Kataphraktoi vs Pronoiai Allagion

[Gith]

I'm playing my first Byzantine campaign, and I'm wondering which I should use.

Pronoiai are more expensive, no? Is this because of the description of them being "mercenaries"? They are faster than Kataphraktoi, but they lack the charge and the heavy armour.

Anyways, which is better? I figured Kataphraktoi, but the cost threw me for a loop. Or is this a situation of completely different uses?

[RollingWave]

kats have considerablly higher defense and armor ratings and are cheaper... but PA are better in everything else (slightly better in attack... faster... siginificantly better charge and better moral...)

However... just produce both from their respective valor bonus province..... they are for different propose anyway... kats can charge right into just about anything and slug it out (well.... not like they are fast enough to flank much anyway :P) while PAs should be used like all other cavs... flanking and charging.... not fighting long slugfest...

[econ21]

They're both good, especially as you can get a +1 provincial valour bonus for both.

I personally like 2 kats which I place in the centre back - they act almost like fast armoured spearmen (which Biz lack); counter-charging any heavy cav frontally that I can't cope with. PA are a little fragile for head-to-head stuff, whereas kats (esp from Constantinople with good armour) are robust.

Then I have 2 PAs that I put on the wings, which act in the traditional HC role of riding into the enemy rear, gutting archers and then charging into the backs of the main enemy line. Kats are a little slow for this role.

[katank]

Ichi and I had a long discussion over this. I prefer katanks and he prefers porno cav as he calls it.

in favor of kats, high defense value and ability to counter charge enemy heavy cav by spreading them in a long thin line in front of your battle line so they protect your vulnerable byz inf and varangs from cav charges as you lack anything beyond vanilla spears. They are also cheaper in raising and support 375 vs. 425 and 105 vs. 125

PAs are simply feudals with lower charge IIRC. they are your typical heavy cav and thus have a speed advantage over the kats.

Frankly, I rather use Byz lancers which are far cheaper for the flanker strike cav role as the PA cost is prohibitive to me. I will build a few as part of the model army though just for the feel. avar nobles are a better choice than either and moldavia is very accessible to the Byz.

[ichi]

Yep Pronoiai Allagion are essentially Feudal Knights with a slightly reduced charge and slightly better armor.

Porno Cav come straight out of the box at morale 8 so they can be used with low command rating Generals - with the province bonus and other upgrades they are deadly.

Kataphraktoi are very strong, especially on defense. They are slow, so think of them as fast heavy infantry. Kats make the best Generals.

Pornos make up the bulk of my Byz army, but Lancers do well in the desert. I think that PA are a better buy unless the BLancers are pumped up.

Byz Cav especially when pumped up, are very effective. Alans can be one of hte best light cavs in the game.

Every unit has their use - Kats as Gens and for defense, Pornos as the main battle cav Byz Cav to shoot and then kill, BLancers in the desert and (also Alans) as skirmishers, flankers and routers.

ichi

[Doug-Thompson]

There is the matter of building requirements.

Constantinople will be the first province to produce either unit, since it is the most developed.

Constantinople gives a bonus to Kataphracts. So, what do you want -- bonused Kataphracts or non-bonused PA?

I have to go with bonused kataphracts, even though I prefer the PA.

Kataphracts are as slow as a camel, but are too tough with that bonus to ignore.

[eds]

I'd go with PA. The only slow cavalry I tolerate are Gothic Knights and then just barely. I never buy Kats, single or multiplayer.

I like fast cav best of all - Alans and Szeks especially.

[Gith]

I've always been a fast cav person myself, just I am liking experimenting around a bit with heavy cav.

So far I've used Kataphraktoi as described...heavy cav to plug holes and shock troops, and PA as flankers. I am thinking I'll probably stick to Kataphraktoi and use Byzantine Lancers or steppe cavalry as flankers.

[Maedhros]

I like Kats as ceremonial troops. I enjoy seeing them in action. Assuming of course they get there before it is over. Normally they just guard princes, or charge with the prince or important general to ensure his survival.

PA cav are nice, but once I have improved lancers available I don't bother due to cost. 4-5 lancers get the job done and then some.


Anybody here bother with Byz Cav?

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Maedhros @ July 06 2004,22:27)]Anybody here bother with Byz Cav?
Absolutely. One of the best horse archer units around.

