Hellenic TW mod

[shingenmitch2]

I just got turned on to the Hellenic TW mod. Can I say simply friggin awesome. This is what RTW should be striving for in terms of feel and units. It is all laid out for CA. I haven't played the campaign since MTW first came out. I'm playing the HTW campaign and absolutely loving it.

First let me say that correct names for units and buildings means a lot. I wasn't too concerned about them for RTW, but after playing HTW , I now understand how much that goes toward creating the "feel" of being in the era. STW did it and it makes a difference. The correct terms not being in RTW will hurt the game. Anyone who says otherwise can disagree, but they're WRONG.

Second. Well thought out, historically accurate units -- both in their stats and in their visuals. Can I just say "WOW" The effort and detail that the HTW modders put into their game is amazing. It shows. And the "barbarian" factions are not treated as such. They have well thought out army lists and make up that adds so much to the campaign. It is hard to quantify what it adds, but the QUALITY of the work simply makes a difference. What is the difference between Honda Civic and BMW Roadster, they are both cars right? Well that quality difference shows. The RTW experience will suffer for having Yule Brenner Archers, Celtic head slingers, war-band this -- war band that, piggy here piggy there. Those who say it all simply "cool" again, whatever, you're wrong. The HTW mod has unequivocally proven it to me.

As an unbelievable perk, the maps are really well thought out and the hill-forts look fantastic. Who knew even they could be modded?

I'm totally bummed out thinking about what RTW could be, but that CA has specifically CHOSEN not to be. I am one that understands the compromises a GAME has to make. I was utterly blown away by STW and understand the limitations on that game. CA made the effort there to be the best it could. HTW has many limitations imposed by the MTW game engine, I understand that completely and yet that game is in many ways light-years ahead of where RTW seems to be now, even with all of its pumped up graphics. HTW has shown the way, but alas, it hasn't been taken .

To any who have worked on that mod. I am in utter amazement of your effort. Great job http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[flip]

Thanks for your feedback, we really appreciated, a lot of time here, a year since the beginning of the mod.
The modable capability of RTW will define if we'll keep working on MTW engine or not.
A new project is on the works...a big one, without Yull Bryner's http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
BTW, we have a new room at the org

HTW (http://www.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=SF;f=38)

[swe_gamer]

Do you need the MTW Viking expansion to use the mod?

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Nothing new here, shingenmitch2

[shingenmitch2]

hehe, was all new to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif
But it is interesting comparison of where we are with RTW (as far as we know about the game) and what was done with HTW.



swe_
I think you do need VI to run it (at least I had VI installed when I copied the MTW folder). But check in the HTW forum or on their site, I'm sure they explain all these things.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Everyone must go and play HTW (unless you are preparing for the HTW mod for RTW, that is). EVERYONE.

Simply splendid mod, thanks to all of the HTW team (is this how you spell Gerousia?)

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Lil' Timmy]

hmm.. am i the only one that thinks the gold situation is out-of-hand in HTW? don't get me wrong, i like the mod, but no matter what i build i just can't seem to ever lose any money.. just seems odd to me.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ July 07 2004,12:48)]But it is interesting comparison of where we are with RTW (as far as we know about the game) and what was done with HTW.
Interesting or sad? That would be a more apropriate word... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-cry.gif

[HalfDone]

People looking down on rome total war and havent played it yet... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/flat.gif

[Lord Aeon]

HTW is a great mod, no doubt (and certainly not flawless)... but i think it more than a little spiteful to contend that it could be better than RTW will be, especially when there are so few of us that have actually seen the game in action.

Re:Title and description of thread

You people never cease to amaze me. It's absolutely astounding, even, how quickly the whole experience of RTW can be reduced to the existence of a few units deemed historically inaccurate. Very nice.

[HalfDone]

Rome Total War will be a great game, theirs just too many ppl in this forum thats quick to judge. Theres a lot of posts against RTW and whenever there is a good post, theres always a person that makes it bad. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

[PSYCHO]

Here here

[discovery1]

Quote[/b] ]a year since the beginning of the mod.


Just a year http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif The Gerousia
are truly gods on earth. Not only can they basically remake MTW, but they can do it in so little time.

