Pursuit

[Doug-Thompson]

Good pursuit turns bloody stalemates into decisive victories. In the best case, there won't be a siege after the battle because your enemy will have no escaped survivors to garrison his fort. The ransoms you get will also enrich you while impoverishing your enemy, making one florin of ransom worth two florins of regular income.

Good pursuit starts long before a battle is fought, because having pursuit in mind helps decide what units to train. You also have to go into battle convinced that you are going to win, and that cutting off the escape of your enemy is something you must to prepare for. Finally, the only difference between pursuit and envelopment in battle is that, with envelopment, your enemy hasn't routed yet.

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Speed alone does not make a unit a good pursuer. This is important.

A pursuer has to catch his enemy, but then he also has to take him prisoner or kill him. There is a fight at the end of the race.

Vanilla horse archers, for instance, are as fast as any unit in the game. The slower hobilar, however, is a better pursuit unit because of its better melee.

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I'm at work now, and will have to finish this later. Here's a puzzle for anyone who's interested:

A unit of feudal men at arms are fighting some Almohad Urban Militia. The FM@A are then hit in the flank by some Ghazis while, somewhere else, their general dies. The M@A rout, but other allied units are still fighting. The Almohad player also has some Saharan Cav available.

What should each of these units do?

1. The AUM
2. The Ghazis
3. The Saharan Cav.

[katank]

AUMs go to ally to help

ghazis depending upon position and amount of FMAA left should charge through the FMAA to get to the battle at least or hunt the FMAA down due to superior speed.

saharan cav could be used to run down the FMAA or used as flankers for allies.

BTW, valor is important. v1 or better, I would use the saharans for the FMAA otherwise, ghazis are surer bet of catching them and kill them.

[HicRic]

That's a very good point. Far too often much of the enemy army escapes to fight me again/garrison a castle under seige because I don't have forces in place or ready to chase routers effectively. However, it's best to let a lot of people escape than just five-because a fortress with five enemy soliders in will need assulting to take, a costly process (probably). That's about the only case I can think of where catching the enemy army can be bad, as if they had a larger garrison the castle would fall faster.

As for your puzzle...well, he's my stab at it. I've only played one game (as the English) so I don't really know the units, but I'll give it a go.

I'd say the AUM and Ghazis should move off to flank/rear attack the remaining fighters of the enemy army, and be in a good place to capture further routers, and use the cavalry to chase the fleeing FM@A.

[Blodrast]

why not look at it this way ?
your jobs are:
1. capture the running infidel dogs
2. fight the remainder of the non-routing troops

SC are the faster of the troops, and are good enough for capturing the FMAA.
If not too many FMAA are left, and they are not very close to the map edge, I would say:
SC go after them; AUM and Ghazis engage the enemy.
This way, by sending the fastest unit after them, you will ensure that they are captured in the minimum time, and you can use all 3 troops for the actual fight.
If you send one of the other troops after them, they will take longer in capturing them, and therefore you will be deprived of some of your forces for much longer. Besides, the Ghazis and AUM will probably tire faster than the SC, so they will take longer (if at all) to catch up with them and return than the SC would.

Of course there are other factors at stake, such as fatigue of all involved units, number of remaining FMAA, and distance from map edge.

[The_Emperor]

Forget pursuit, go for the full on surround

http://www.imperator.v21hosting.co.uk/Mongolcrush.jpg

[katank]

I like it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

still, some jedi generals had that sort of thing happen to them but somehow killed through hundreds of my guys and still escaped calmly so they didn't even get any bad vices. GAH

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 07 2004,21:49)]I like it... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

still, some jedi generals had that sort of thing happen to them but somehow killed through hundreds of my guys and still escaped calmly so they didn't even get any bad vices. GAH
Fortunately I had killed the Khan a couple of hours earlier... (also use of Sword units rather than spears helps against Jedi gens)

[Doug-Thompson]

I like the Emperor's example, but did say:


Quote[/b] ]Finally, the only difference between pursuit and envelopment in battle is that, with envelopment, your enemy hasn't routed yet.

[The_Emperor]

Yeah but you get a lot more prisoners this way. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

It's been a long day. I can't tell if I'm agreeing with The Emperor or arguing with him. I think I'm agreeing.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 07 2004,23:44)]It's been a long day. I can't tell if I'm agreeing with The Emperor or arguing with him. I think I'm agreeing.

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif
Well pursuit or surrounding, it doesn't matter so long as your winning http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Doug-Thompson]

And the puzzle winner is -- katank.

The Almohad Urban Militia is no faster than the Feudal Men at Arms. They would chase a long time for very little results. They should break off the pursuit and attack something.

The Ghazis are faster than the FM@A. They are also in contact already, and their high melee value means that the chase will not be a long one. They should bag a bunch of prisoners, then charge some other unit in the rear.

The Saharan Cavalry are twice as fast as the Ghazis but not in contact yet. They should get in a wedge formation so they can move quickly through whatever gap is available and get somewhere where they can block the routing unit's retreat, then unfurl into a long, thin line in close formation.

The FM@A may be panicked but they aren't stupid enough to run right into a bunch of cavalry. The routers will turn -- and the faster pursuing Ghazis will cut the corner and bag many prisoners. The short pursuit will become much shorter. I like to call this move herding. Also, the Saharans are now in perfect petition to block the flight of the rest of the opposing army, or make a their own charge into the enemy's back.

