Cannons

[HicRic]

For something that takes up a whole unit slot in my army, I find cannons to be somewhat useless. Sure, they're great in castle assults, but in a straight battle..

I have VI, and I've tried using the Organ Gun. Tried. However, it has an incredibly small range It's so easy for the enemy to just completely stay away from them, so they don't fire a single shot. When they did them managed to kill a few of the enemy, though, so I suppose my real question here is how to lure them within the tiny range?

Secondly, with the bigger cannons. Serpentines and Culverines. I've used them in custom battles, but I didn't like them. Sure, they give a morale penalty, but they kill next to nothing for me. They totally miss more often than not, and when they hit, they kill one or two people. I've got 20 kills at the most from one. I find that I'd much rather have a unit of Pav Arbs or Longbows in my army racking up kills than a cannon wildly firing across the map missing stuff.

Is there a more effective way of using them that I'm missing totally? Any cannon masters here willing to share any tips or tricks?

[Sarnaen]

I only use normal Cannons in a seige.
For Organ guns, I use them as the Defender. I set one up within range of the gate in my courtyard. As soon as the enemy break through the gate, I unleash a few rounds from the Organ gun and then hit them with the garrison. The morale-shredding effect of the organ gun tends to make life much easier for my defenders.

[Medieval Assassin]

All I know is this, and for me this works great,

Cannons over-shoot their target, alot. So if the ememy is coming at you, and it is in two rows, or three rows, and the gen is in the second or third row, aim for the front row,
If the cannon over shoots it will rip up the second and third row.

[Lt Nevermind]

Culverins and Serpentines are for totally different purposes, Culverins (and demi-culvs and bombards) are only practical for castles. Serpentines in the other hand are meant to used against troops, they don't do $hit against walls. I've found Serpentines to be extremely useful once you get high valour to them (and you get it quick), they become real sharpshooters and can easily kill a hundred men per cannon in a steppe battle (bouncing effect is most effective there). Having even 4 of them is a good choice IMO, furthermore you can use them to finish off towers which are generally missed by inaccurate culverins.

[Antimatter]

Not exactly cannons, but I twice had a 0 valor catapult kill the enemy king that he wasn't even aiming at in one shot (in two battles in a row oddly enough). He shot at one unit, missed by like 50 yards, and it landed on the enemy king and instantly killed him. I thought that was amazing the first time I saw it, but when it happened again the very next battle I decided to start carrying around a few seige weapons with my defensive armies...

So in short, they can be useful for their instant kill effect, and should be fairly accurate at high valor. Just aim for the front row and let it overshoot or just roll through and mow them down.

[Petronius]

Yeah, I've always found catapults to be a great use to me while under siege or just in a regular defensive battle. As long as the troops are of higher valour, they tend to kill lots and lots of enemies and have the nice bonus effect of missing their target and hitting someone important. :)

[Gith]

I enjoy Culverins and demi culverins for smashing down walls. I've also had good luck using them as a pre attack bombardment against an enemy army (one round killed the enemy general). However, while I've never used them, I'm sure serpentines are better against infantry.

[desdichado]

I don't really care how effective they are its just wicked fun bouncing a lot of cannon balls through the enemy lines (even better when you are following the projectiles).

However they do get valour pretty quick which can make them real effective, esp in bridge battles.

[HicRic]

Oh yes, I enjoy watching the balls bounce around through the enemy ranks (did that come out right? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif ) but I wondered about their combat affectiveness. I didn't think of valour affecting them, because archer accuracy doesn't go up with valour. I'll remember that.

Cheers

[Duke of Gloucester]

Sometimes you get lucky with artillery. A couple of times I've killed the enemy general (once with a trebuchet and once with a demi-culverin). Once the enemy general was killed by his own catapult. The real disadvantage is you can't move them. When attacking you can't even choose where they go. I would say that unless you are storming a castle, non-directable artillery (trebuchet, mangonel and bombard are useless). In defence, they can be helpful, especially if you can withdraw them when the ammo is gone and replace with other troops. However there is a skill in placing the pieces and I find it hard to select the right place for them. Anyone else any ideas?

