate.

edit: there's no direct morale penalty, but since camels stand a good chance of whipping most cav, the cav suffer the 'losing battle' penalty, up to -8 depending on how badly things are going. since your cav aren't striking or being struck by your own camels, they suffer no penalties.

[Doug-Thompson]

motorhead finished that one off. Here's a footnote.

Camels are slower than horses, and low-valor camels have lousy morale.

Therefore, if the horse units can ever get the upper hand, even slightly, the camels are in great danger. If camels rout, the horses will pursue and slaughter them.

Also, camels are very vulnerable to missiles. Camels are big, poorly armored and slow for cavalry.

If you use camels, morale upgrades are vital and high-valor camels are priceless.

If you are fighting camels, it is vital to attack their morale as much as the camels themselves. Arrow fire hurts morale and is very effective against camels too, so it's a double-whammy.

I fight with camels much more than against them, but I'd seriously consider routing a horse unit that has a clear line of retreat. Horses are too fast for camels to pursue, so there's an excellent chance of a clean break. Then the horse unit could recover its morale at a safe distance. Consider the effect of the morale hit on the rest of the army before pulling that stunt, though.

I'd also consider using fanatics you get with Crusades as an anti-camel unit. Although fanatics lose in fighting camels 1-on-1, they are fast for infantry. They could really help out a horse unit that's caught in melee with camels.

[RollingWave]

Yes always try to get moral upgrades for camels or at least lead them with high lvl generals.... they are basically peasents on camels that can REALLy devastate calvaries...

If you want to use them outside of desert (dispite the penalty..... they still are incrediablly cost effective against cavs anyway outside of desert so if ur on a short budge they are stil incrediablly worthwhile to take)try to get some armor upgrades on them too.... they do acceptablly well vs most non anti cav infantry too... and can beat most archers..... not bad if you consider they cost(iirc) less than a freaken peasent if ur the eggies.... surely they are much much better than peasents except maybe against spears :P

Berbers are ok too.... they aren't much of a cav archer but being a archer that can beat most light cav is quiet a bonus consider that's what most ppl will try to use against archers.... though imho only the onces from morraco are worth it though

[katank]

camel spam means super cost effective

anyone play kekvitmod though? african heavy camels are the way to go. 6 charge, 5 attack, 30 morale. armor em up and let em rip

[Medieval Assassin]

Yes I have played, I never knew they had 30 morale I know they are like a super suicide crazy ghazi type unit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 06 2004,09:46)]camel spam means super cost effective.
Especially if you're playing Egyptians. As RollingWave points out, they're dirt cheap.

They also tend to produce their share of decent governors and generals.

[katank]

that's true. a camel general isn't bad either.

I usually end with at least two good camel generals as eggy since I keep building the camels in addition to the starting one.

it's funny how the AI occasionally tries to cav rush my general when I use him as bait.

My flanker/ambushers killed them but I'm surprised at the number of knights my general takes down himself.

also, 125 a pop, that's just pure sweetness. BTW, how much do they cost for eggy?

[Doug-Thompson]

I'll have to check when I get home.

If memory serves, huge units of 80 cost 188 for the Egyptians, so 94 for a regular unit of 40. That works out to a 25 percent discount.

[katank]

94 florins? that's a real steal for something that is mounted and moves. just making sure as sometimes it's not exactly 25% discount.

[Doug-Thompson]

Camels stink -- literally, and in game play. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-clown.gif

However, all other fort-level units (except Vikings) stink, too.

All things are relative. Camels have their uses throughout the game, but their best time comes in the starting moves.

Camels beat peasants (what doesn't?), Slav infantry and urban militia toe-to-toe (or toe to hoof, I guess.) I believe camels benefit from the "losing to cavalry" morale effect in those battles.

Camels have to get a flank, at least, to do any good against vanilla spears. Even then, they really need some support. Once the spears start losing, they'll rout and the massacre begins.

Trebizond Archers with a bonus are more than camels can handle, and so are kataphracts -- one on one. However, Jedi kataphacts have two weaknesses.

1. They can't be everywhere at once, either strategically or tactically.
2. They're the only thing on a horse that can't catch a camel.

It is only my impression, but I think kats get tired faster than camels. Therefore, camel effective speed is faster even though the nominal speed of the two is equal.

Nobody ever won a battle by running away, but I do think its safe to say that kats can't force a battle on the camels.

Hire some mercenaries, build a lot of desert archers and, once the kats are committed, pounce on them with a two-to-one-or-greater number of camel units. Even if you lose, you should greatly thin the ranks of the "killer kats."

[Blodrast]

er, what's a "camal" anyway ? are they like the desert variety of flaming pigs ? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

Checked it out. Huge units cost 188 for Egyptians, 94 normal.

[katank]

the key word is spam.

you don't care if you throw away 3 units of camels if you destroy 1 katank.

you can pump camels from multiple provinces with only a fort and they are cheaper.

you may lose the battle but you'll win the war. you may be defeated by the Byz the first few times in battle but you'll have decimated their elite so far that they can't defend themselves further

[RollingWave]

Just as a comparson example running a unit test wiht unit master programe....

Camel = 125 gold .... spear = 150 gold
Not factor in moral and considering equal valor/armor... in the desert a bedoiun will kill a early ghulam bodyguard unit losing only about half their group... while a vanillia spear will lose (barely) with 4 ranks..... even outside fo desert 1v1 bedioun still wins though with siginifcantly higher casualty... (eggy camel cost less than 100 gold... making them the cheapest non peasent unit in the whole freaken game)

For their cost... they stand up to almost everything that isn't pointing a spear at them reasonablly well espically in the desert they are quiet cost effective against all the sword arm type infantry let's not even start on the fatique factor here....

A example is going up against byznatian infantry head on in the desert bedouins will lose but the byz infantry will be very badly damaged too... if the byz infantry is 1 fatique lvl lower than the bedoins (extremely likely) they will lose...... let's not forget that bedoiuns move faster and cost only half.........

In conclusion.... the only thing they can't fight cost effectively is spears/polearms.... everything else they are either ridiculasly good or pretty decent against cost wise......

Final comparason... dreaded v1 Chivalric knights of toulous vs a vanilla bedioun in desert.... ck wins but takes 50% damage... thus 2 groups will slaughter the CK not to meantion the Ck will usually be horriblly more fatiqued thus losing even more horriblly.... (ck cost 625 gold and has a very long string of reqs.... bediouns requier a FREAKEN FORT OMFG)

Bediouns are the most overall cost effective unit along with vikings ......

BTW... is there anyway to get v1 camels from master lvl production buildings????? or is upgrading their moral/armor all u can do?

[katank]

I don't think you can upgrade the valor.

they require a fort and I don't think fortresses give valor bonuses.

ribat is always good for anything and add some armor esp. if walkng out of the desert.