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Stefan the Berserker
07-03-2004, 11:05
Microsoft Word - File (http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/sd/Germanic%20Units.zip)

I uploaded my Unit information, you can get it via this link containing also the Pictures. The Pure-Text comes here:


Zitat[/b] ]Germanic Units
Lancemen



--- Formed by the Frydmen of Germania, who have learned to life with the icy Winters and short Summers of their Lands, these Lancemen are known for their Sacrifice on their Masters. Julius Caesar discribes them as disciplined, hard-nosed Warriors fighting in a dense formation he called a "Phalanx". Their mantall Shields, packed one at the other, indeed supplied an almost perfect Protection while their Lances belonged to the deadlyest in the Ancient World. ---

The Germanic Lancers are similar to Hellenistic Hopilites and later English Fyrds (while the Fyrds are their decendants).

“After they had overthrown the Roman cavalry with a densely packed formation, they formed their shield wall (phalanx) and attacked our first battle line from below” (Caes. BG I, 24,2: »REIECTO NOSTRO EQUITATU, PHALANGE FACTA SUB PRIMAM NOSTRAM ACIEM SUCCESSERUNT.«).
Shortly afterwards “they quickly formed their shield wall as they are used to, and repelled our sword attack” (Caes. BG I, 52,4: »AT GERMANI CELERITER EX CONSUETUDINE SUA PHALANGE FACTA IMPETUS GLADIORUM
EXCEPERUNT.«).

Caesar here discribes a Battle he had with them under Ariovistus. As you can see Jules Caesar definatly said Phalange / Phalanx and he intends that this "Phalanx" was trained, throughout he says the Shield wall was formed "quickly".

the dreadful Germanic lances that “inflict wounds from a formidable distance” (Tac. ann. I, 64: »HASTAE INGENTES AD VULNERA FACIENDA QUAMVIS PROCUL«) Germanic graves have revealed specimens of a length of 41-45 cm with lateral cut-outs If this type of thrusting lance is mentioned they are called “enormous” or “over-long lances” (Tac. ann II, 14: »ENORMIS HASTAS«; ann. II, 21: »PRAELONGAS HASTAS«). These expressions may refer to the length of the shaft and respectively to the length and width of the point. In the battle at the Angrivarian Wall (16 AD) the Imperial Guard was not able to storm the Wall because they received severe thrusts from above, and Germanicus Caesar had to withdraw them (cf. Tac. ann. II, 20: »QUIS INPUGNANDUS AGGER, UT SI MURUM
SUCCEDERENT, GRAVIBUS SUPERNE ICTIBUS CONFLICTABANTUR. SENSIT DUX INPAREM COMMINUS PUGNAM…«). The weapons that inflicted those blows from above may well have been such “enormous” and “over-long” lances.

The Germanic Lance Tacitus mentioned is a deadly Weapon with long (about 41-45 Cm) Spearheads, making the Warriors able to break almost any Armor from the Distance.


Abilities:

Bonus against armored Enemys
Disciplined
Large Shield
Bonus against Cavallary
Good Morale
Good Charge

Skirmishers (Light Arms)



„As long distance weapons Germanics used javelins. Each warrior carried several of them, and threw them “extremely far” as Tacitus remarks full of admiration (Tac. Germ. 6). The “framea” that Tacitus describes (Germ. 6: “They carry spears that they call frameas, with a short and narrow, but very sharp point, very practical for use. As circumstances require they fight with the same weapon at short or long range” – »HASTAS VEL IPSORUM VOCABULO FRAMEAS GERUNT ANGUSTO ET BREVI FERRO, SED ITA ACRI ET AD USUM HABILI, UT EODEM
TELO, PROUT RATIO POSCIT, VEL COMMINUS VEL EMINUS PUGNENT.«), was used as a throwing spear as well. It was about 6 foot long, had a rather small iron head, and could be used as a throwing or thrusting weapon. Some javelins had barbed heads as grave deposits reveal.“

Along with the Framea, lightly armed germanics also used the „Sasha“ or „Sax“-Sword which Tacitus doesn’t know (but is prooved through Artifact-Founds). The Sax was a thin blade which was very sharp and easy to produce, the negative fact is that it could break more easy if a Combatant tried to block the enemy’s Strike. For simplification, just see the Pictures an you will recognise that the Sax is a light but fine Melee-Weapon being similar to modern Sabres.

