Weapons for Archers

[Game Over!!!]

I read somewhere that weapon upgrades for ranged units only effect there melee capability, is this right? Does producing archers in a province with a metalsmith do anything to their arrows or just when they fight hand to hand? In my current HRE campaign, all of my iron provinces are producing only melee units. Am I mistaken? Thanks for any help in clearing this up.

[Blodrast]

weaponsmith or metalsmith only increases their attack, i.e. their melee capability. It has nothing to do with their missiles. So your archers will get slightly better in melee.

[mfberg]

But remeber, even +1 melee for a vanilla archer is much better, not just slightly better.

mfberg

(I don't upgrade them until all my other units are upgraded)

[katank]

armor is far more important for archers.

weapons don't affect arrows.

iron provinces are better used in producing attackers like maa and knights.

I think in a thread a while back, we discussed the order in which upgrades shoudl be done for each unit type.

[Game Over!!!]

Thanks for the clarification gentlemen. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif It's good that I didn't waste any archers with weapon upgrades. May the eggy's beware of my teched up pavise crossbows, minus weapon upgrade of course.

[Beirut]

Very interesting.

But is there no increase in accuracy when the weapon is upgraded? That's what I thought all this time and have probably been wasting time and resources as a result.

[RollingWave]

I'm pretty sure there is a increase in the archer's range effectiveness with valor upgrades... thus welsh longbows fire or tripoli turcomen horsearcher are both more much effective ranged units.

[Servius]

yeah, every unit has a stat for attack, defense, morale, as well as some others. Weapon upgrades add 1 to your attack value per level of upgrade, while armor adds 1 to defense. Holy buildings add 1 to morale. Some buildings, like cathedrals, add more than 1 additional point to a stat.

Attack affects how good your unit is at killing other units
Defense affects how hard your guys are to kill (applies vs. missiles too)
Morale affects how likely your units are to break and run

1 point of valor adds 1 point to attack, defense, AND morale.

only valor affects a missile unit's chance to hit and each arrow's chance to kill (those are two different varaibles).

besides height, only modding improves range :-)

armor upgrades alone are best for spear and missile troups, though keep in mind that the more armor, the quicker the unit tires. Exhaustion affects speed, morale, and (for missile units) the number of your guys who shoot each round.

weapon upgrades alone are best for units who attack in the flanks or rear but who rarely fight face to face. Light cav (Hobilars, Jinetes, etc.), light infantry (Highland Clansmen, Gallowglasses, etc.)

weapon and armor upgrades together are best for units that often fight face to face, like men-at-arms and knights.

one other thing about armor upgrades, the multiplying effect they have on exhaustion is further multiplied when fighting in the desert. So, say your units get tired twice as fast in the desert without armor upgrades. If you then double their armor with upgrades, they'll tire four-times as fast.

one last thing about weapon upgrades for archers, some archer units are not half bad as light infantry. Longbowmen are a perfect example. Their defense isn't so hot, but they're attack is pretty good. As such, they're good flanking infantry in a pinch. So if you find you're using your archers as light infantry quite a bit, weapon upgrades may not be a bad idea. But definitely upgrade your men-at-arms and knights first.

[Beirut]

Excellent. Thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] ]Defense affects how hard your guys are to kill (applies vs. missiles too)
- actually a unit's armor level determines it's chances against arrows/bolts. A unit like pav-arbs (def-2, armor-6 with pav-shield) is very resistant to missile fire but much less effective in hand-to-hand combat.

each armor upgrade gives +1 defense (for melee) AND +1 armor (for ranged attacks)
each point of valor gives +1 defense & attack, and +2 morale

[WorkNeglecter]

I know that I am in a minority on this, but I always try to give weapons upgrades to all my ranged units. Obviously I give priority to melee units, but because upgrading an existing unit COSTS NOTHING, if you have cash problems it is better to upgrade your existing units rather than let your metalsmith sit idle.

The second consideration is that missile units - especially arbalesters - gain valour quickly. So, even if their starting attack is poor, at V2 or V3 - plus general bonuses - they can have fairly decent attack stats against v0 opponents, and if you give them a weapon upgrade, their attack can be quite powerful.

This is important when you are trying to save cash. You can field a 16-unit army knowing that your missile troops can, if necessary, enter melee against UM, peasants, etc. In the desert, unarmoured weapon-upgraded missile troops can melee effectively against exhausted armoured opponents.