[shingenmitch2]

Aeon/Halfdone,

I know where we were with STW. It was ground breaking. Even with all the effort at creating a brand new game engine, CA put the effort in to doing the best they could to transport us to medieval Japan. It was excellent.

MI was a quickie add-on and not much could be expected from it. The Kensai was a bad precedent that , for what it added to the game, wasn't worth the time put into drawing it.

MTW was a weak effort that hardly went beyond MI, but at least they attempted to keep the factions historical.

VI again, a quickie add-on an not much could be expected. All throughout this, except for the Kensai and "invisible ninja" I never bitched once.

Okay, so now CA is going to redesign the TW series completely, soup-to-nuts. My expectations are raised. CA could go in 2 directions. Get back to STW and really push the historical feel and put you in the era of 200 BC. (which, BTW, CA is quick to highlight as a fantastic historical time... ) In STW they used names terms like Yari, Naginata... used a map that had the actual medieval provinces of Japan and had the battle map match the terrain -- The game was, as so many like to say, "kick ass" already, they didn't need to do that, but they did.

OR they could go in the direction of the fantasy Kensai and MTW with its more generic buildings and decidedly glossed over look at history.

RTW. From what I've seen the overall graphics will be fantastic. Yes the 3D world will look fantastic, better than HTW, which was limited by MTW engine. Okay great. But where is RTW as a game? I think we've seen enough to be able to comment on the game direction. It is definitely the Kensai direction.

In reworking the game engine did they decide to model the unit fighting more accurately? No, but they worked out flipping guys from elephants. Did they delve into Celtic culture to give us uniquely Celtic units? How about that "barbarian obelisk?" ... yah, that was found in most of their hill forts. Did they give us a decent unit list for the limited factions? Nope, we get soldiers for Egypt from 1000 years earlier --- and other that NEVER existed. Can I complain yet?

Okay, compare that to what a few peeps did in their spare time with HTW. The barbarians are not treated as such. They have unique and accurate units. Even their cities were designed to look fairly accurate as fortified hill forts. We get interesting unit names, well and accurately rendered units. Hell, I could see Boetian hats on the light greek Cav, and the metal Boetian on the Companions.

They gave us historic eras... the GEOMETRIC for god's sake... an archaeologist's demarcation of time-period. They produced CHARIOTS???? That look fantastic.

In short, the HTW is the most immersive TW game since the original STW and it shines because of the reality not in spite of it. Oh, and guess what... it is every bit as "kick ass" as MI, MTW or VI in terms of game-play.

It is very fair to compare where this LIMITED mod is and where TW has been and where it is going.

[The Wizard]

Yes, HTW is a fine piece of modding...

Anyway, in my belief, the gameplay of the TW series is still great -- the amazing campaign which has almost endless replay value, the battles, the sieges, everything. Add to that the new stragetical features, and it becomes even better.

Still, the whole experience is marred, because of these innacuracies. I'd like to enjoy all this potentially great, ground-breaking, amazing gameplay draped in the feel of the period, with the correct names, the correct behavior on the field, etc... in other words, the gameplay paired with the best possible simulation of the period's feel there can be.

What RTW is looking like right now is more like the gameplay paired with some kind of half-done simulation, which is an enormous pity.

What, is CA or Activision scared that Thracian rhomphaia theurophouroi with the right behavior, dress and language will scare away reviewers from PC Gamer, CGW and the average consumer? I don't think so -- the gameplay will (hopefully, but I have little doubt of that) be so good that everything added to it makes it better. Which means that more historical accuracy is better than less; the same goes for the new engine.



~Wiz

[Hagbard la Suede]

That's just retarded,STW being better than MTW?
HTW being better than RTW?Don't get me wrong here,STW introduced the whole concept but MTW was not just a facelift,it actually brought the whole Total War FEEL to it.
You were now given access to a huge landmass,with hundreds of units.

HTW is an excellent mod,and ive had quite fun charging spartan hoplites with my northern warbands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

but RTW.....is simply amazing.Though we havent played it yet,its like MTW and HTW times 35.All units may not be realistic,but who cares?Nobody alive knows exactly what a certain culture used,and they are probably never going to know.

RTW-----------------------------------
HTW--------
MTW------
STW---

If you cant see this,you're simply too limited to understand it.