Two Pictures of the Sax::




Abilities:

Fast
Small Shield
Good Morale

-> -> ->
For both, the Lancemen and the Skirmishers it should be regarded that the Suevian.-Knot was the mostly common male Hairsyle in Germania. Their Heads should be designed that way, that this typical Hairstyle appears to additionally display their origins.

Comitati Lancemen / Comitati Swordsmen



Aslike Knights for medieval Armies, the Comitati were the Heart of the Army in ancient Germania. The Comitati belived or better claimed to be decendants of the God Heimdall / Mannus, mainly to justify their Aristocrathic Status. They see themselves to be superior to their Enemys, they even thought to be superior to any other Human due to their divine Source. Maybe they were wrong, but this way of thinking made them become dangerous and terrible Warriors

„...whom they call soldurii, the conditions of whose companionship are that they share all the conveniences of life with those to whose friendship they have devoted themselves and if anything violent happen to them, either they endure the same destiny together, or commit suicide: up to now, in the memory of men, there has never been found anyone who refused to die, upon the death of one to whose friendship he had so devoted himself,..“ – Caesar about gaulish Soldurii
„They transact no public or private business without being armed. It is not, however, usual for anyone to wear arms till the state has recognized his power to use them. Then in the presence of the council one of the chiefs, or the young man's father, or some kinsman, equips him with a shield and a spear. These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested. Up to this time he is regarded as a member of a household, afterwards as a member of the commonwealth. Very noble birth or great services rendered by the father secure for lads the rank of a chief; such lads attach themselves to men of mature strength and of long approved valour. It is no shame to be seen among a chief's followers. Even in his escort there are gradations of rank, dependent on the choice of the man to whom they are attached. These followers vie keenly with each others as to who shall rank first with his chiefs, the chiefs as to who shall have the most numerous and the bravest followers. It is an honour as well as a source of strength to be thus always surrounded by a large body of picked youths; it is an ornament in peace and a defence in war. And not only in his own tribe but also in the neighboring states it is the renown and glory of a chief to be distinguished for the number and valour of his followers, for such a man is courted by embassies, is honoured with presents, and the very prestige of his name ofen settles a war.“ - Tacitus
As Tacitus refers here the Germanics had a very Warlike Aritocrathy, those „Fellows“ (Comitati in Latin) where rich Landowners and/or People who have been regarded for their Noble behaviour. Aslike Knights have been in the Middleages, also Comitati within the germanics had one problem: Their personal thirst for Honor and „Glamour“, making them undisciplined. The Soldurii and the Comitati were mostly identical, expecially in Belgicae and Raetia were Germanics and Gauls lived together the romans didn’t make any diffrence between them.
As Tacitus said: „These arms are what the "toga" is with us, the first honour with which youth is invested.“. Their Weapons and Armor had become a Symbol for their Aristocrathic-Status, expecially their Swords and the animal-shaped Helmets (see Pictures).



I combined all neccessary Details to one Picture:


Much stronger as on the previous Pictures (Drawings from a history-Book, and two aritifacts) this Picture provides a good Image of a single Comitatus. Wearing a beautiful Shirt with Ornaments, a decorated Helmet (Horsehead in this Case), a Cloak, Armor, Belts with golden Clasps, a Woolthrowser with Letherstrings (see his Knee), a good sword and a Rune-decorated Shield. A very helpful Case is that the Helmet for the Character Theoden in the Movie „Lord of the Rings“ was designed after the Image of the germanic’s Animal-Helmet, the two Pictures below show this Helmet and contain urls to larger Images on the Internet. The third Picture is a Frameshot from the Movie “Die Nibelungen” showing Queen Brunhild of Isenland, she also wears a decorated Helmet in the Germanic Fashion (Snake formed creature in place where the LoTR-Helmet has a Horsehead).