[Doug-Thompson]

Tip #1

The oldest trick in the pursuit book is charging through.

Don't order pursuing cavalry to attack. Double-click some spot past the fleeing unit, making the cavalry run through them. The bag of prisoners will increase dramatically.

I use a long, thin line of cavalry in close formation, casting the net wide without leaving gaps between each cavalryman.

[katar]

very true, i do it slightly differently;

if they have a good head start you should specifically click on a spot where you have seen other routed units heading for at the edge of the map.

double click there and your hobilars etc will charge straight for that spot and at the same time converge on the enemy unit you are trying to wipe out, you can usually make a good guess if that is where they are heading.

it usually gets them to the enemy a bit quicker as they don`t have to keep adjusting themselves to close in on the enemy. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

p.s. it`s nice to be able to choose my avatar, many thanks. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 08 2004,23:38)]Tip #1

The oldest trick in the pursuit book is charging through.

Don't order pursuing cavalry to attack. Double-click some spot past the fleeing unit, making the cavalry run through them. The bag of prisoners will increase dramatically.

I use a long, thin line of cavalry in close formation, casting the net wide without leaving gaps between each cavalryman.
I have also noticed that by doing that you tend to lose more men in the chase...

Whenever I play the Turks I always lose a lot more Turcoman Horse charging through routers than i do when targeting routers.

[katar]

if you block the path of the fleeing forces as you charge through you will usually loose more men, attacking them form the flanks and rear will give you fewer losses.

and if you target them just before you hit them it might go better for you.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ July 08 2004,19:30)]I have also noticed that by doing that you tend to lose more men in the chase...

Whenever I play the Turks I always lose a lot more Turcoman Horse charging through routers than i do when targeting routers.
That's true, but there's another factor at work there: the Turcoman Horse' relatively low melee value.

The higher the melee value, the fewer the losses and the greater the target's losses, whatever the method used.

Charging through causes relatively more casualties to the pursuers, but ends the pursuit much more quickly. That's an OK trade-off if the unit is a pretty good melee unit, like a jinette, for instance, or if the pursued unit is a bunch of weak-melee types like regular archers.

However, if the pursuing unit is a little on the weak side and the pursued unit is strong, it's quite possible to lose more units than you gain. Send a bunch of Slav Javs to chase some feudal sergeants, for instance, and watch what happens.

Even if you have a really strong pursuing unit, like royal bodyguards, that unit might not be good for charging through. Every loss from a unit like that hurts. There's only 20 of them anyway, so they can't spread the net all that wide.

[katank]

that's quite true.

try to have high melee value units that are fast do the job and still expect to take some losses.

BTW, once v2 from Cyrenacia, I find saharan cav to be quite possibly one of the best pursuit units in the game as they have fastest 24/26 speed and 4 attack.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (HicRic @ July 07 2004,15:27)]... However, it's best to let a lot of people escape than just five-because a fortress with five enemy soliders in will need assulting to take, a costly process (probably). That's about the only case I can think of where catching the enemy army can be bad, as if they had a larger garrison the castle would fall faster.
That's a valid point.

First off, this obviously assumes keep-level defenses or higher. Five guys can't hold a fort.

It also assumes that you aren't ready or able to bribe or storm the besieged unit. I'd argue that any attack on a province defended by a fortress needs to have an emissary nearby for bribing.

The bottom line is that letting a large number of hungry mouths escape is a valid option. I'd argue that you should go ahead and pursue and kill off high-value units, though. Let peasants and other rabble run if you want to. They have low loyalty anyway.

[katank]

I frankly try to bring lots of cav and catch them all but there's some stupid situations when a single enemy router is inches ahead of my cav and the battle just ends with him not captured

it's an interesting balance. either try to catch them all or not any at all catching all but a few is the worst ever.

also, if the AI launches repeated attacks on the province and retreats, it would cause any assault attempts to not go through.

[HicRic]

That's a good point, actually. I hadn't considered bribery as a good way of getting around that problem. As there are few men, it'll be cheap. If there are many men, they'll starve

[katank]

yep, the intact infrastructure is worth a lot more in most cases.

[bighairyman]

Off-topic, but katank and The_Emperor, where did you get you avatars? they look great http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[katank]

RTW prefixed avatars.

looks like you figured it out already though. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

With both the Nizaris and Ghazi, the Eggy have two supreme infantry chaser, beside the v2 SC.

By the way the chasing of routers is one of the main reasons why a usually always keep producing Szekely in Hungary; They are pricless and catch routers in no time once their swords become better and better - this also applys to the Jenittes


Against small infantry armys I tend to encircle them even before the fighting starts, this way fewer escape


Cheers

OA

[RollingWave]

I find that reinforments though complicate this matter greatly..... usually when fighting big big fights (like those involving 2000+ men) I'm usually very conservative on chasing routers.... as a fresh group of even peasents could sometimes rout ur totally exhausted and battered elite armies.... in these situation i only let my fastest cavs give chace while rounding up the rest of my army on a good fortified position (including heavy cavs... u'll need them later... they are great rout chases yes but losing them is too much of a risk) or call for reinforcment of my own etc...