[The_Emperor]

Canons are good. Especially in a defensive battle.

Their range gives them the ability to really hit the enemy hard while they advance.

At any rate if you take catapults and cannons in when attacking and the enemy is camping too far away, you can always withdraw them and bring on some more useful units.

[katank]

in attacking, you could deploy your siege.

I usually place it forward as much as possible to force the AI off favorable locations like hills etc.

never underestimate cannons. the morale penalty and often killing gen is usually enough to make the suckers run.

also, aim for the front and in the middle of their battle line. if they miss, the shots will usually still hit somewhere on the flanks and the bouncing shot will carry it through to the back rows.

arty definitely are more accurate and kill more with valor (note: internal valor, not what generals give)

culvs are effective field arty due to insanely long range and turning ability.

serpentines are sniper rifles.

organ guns are machine guns with tiny range.

what you do with orgran guns is to skirmish with some HAs or something towards you main battle line whcih usually consists of the spear wall, in this case with a gap for the organ gun.

try to make sure they attempt to hit that section.

I've tried jutting that section out etc.

once they are about to close, fire the organ gun. BTW< use them on hold hold or often they don&#39;t get a shot off. use spears to cover them.

target high value enemy troops as they can easily kill more than half an unit in a single volley and siege don&#39;t care abotu armor.

[desdichado]

Quote[/b] (Duke of Gloucester @ July 08 2004,20:44)]The real disadvantage is you can&#39;t move them. When attacking you can&#39;t even choose where they go.
as far as I remember you can place seige weapons wherever you want (within your deployment zone) even when attacking? Or have I imagined this as I don&#39;t use them real often on attack.

[katank]

yeah, you could deploy siege in attack.

I deploy as forward as possible to gain relstate on the map. and make sure they are in range of hills etc. so as to be able to force enemies off.

[Duke of Gloucester]

You might try a tactic that the AI has tried (inadvertently or deliberately) on me. Both times I was defending. The AI lined up opposite me with some artillery in the front rank - a couple of catapults IRC. The AI then moved the mass of its troops well over to my left flank. I turned my army to face them, exposing my flank to enfilading fire from the two catapults.

Could have been nasty, but it didn&#39;t work. In the first example, the AI left a couple of units to defend the artillery, but was outnumbered overall. You just can&#39;t win if you divide your forces in face of a larger enemy (unless you are Robert E Lee) and it was easy for me to send some units from my right flank to attack the artillery and use the rest of my forces to crush the opposition. In the second example, the artillery was left on its own, so it was easy for me to run it down with a cavalry unit.

However, with a high honour culverin or demi-culverin, this approach could be devastating, provided the units were protected. I am going to try this out as soon as I get to the late era in my current campaign.

[Thomas_di_Montessi]

Hey Duke of Gloucester, your a strategist onto my own heart
Dividing your own forces in the face of any opposition can be risky. I learnt that the hard way from very early on, when a small band of almughavars and chivalric Knights pushed a wedge between my forces, who then for some daft reason decided that because their flanks were un-defended, promptly fled the field of battle, despite being twice the size in number, of the opposition

[Thomas_di_Montessi]

as for all artillery, especially of the gunpowder type, I love &#39;em all http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Despot of the English]

Demi-culverins get my vote in the field of battle - killed several generals and a couple of monarchs with those babies.

[katank]

demiculvs are also workhorses for me as the bombard tend to blow up and culverins aren&#39;t as accessible.

when you can though, culvs, serpentines, and organ guns own all.

[Si GeeNa]

I remembered a long long time ago... Some 2 years ago infact, when we discussed grazing

It refers to something like how the arti would aim for the bounce to roll just nicely at head-level of the enemy. Its all in the bounce of it.