As you’ll certainly have recognised on the Pictures the Comitati were no pure Swordsmen, identical to Knights or Samurai they fought in various organisation Types. Through there’s no place for them all they must be seperated to their main groups: Spearmen, Swordsmen and Cavallary. Making a Comitati Cavallary wasn’t sensible for Gameplay, through the germanics already have the Gastiz as their heavy Cavallary.

So I would suggest to make two Units: Comitati Lancemen and Comitati Swordsmen. While the Lancemen should be displayed as an improoved Version of the „normal“ Lancemen, with Comitati-charcteristics (similar to armored Spearmen compared to normal Spearmen in Viking Inavasions). The Swordsmen on the other Side are needed to form a counterpart against the roman Legionaires, so they need to be an Elite of Warriors.

Abilities (Spearmen) Abilities (Swordsmen

Armored Armored
Good Defense Good Charge
Good Morale Good Defense
Good Melee Perfect Morale
Large Shield Perfect Melee
Bonus against Cavallary Shield

Gastiz Cavallary



Somehow many Comitati followed „invitations“ of Warlords to fight for a reward and became Mercenaries. Called „Gastiz“, which ment Guest these Men spend most of their Lifetime in Warfare. The many succsessful Battles brought them a high social status and wellfare, resulting that they formed the most expensive but also most efficent germanic Trooptype. In the Society they were seen as the perfected Comitati, sacrificing their whole life in Combat after Tiwaz’s Prayers (In negative Effect this made them very arrogant and difficult to command). The Romans recognised the Power of the Gastiz and „invited“ them byself many times: Jules Caesar hired these Cavallary to fight in Alesia and the famous Arminius was the commander of Gastiz in roman Service. This caused that they used strongly romanised Arms and Armor, diffrently to the two lower Comitati Types.

They need no further discription, through they chare most Charcteristics with the two other Comitati types.

Abilities

Armored
Perfect Charge
Good Defense
Perfect Morale
Good Melee
Uncontrolled

For the case of the Units already created, I can confirm Barbarian Archers, Barbarian Axemen and Barbarian Cavallary for beeing Historic in sight of the Germanics. Those Units should be kept in.

Germanic Symbol

As fort he Discussion on a Symbol fort he germanic Faction in the Game, I would prefer something based on this Banner. This is the Coat of Arms used by the medieval Noblemen of Throta: A Raven, the animal of Wodèn, is keeping a Ring in his mounth. A Ring symbolises Freedom in the Germanic Culture, the Scene is ment to express that Wodèn/War is the source of Freedom in Opinion of the Germanics.
Additional Information and Pictures
Additionally I include extra pictures and informations which could be interesting for creating Things in RTW, belonging to Germanics and other northern Barbarians.

Hagen of Tronia from the Movie “Die Nibelungen”

The Völospà, a Song related to the Wodèn-Cult

Germanics used to sing heroic poems like this one, when they went off for Combat. Maybe this piece can be used by creating Music for the Barbarians.

Glosary of Asatru-Gods

The Names of Asatru-Gods, first with their scandinavian (Viking) Name and secondly with their german (Roman-Era) Name:

Odin / Wotan (English = Wodèn) – God Chieftan / God of Death
Thor / Donar – God of Thunder
Baldr / Phol – God of Moon
Freyer / Fro – God of Love
Tyr / Ziu (English = Tiwaz) – God of War
Heimdall / Mannus – Divine Protector
Hoedr / Hother – God of Darkness
Forseti / Fosite – God of Justice
Frigg / Fria – Godess of Earth
Freyja / Frouva – Godess of Love
Sol / Sunna – Sungodess

The Text needs its pictures and Word-Doc Format to look good.