[Lord Aeon]

Once again i am amazed that people here still think of Rome in terms of ONLY graphics, unlockable campaigns and units. Amazed, but not surprised. After all, i've been coming to the org for quite awhile now.

Why not comment on diplomacy and (presumably) the ability to buy a whole city rather than conquer it or barter passage through allied or neutral territory? Why not bring up the open map, new terrain effects and the new naval invasion system? Why not talk about building cities, roads and bridges? Why haven't you mentioned multiplayer historical battles?

Gimme a break. If you people were any more short-sighted, you'd be staring at the insides of your cavernous skulls.

[The Wizard]

Well, I have mentioned a few of those. I love the new stragetical stuff, for it is a huge improvement over the boring Risk-style strategy of the previous TW games. The gameplay is better -- it's just that the feel of the period, as far as what we've seen, is being missed. I'm going to enjoy this game over its gameplay alone, but I believe that more historical accuracy is an addition to the gameplay that is needed more than a fancy new engine.

By the way, the two last posters, especially Lord Aeon -- calm down, will you? People are worried that this game will miss the mark that it wants to hit, and therefore give criticism.

This game, as the Cap'n stated, aims to be a simulation of the historical period, immersing you in the world of the 3rd century BC 'till the early 1st century AD. Personally I'm worried that while it gives new options to the TW series that improve it, it will fail to incorporate these options into the simulation, therefore leaving a good deal of immersion out that should have been in.



~Wiz

[shingenmitch2]

Hagbard,

To clarify:

----------
HTW

---
VI

---
MTW

------
STW

Just about the only thing that was done better in MTW over STW was the improved graphics. BIG DEAL.

I understand that Rome will be a quantum leap in graphics and triple the campaign strategy over HTW. For someone who is so far beyond me in understanding, you have completely missed my point.
Shocker.

-------------------
Aeon,

Yep all that stuff will be great. But guess what? The campaign is still a secondary feature of TW. It will never sell TW on its own and will not surpass games who's sole focus is on empire/economy building. What distinguishes this game? The battles, and what do we use to fight the battles, the units --- thus my "short-sighted" focus on them.

But back to all the campaign stuff. It would be nice to build empires that felt more like the real deal -- the way that STW & HTW do, instead of the way MTW does not.

[Puzz3D]

Historical considerations aside, balancing the tactical gameplay is an iterative process. The initial release is a first approximation, and it would take many iterative steps with player feedback between each step to fine tune the gameplay. CA seems to have a policy of producing one patch, an add-on and one patch to the add-on. That's only 3 iterative steps which is far short of what is required to achive a fully balanced tactical game. MTW has several mods which all improve the tactical gameplay considerably over the final MTW/VI v2.01 official release. I don't think there is any question that the better MTW mods will offer superior tactical gameplay to what RTW v1.0 will have to offer.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Hagbard la Suede @ July 08 2004,08:39)]That's just retarded,
Nope. You're the retard here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif



Quote[/b] ]STW being better than MTW? HTW being better than RTW?Don't get me wrong here,STW introduced the whole concept but MTW was not just a facelift,it actually brought the whole Total War FEEL to it. You were now given access to a huge landmass,with hundreds of units.
STW was a LOT better, in fact. Before babling about stuff, try to understand what they were saying. It was a LOT better in terms of historical feel and immersion, not in terms of game complexity.

The Japanese Sengoku period involves one culture and two religions. MTW's situation is very different: it involves 12 cultures and 4 religions. By the way STW was developed (unit names, videos, voices, throne room, Way of the Daymio), it outshines MTW in immersion and historical feel.



Quote[/b] ]HTW is an excellent mod,and ive had quite fun charging spartan hoplites with my northern warbands http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

but RTW.....is simply amazing.Though we havent played it yet,its like MTW and HTW times 35.All units may not be realistic,but who cares?Nobody alive knows exactly what a certain culture used,and they are probably never going to know.
How can you say that is simply amazing? You haven't played it yet It can be or not amazing. Personally I think it will be very good technically and very bad in feel and historical immersion.



