The West Needs help against horse archers

[Inuyasha12]

I've been playing as the Venetians(bkb mod), they are just like the italians. Anyways i have no answer to the turkish faris. They are very fast and are great at hand to hand combat. My knights have trouble catching up to them and my infantry is getting showered by arrows. By the time i get to the turkish infantry they are weak and low on morale. Some times the turks even have jannisary bows in that case my infatry is hit with arrows from all sides and is exausted. I've tried pavise crossbowmen but the faris simply run from them or flank them and chew them up. And mounted crossbowmen fire too slowly, and can't shoot in a arch.I've tried shieldind the crossbowmen with italian infantry but then i can never catch up to the faris. And my knights are tired of chasing the faris around.

The west needs help against this menace

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[eds]

Any foot ranged unit(s) can shield your army from horse archers. Keep some cavalry ready to intercept any Faris that charge in and you should be fine. If you are attacking, lead with ranged units until you're close enough to start showering his army (and Faris) with them while the rest of your army passes through to engage hand to hand. That distance where you are exposed without the cover of your own ranged units should be small. You could either run the short distance or just move your foot ranged units closer.

[foop]

I haven't played the BKB mod, but I'm currently playing an English campaign (on normal, I'm not very good yet). The Turks managed to replace the HRE and most of the Poles and Russians fairly early on, so they're my main target at the moment. I've found that a slowly advancing wall of pav arbs backed by Mercian billmen is a good match for most of the units the Turks can throw at me. If they try to attack the arbs, the billmen can massacre them reasonably effectively. I tend to have a wall of chivalric sargeants around to absorb some of the missile fire too. If the faris run away, I just advance my arb wall towards the enemy. It doesn't always work, but most of the time I can pin them down and force them to do something rash. The AI tries to keep the high ground, but it doesn't seem to be too difficult to trick it away from safety.

Of course, I'm not sure how that would work on higher difficulty or in a modded game. And I don't know what sort of units the Venetians could use with this strategy. But hope this helps anyway.

[Spartiate]

1 unit of ordinary run of the mill archers directly behind the pavise Arbelasters.Go for spearmen with all the upgrades instead of italian light infantry(much faster) on the flanks but backed up by the afore mentioned Italian infantry(will need them in the end anyway) and a few units of light cav way off on the flanks.I like to advance the whole infantry mix slowly and steadily,the Faris cannot now flank me and i eventually get my cav in behind them and force them on to my advancing foot soldiers and destroy them before the main armies clash.Works well against the AI but not so well against a human opponent.
Damnit..............typed all that then realised you were talking about BKB mod.Havent played that yet but try the tactic anyway

[Inuyasha12]

The venetians have only one new unit, tuscan cavalry. But i will try that. I will make a line of italian cavalry and put archers in their front. And screen them with tuscan cavalry with is fast. That. i think will keep those pesky faris away.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Hmmm, are the seljuk horse archers still in the turk armies? Christ the troubles i have had with them. If i were you i would open your inns and get some good light cav in your armies because the turks can be tricky buggers.

[ah_dut]

gha i second that get some hardcore merc light cav.
OT:@bkb, when is your mod coming out in a self installer? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif just asking

[Blodrast]

and by the way, you can use some halberdiers as bait instead of chivalric sergeants. I believe they would get fewer casualties & they are cheaper too. Let'em waste their arrows on them. Of course, loose formation can't hurt either.

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

Its out mate, check my thread in the engineers guild for details.

[Inuyasha12]

Yeah i dread the faris but the seljuk are worse. Luckily the turks haven't used them that much. I have been playing with the crusader states and also having trouble in the desert. The crusaders have great knights but they are being exausted by the desert. What units should i use in the desert?
Exept for turcupoles i don't have a real good light unit roster.
The egyptians are murdering me in the sand.
i suck in the desert, and my knights are of no use there
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[The Blind King of Bohemia]

ALthough this probably should be in the Super Mod thread, I may add Inuyasha a Syrian-Christian Archer type unit, which can hold its own against stronger types. Furthermore, they can be in my Eastern Promise mod also. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Inuyasha12]

You mean like a armoured turcopole?
That's great.
Turcopoles rock but against heavy units they get cut to pieces http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[The Blind King of Bohemia]

No sorry I meant a dismounted unit.

[katank]

look in the HA threads. big section on how to counter them.

1. foot missile with protection. even horsies can't outrun arrows and protection ike spear wall behind would protect them from melee, forcing a missile duel which you'll surely win.

2. use light cav or your own HAs set to melee and chase them off the map.

3. envelopment. by circling preferably your cav around the flanks far enough away that the HAs dont' feel threatened by them. Once behind them, charge the cav towards your own lines, causing HAs to skirmish into your main battle line where the mailed fist closes and little mangled pieces of horse flesh drip out http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Crash]

Quote[/b] (foop @ July 02 2004,10:55)] I've found that a slowly advancing wall of pav arbs backed by Mercian billmen is a good match for most of the units the Turks can throw at me. Of course, I'm not sure how that would work on higher difficulty or in a modded game. And I don't know what sort of units the Venetians could use with this strategy. But hope this helps anyway.
I agree. In my current English campaign, I've done a lot of fighting against the Egyptians and Mongols, including battles where they had loads of horse archer types, and I've had none.

The key is to maneuver your infantry and arbalesters and longbows methodically. Stretch out your lines if you have to, but keep some good calvary in reserve for counterattacks. You will eventually back them up against the edge of the map or some where the have to fight or retreat.

[Inuyasha12]

Okay BKB, more like a turcoman foot soldier mixed with a longbowman.
(don't you just love my analogies http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Doug-Thompson]

Whether I'm fighting with horse archers or against them, I turn the time limit off. They demand a lot of patience either way.

The trouble with arbalesters, pavanise x-bows, etc., is slow rate of fire. A human controlling HA has time to move them out of the way before the second volley.

Like others, I recommend close cooperation between anti-cavalry infantry and archers. Also, consider using archers who have some melee power. You need archers who can survive until help comes if they get stranded somewhere.

I'm not sure what units you have in a mod.

[Papewaio]

I always have time limit on, playing on expert.

I do not have any problems with horse archers.

I normally deploy a well rounded army. HA are gnats, ignore them and concentrate on the real threats.

When you do go for them use your units like sheep dogs/corner backs... don't aim directly at them, drift to the side and block them from as much territory as possible. Even two spear units can cut off and catch a fast HA given the right manuveurs.

[Lord Rom]

Quote[/b] ]When you do go for them use your units like sheep dogs/corner backs... don't aim directly at them, drift to the side and block them from as much territory as possible. Even two spear units can cut off and catch a fast HA given the right manuveurs.

Quite right Papewaio. I commonly use wedges of cav that spring into a single line steel trap once the angle of retreat has been cutoff.

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (The Blind King of Bohemia @ July 02 2004,13:54)]Its out mate, check my thread in the engineers guild for details.
thx will get it soon

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 02 2004,17:30)]Whether I'm fighting with horse archers or against them, I turn the time limit off. They demand a lot of patience either way.

The trouble with arbalesters, pavanise x-bows, etc., is slow rate of fire. A human controlling HA has time to move them out of the way before the second volley.

Like others, I recommend close cooperation between anti-cavalry infantry and archers. Also, consider using archers who have some melee power. You need archers who can survive until help comes if they get stranded somewhere.

I'm not sure what units you have in a mod.
i use vanilla archers proteted well. They can pound the hell out of a unit of boyars quite easily.