Nowake
07-03-2004, 11:18
Very good work.


Still, you may want to try and organise a bit; the archeological information should not enter in the unit tree, as tempting as it is (I could hardly help myself to include some interesting tidbits at the dacians, but I did it for the sake of the description). I recommend you use Psycho's style, as myself, it allows for a better read and understanding for the majority. Of course, it is up to you. Plus, wouldn't you want to include more than 10 units, even if you count the ones released by CA?

DemonArchangel
07-03-2004, 15:02
i'll be editing the spelling on that one... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Hagbard la Suede
07-04-2004, 15:15
Just thought you'd like to see the scandinavian spellings on the gods name,not the english ones

Oden
Tor
Balder
Frej
Tyr
Heimdall
Hoedr?God of darkness?Only thing relates to may be Hel
Forseti
Frigg
Freja
Sol[Not really a goddess]

I know this is sorta besserwisser shitty like,but I couldnt contain myself :P

AvramL
07-06-2004, 21:23
Those gods and their spellings come from old Norse, many centuries later than RTW. In the period covered by RTW, Woden had yet to emerge as the chief Germanic god and Tiwaz as well as the earth mother (possibly Erce in old english) were worshipped above all others by some tribes. As a whole, the Germanic tribes, despite having become overlords of some Celtic lands, were altogether poorer than their neighbours because much of Germania still needed to be cleared of forest. At this time, politics still revolved around the clan system and the warlords of the migration period would not appear for some time.
Having said that, ofcourse the most important warriors in German hosts were always the chieftain's hearth warriors (or comitatus as has been mentioned) while the rest of the free men called to arms provided weight behind them.

I am a bit disapointed that the Britons are getting the stag for their symbol, as the stag was associated with Arminius, I would have preferred it to be the Germanic faction symbol.

Anyway just thought I'd add something of my own


BTW, good work Stefan.

Steppe Merc
07-06-2004, 22:51
Good job, keep up the good work

Oleander Ardens
07-08-2004, 12:39
Good worke, with some editing and stucturing it will be fine; http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I will PM you some research of mine http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Cheers

OA

Mouzafphaerre
07-08-2004, 16:41
-
Your historical work is admirable. Well done folks and keep it up

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
_

hundurinn
07-08-2004, 18:03
Maybe you want the Icelandic version of that. Icelandic is almost identical to the old viking language. We can still read our books that were written more than 1000 years ago with out some experts having to translate them.

Oden=Óðinn
Tor=Þór
Balder=Baldur
Frej=Freyr
Tyr=Týr
Heimdall=Heimdallur
Hoedr?God of darkness?Only thing relates to may be Hel=Don't remember this one
Forseti=Forseti
Frigg=Frigg
Freja=Freyja
Sol[Not really a goddess]=Sól(I think)

Stefan the Berserker
07-09-2004, 19:16
Zitat[/b] ]Hoedr? God of darkness? Only thing relates to may be Hel

Sol[Not really a goddess]=Sól also -> Sunna

Hoedr was the blind Brother of Baldur, with a trick Loki=>Lopt=>Lukifer used Hoedr to become his brother`s killer. For this Action Hoedr was disbanned from the other Gods of Asgard and had to find a new Way along with the Thursen. Until the Ragnaroek Hoedr will live in darkness...

Sol was the name of the Godess who drives a Wagon with a HUGE Fireball, same affects her Brother Moon(/d) who drives a wagon with a HUGE silverdish. Die Sonne (Female) and der Mond (Male) in modern german still intend that there was a female Sungodess and a male Moongod, their names nevertheless have been transferred on the Dishes they had to carry instead of them byself.