Quote[/b] ]RTW-----------------------------------
HTW--------
MTW------
STW---

If you cant see this,you're simply too limited to understand it.
ROTFL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh4.gif Ridiculous rating

No, kid. You're the limited one in here... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

BTW, in terms of immersion and fell (not game complexity):

STW > MTW > RTW

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 08 2004,17:17)]
How can you say that is simply amazing? You haven't played it yet


Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 08 2004,17:17)]
BTW, in terms of immersion and fell (not game complexity):

STW > MTW > RTW
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

You are hereby dubbed the King of Contradiction

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Incidently, there are a couple on this forum vying for the royal jester position, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif so don't feel like you're alone.

[The Wizard]

Look, stop mud-throwing now or we might as well have this thread closed. Savvy?

Anyways, how about you stop trying to diss each other in idiotic ways (Aeon, and unfortunately you too Aymar http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-no.gif) and give arguments why you think one game is better than the other?

--------------------------------

mitch http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

I largely agree with you but one thing:

It is a bit easy to dismiss MTW as less immersive and historical then STW. With STW CA had only one culture and civilization to worry about, and thus that narrowed the slate hugely.

It was a lot harder with MTW, where there were three cultures and a heap of factions and many of them were the same; therefore CA opted for more generic names to accomodate for that. Given, they could have put more work into it but a lot of units are good efforts (with the notable exceptions of course).

I seem to remember that CA entioned that there will be less units in RTW to concentrate more on historical accuracy. That's why it's a pity that it isn't exactly working out. :\



~Wiz

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Lord Aeon @ July 08 2004,23:10)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 08 2004,17:17)]
How can you say that is simply amazing? You haven't played it yet


Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 08 2004,17:17)]
BTW, in terms of immersion and fell (not game complexity):

STW > MTW > RTW
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

You are hereby dubbed the King of Contradiction

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
Am I? Your mind really doesn't have the capacity to grasp what I've said, does it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

He said:

Quote[/b] (Hagbard la Suede @ July 08 2004,08:39)]
but RTW.....is simply amazing.Though we havent played it yet,its like MTW and HTW times 35.
He did an erroneous judgement saying that RTW is 35 times better than all previous games, WITHOUT having played the game. The difference can't be accounted for WITHOUT having played the game

As for my comparation of STW-MTW-RTW, that one takes into consideration factors that have been revealed already. Nobody needs to play the game to take them into consideration. These revelations marr, in every way, the Historical immersion and feel of the game, like the bogus New Kingdom Egyptian faction or the erroneous fantasy units like the Iberian Bull Warrior and Briton Druids. So, accordingly, and as a great revelation to your brain, I can say that (in Historical immersion and feel):

STW > MTW > RTW WITHOUT having played the game. Got it? I don't need to explain any further, do I? Or do you want me to speel every word? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif

Pay attention and stop being a bigot, maybe you'll learn something... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif



Quote[/b] ]Incidently, there are a couple on this forum vying for the royal jester position, http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif so don't feel like you're alone.
Yes, you are one of them indeed. And I'm not the other... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[alman9898]

Theres a difference between RTW and HTW -- RTW has a publisher, HTW does not. And publishers don't really care for historical accuracy, just $$$.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ July 09 2004,14:28)]Theres a difference between RTW and HTW -- RTW has a publisher, HTW does not. And publishers don't really care for historical accuracy, just $$$.
Then why was Shogun TW so good in Historical immersion? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif It was CA already... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-yes.gif

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Thank you for all those kind words about HTW,but frankly i really don't care about RTW not being historically correct.
RTW will be much better:A1,graphics,diplomacy,general game play balance and so on,that is what counts.
The rest:we will just mod RTW until it is a historically perfect game

CZoF http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[HalfDone]

Quote[/b] ]Rome Total War will be a great game, theirs just too many ppl in this forum thats quick to judge. Theres a lot of posts against RTW and whenever there is a good post, theres always a person that makes it bad.

You ppl here in this thread just proved my point. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (HalfDone @ July 10 2004,05:20)]
Quote[/b] ]Rome Total War will be a great game, theirs just too many ppl in this forum thats quick to judge. Theres a lot of posts against RTW and whenever there is a good post, theres always a person that makes it bad.
You ppl here in this thread just proved my point. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
LOL http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif Against RTW? Can't you read? We just want RTW to the best that it can be Not a laughable game, when it could be a masterpiece http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-rolleyes.gif