We can&#39;t replicate grazing exactly. We can only aim for the foremost and hope that the balls bounce just right. Grazing can easily knock 6-8 heads off

GAH

[Despot of the English]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 12 2004,20:48)]demiculvs are also workhorses for me as the bombard tend to blow up and culverins aren&#39;t as accessible.

when you can though, culvs, serpentines, and organ guns own all.
True. One good shot from an organ gun will send most units running, that is if they haven&#39;t all be chopped into slabs of meat http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

[Sun Tzui]

I just love Serpentines....many Kings and Generals have lost their heads thanks to my experienced crews http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[katank]

high valor serpentines are sniper rifles, culverins are big arty, and organ guns are short range MGs.

add in some handguns as line infantry with maybe a CS or two for meat shield and arbs for killing power and you have a killer army

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Si GeeNa @ Juli 13 2004,03:46)]I remembered a long long time ago... Some 2 years ago infact, when we discussed grazing

It refers to something like how the arti would aim for the bounce to roll just nicely at head-level of the enemy. Its all in the bounce of it.

We can&#39;t replicate grazing exactly. We can only aim for the foremost and hope that the balls bounce just right. Grazing can easily knock 6-8 heads off

GAH
Are you talking about real life artillery? For those could kill 40+ men with a lucky shot. Around half of them after the bounce.

[katank]

I wish for real life type artillery.

I think NTW artillery is a bit too much but a nice balance in between that and MTW should be good.

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 13 2004,10:02)]I wish for real life type artillery.

I think NTW artillery is a bit too much but a nice balance in between that and MTW should be good.
yes katank my thoughts exactly, i loooooooooooooove organ guns and other arty in siege battles. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif and bridge ones. the pure carnage is hilarious http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wacko.gif

[katank]

yep. want a slight boost to say culverins and demicuvs in kill rates but not as crazy as NTW.

organ guns and serpentines are already powerful enough.

[Maeda Toshiie]

Like someone said, using bombards is like playing Russian Roulette, can imagine the crews taking bets on whose would go off first.

Mainly used demi-culverins as the Catholics, never gotten to higher tech. Those where enough to smash most castles.

[katank]

field arty. we are discussing field arty.

actually, I once found a use for bombards.

I had a forward placed bombard (on attack) that exploded as the enemy cav tried to rush it.

I think I killed a dozen horsemen. it was hilarious.

the other times they either took out half my battery or my general. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[HicRic]

The big problem I have with using arty is that it just doesn&#39;t seem to kill much. Maybe I&#39;m missing more than I realise, but it seems every time I shoot I kill only a couple of men-I&#39;d much rather have a unit of archers in there instead, or some other missile unit. (of course, if it hits the enemy general it&#39;s always good https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif ) I always feel that I&#39;m throwing away a unit slot on non-seige battles by sticking a cannon in it-but then again, the cannons I&#39;ve used have all been 0 internal valour (just general-gained valour).

To be fair, I&#39;ve not used cannons in many field battles at all. I&#39;ll give them more of a chance in my next game (I&#39;m trying out VI right now).

[katank]

their strongest point is in their range, in being able to force enemies off favorable defensive positions on attack, and making them eat shots all the way across the map if on defense.

also, their morale penalty is the best, particularly gunpowda.

with 6+ cannons, some handguns, and arbs for killing, the enemies suffer so many stacked morale penalties from under fire, casulaties, and under fire by gunpowder weapons that they often rout without even making contact.

[The_Emperor]

Exactly,

its the Shock value of Gunpowder that makes it effective... Plus nothing is quite as funny as when a cannonball flattens the enemy general https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_surrender.gif

[Inuyasha12]

Or they get tired of it after acouple of volleys, and charge/overrun your troops and gun positions.

[katank]

nope, nothing other that cav can really make it there without routing and they have to get past your few melee units as well as getting mowed down by the arbs.