Zitat[/b] ]Loki=>Lopt=>Lukifer Loki is the same as the Medieval german "Luzifer". The Romans used the Name "Satanus" for the germanic Lukifer/Loki, Satanus means somehow the same as Hospes (Enemy) or "Evilman". With the christianisation the chritian's "Satanus" (the Beelzebub from Jewish Religion) mixed with the germanic Loki having the same Name in Latin. That explains why the Lucifer in old tales is so totally diffrent from that one in the Bible, just if people like to know...

hundurinn
07-09-2004, 19:20
I was trying to remember Loki but couldn't, thanks for refreshing my memory http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

The Sword of Cao Cao
07-12-2004, 01:39
I was watching Gladiator last night, and in the opening battle scene theres a Germanic warrior hefting around a big stone attached to the end of a staff. The guy I was waching it with, has read and studied up on ROme quite a bit, and was telling me the Germanians really did use those. He said the stone weighed around tne pounds, andi t was basically the equivalent of being hit by a giant sledge hammer.

Anyone vouch for this?

DemonArchangel
07-12-2004, 02:17
yo dude, it's basically a warhammer or an old school caveman stone axe.

AvramL
07-13-2004, 06:15
I have read a lot dealing with the Germanic tribes of the Roman period and have not heard of this before, weapons of the period around 180 AD (when gladiator supposedly takes place), based upon archealogical finds, appear to have been mostly spears (of all kinds including throwing),along with a mixture of bows and secondary weapons such as the seax (single edged long knife) or hand axe and ofcourse some swords for the wealthy as well.
Needless to say, something like that, even if there is no evidence to indicate its existence (and I'm not saying there isn't) is still perfectly plausible, though I find it highly unlikely that a Chieftain would wield such a simple weapon, as he would have had access to far higher status equipment (including body armor such as a mail coat), and displaying one's status was very important indeed.

Its completely unclear in the film, but Marcus Aurelius' campaign along the Danube in 179-180 AD was in fact not an invasion of Germania across the river but actually a search and destroy mission against elements of the Quadi and Marcomanni tribes which had crossed their way (much to the irritation of the Romans) into Roman territory. Thus the opening battle sequence is not really accurate in its portrayal as taking place within Germania. (Unless I'm wrong and a punitive expedition was launched briefly across the Danube as happened frequently along the Rhine).

shingenmitch2
07-13-2004, 14:35
Other than a rock carving of the Gallic god Sucellus (I suppose some derivation to Thor) who holds an extremely long war-club, I've not seen anywhere that the Germans used an extra long war-club. I suppose it is possible, but I've not come across it.

As far as Gladiator goes -- fun fantasy, but that is it. The movie is unwatchable in terms of anything approaching historical accuracy in arms, armor or tactics. The Romans don't fight in formation, hell the Gladiator scene has fantasy armor and show helmets from 500 years later. BTW why did they have to invent a helmet for Crowe, there are so many cool full face Gladiator helmets?

I'd say Sparticus is better movie by far, except for the sword-play which is Erol-Flynn fencing as opposed to shield block and stab.

Stefan the Berserker
07-13-2004, 18:03
Zitat[/b] ]I was watching Gladiator last night, and in the opening battle scene theres a Germanic warrior hefting around a big stone attached to the end of a staff. The guy I was waching it with, has read and studied up on ROme quite a bit, and was telling me the Germanians really did use those. He said the stone weighed around tne pounds, andi t was basically the equivalent of being hit by a giant sledge hammer.

Anyone vouch for this?

The Thing you discribe is a "Kornklopper", a small-size Millstone fixed on a Stick. Just about 150 Years ago they were still in usage by Farmers who couldn't pay the prices of the Mill and tried to make it manually, of course that was not very efficently. Useing Farmingtools as Weapons was very common within peasants of any Culture... But I don't see anything specially in that Weapon, through then you could also claim on having the Unit Barbarian Peasants beeing armed with Forks, Showels and anything else that hurts...