[dessa14]

they're too much like Szekely to ignore, any hungarian player knows the value of Szekely.
so if you can get byz cav i rate them as probably the third best skirmish cav.

1:boyars
2:szekely
4:byz cav.
thanks, desmond

[katank]

I don't see a role for PAs in my armies.

I use juiced up lancers and Byz cav and then Kats for close in shock.

never rear attack with kats, just roll up the flanks or you'll be too late.

lancers can tear into the rear ruthlessly while my Byz cav lead their cav screen or some other hapless units on a wild goose hunt and then charge in for a quick kill later.

[Oleander Ardens]

Same with me;

Byz cavalry are my screen, Byz Lancers my spearhead and Katanks my Katanks..

PA are nice and I may add them some in a while, but mark the word add.

Standard Byz army:
Trez Archers, Naphta, Katanks, Lancers, Byz Cav

Cheers

OA

[Vanya]

GAH

A Vanya fave...

Get some kats and put them in the second line of your army, screened by infantry in front.

As youz approach the enemy pigdog army of fools, split your FRONT line of infantry and send them outwards during advance, thus creating a widenning GAP in the middle of your army. 'Tis best to have them running when youz do the split, and make sure youz close to enemy pigdog lines so he can be dazzled by your marching band experience.

Then as the gap widens, send forth your kats charging in wedgies up da middle The enemy pigdogs were probably expecting the kats to go around the flanks

But kat be too slow for that. Vanya sez... kats best used charging FORWARD

So, kats smash enemy pigdog center while the two infantry groups collapse on enemy pigdog wings. The kats will likely break the sword units in the enemy pigdog middle. And if they break through THE MIDDLE, the rout is almost a guarantee

Vanya sez... enemy rout faster when their center breaks that when something happens on a distant flank.

Vanya sez... kats best used as an anti-infantry force, not as a cav deterrent or counterforce. Despite this, keep them away from outstretched starched Ramen Noodles...

Vanya sez... go see reality tv to see domesticated kat fights

GAH

[Gith]

Vanya's advice sounds wise indeed. Vanya's advice will be given a shot next battle http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[katank]

always listen to vanya.

BTW, I think kats are your only shot at anticav due to lack of good spears unless you count the swiss troops you can get but that's a bit of exploit in the game.

[Mablung]

Arbs could be used sort of like an anti-cav.
Or a tactic i never use, pin then bomb with naptha.

[katank]

I like the pin and bomb for jedis esp.

still, the problem is the pin. often, the cav has enough power to rout the vanilla spear unit upon impact esp if they have 2-3 units double teaming the spear.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] (Vanya @ July 09 2004,02:21)]GAH

A Vanya fave...

Get some kats and put them in the second line of your army, screened by infantry in front.

As youz approach the enemy pigdog army of fools, split your FRONT line of infantry and send them outwards during advance, thus creating a widenning GAP in the middle of your army. 'Tis best to have them running when youz do the split, and make sure youz close to enemy pigdog lines so he can be dazzled by your marching band experience.

Then as the gap widens, send forth your kats charging in wedgies up da middle The enemy pigdogs were probably expecting the kats to go around the flanks

But kat be too slow for that. Vanya sez... kats best used charging FORWARD

So, kats smash enemy pigdog center while the two infantry groups collapse on enemy pigdog wings. The kats will likely break the sword units in the enemy pigdog middle. And if they break through THE MIDDLE, the rout is almost a guarantee

Vanya sez... enemy rout faster when their center breaks that when something happens on a distant flank.

Vanya sez... kats best used as an anti-infantry force, not as a cav deterrent or counterforce. Despite this, keep them away from outstretched starched Ramen Noodles...

Vanya sez... go see reality tv to see domesticated kat fights

GAH
IIRC, you were owned once by Kanuni this way Vanya http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif



Eventhough he didn't even masked his move by placing the infantry first on the centre. The maneuvre is smart though, I experimented with it once 2 months ago (that was the last time I went online http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif damn, should have more free time)

[Mablung]

Should be called "Vanya's Feint" http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
It sounds awesome, would some Byz cavaly help soften up enemy by skirmishing ahead of the main force?

[katank]

sounds like raw power strat to me.

Byz cav don't pack enough punch for this kinda smash and go operation.