This is also important when you are attacking and can't wait for reinforcement melee troops to arrive at the scene of battle: you can use your missile troops.

But I know that most other forum members disagree. Maybe they don't have the cash-flow problems I generally have.

[katank]

well, generally, if I have metalsmiths up and running, I usually have at least 100k in the bank and profit of more than 15k a year.

I can afford to pump out new units nonstop but upgrading missiles could help. it's just a matter of priority.

I would put missile weapons on the same level as spear weapons.

[Oleander Ardens]

I almost never bother to retrain units as it is pretty much mircro, only when I go one province valor/morale and the other weapons/armor I will do it on a regulary basis...

Still hybrids (GHW, BB, WB) are a sure bet for weapon upgrades, and also archer will get them, especially if they are Welsh and from Guent.

[Medieval Assassin]

The hybred archers should have some weapon/armour up grade,
Longbows can fight in melee http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif , Add, a couple attack and defense and they are a very capable force after thier missles are exhusted.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

[katank]

isn't that sort of coming up with exceptions? I think hybrids don't fall into the stereotypical missile category but are more like swords with weaker defence but can shoot.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 08 2004,18:12)]well, generally, if I have metalsmiths up and running, I usually have at least 100k in the bank and profit of more than 15k a year.

I can afford to pump out new units nonstop but upgrading missiles could help. it's just a matter of priority.

I would put missile weapons on the same level as spear weapons.
HRE in GA means that you have metalsmiths but little cash, because it's hard to set up good trade routes early in the game, especially if you're only conquering GA provinces.

That's a case where I'll upgrade every unit I've got...

[katank]

then why build metalsmith, max farming first

also, the HRE GA requires Milan and Tuscany so it only makes sense to sack Venice on the first turn which yields instant keep with shipyard = early crusade + trade.

also Genoa should be taken to minimize borders and get sailors.

you could upgrade every unit you have but only if you can't afford new ones.

unless very strong and expensive unit, I don't upgrade them until I get a few units smashed in combat and recombined them into a strong veteran unit which I will retrain.

rinse and repeat usually end with extremely high valor units such as my v14 halbs.

OT:

darn enemy arbs and flukes by the enemy actually attrited a few and I was soon left with only a half unit of it though. I kept it as imperial guard duty until I fought the last battle of the game in which I deployed them and had them lead the charge into the brawl.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 09 2004,16:51)]then why build metalsmith, max farming first

also, the HRE GA requires Milan and Tuscany so it only makes sense to sack Venice on the first turn which yields instant keep with shipyard = early crusade + trade.

also Genoa should be taken to minimize borders and get sailors.

you could upgrade every unit you have but only if you can't afford new ones.

unless very strong and expensive unit, I don't upgrade them until I get a few units smashed in combat and recombined them into a strong veteran unit which I will retrain.

rinse and repeat usually end with extremely high valor units such as my v14 halbs.

OT:

darn enemy arbs and flukes by the enemy actually attrited a few and I was soon left with only a half unit of it though. I kept it as imperial guard duty until I fought the last battle of the game in which I deployed them and had them lead the charge into the brawl.
To keep the challenge I don't take non-GA provinces. Otherwise I'd play TD. I also find it more challenging if I have to use mediocre units, it requires more strategy. I like to win battles with basic units. I invest heavily in morale buildings so that I can count on some of the simple units to hold up, and give them bonuses, rather than invest in farm improvements. The latter give limited benefits in most HRE provinces, anyway.

[katank]

actually no. provence, burgundy, lorraine are all farming powerhouses.

they should be upgraded to 60% or 40% at the very least with 80% for provence.

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 09 2004,18:30)]actually no. provence, burgundy, lorraine are all farming powerhouses.

they should be upgraded to 60% or 40% at the very least with 80% for provence.
Looking at the Startpos file, I see that those provinces are all fairly far down the list for base income. I suppose if I am lucky and get high acumen governors and good stewards I might raise income, but they are nothing compared to the base incomes in other kingdoms' provinces. I think that this is the challenge in HRE: keeping a decent standing army. This is also historically accurate.

[katank]

if you develop farming in HRE, you can scrap up a decent income.

the problem is the huge number of borders and necessity of large garrisons which means you might make a lt but also spend a lot so you'll always be cash poor.

blitzing the Italians is a nice way to remedy that with Venice and ship building for trade as well as other rich provinces.

blitzing the Danes also grants you not only viking units but Sweden, another economic powerhouse with iron.

retaliation against the French should involve sacking Flanders.