View Full Version : Desert archers
WorkNeglecter
07-08-2004, 10:55
I have been producing ONLY DA's in my Almo game. They cost a little more to produce (250 vs. 225) but cost less to maintain (30 vs. 37). They are obviously better in the desert - don't tire - and run faster (12 vs. 10) but I wonder if they have penalties in lush/temperate terrain. Does anyone know?
I guess the only defect is that they cannot be built outside of the desert, and that you can't give them weapon upgrades without modding iron into the desert.
Not really any penalties. I like Desert Archers better than normal ones, as even in tight formation they receive less deaths per volley.
No, desert archers don't suffer in temperate or lush terrains, and the cost differential over 4 turns makes them cheaper. In my egypt/almo games I always have desert archers in my army mix.
mfberg
Doug-Thompson
07-08-2004, 16:12
Nothing to worry about here. Desert archers are better than vanilla archers, period. They are faster. They have a small shield, so they don't die as quickly in melee or from missile fire. Finally, their morale is better.
Great little unit all around. If I'd kept track, I've probably killed more enemy troops with desert archers than with any other type of unit.
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 08 2004,10:12)]Nothing to worry about here. Desert archers are better than vanilla archers, period. They are faster. They have a small shield, so they don't die as quickly in melee or from missile fire. Finally, their morale is better.
Great little unit all around. If I'd kept track, I've probably killed more enemy troops with desert archers than with any other type of unit.
you evil infidel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif no just joking, they're great units
turks get them too as it's not that hard to get into the desert provinces and they shoudl take out the Eggy anyhow.
The_Emperor
07-09-2004, 01:24
Desert archers are much superior to vanilla archers.
If you have the choice always go for them.
However I find that Turcoman Foot make for the best Archers... They are Armoured and stand in a more loose formation (just like Javelin throwers do).
They are just what you need in the early period (especially trained in Anatolia) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
only thing they lose is speed over the desert archers.
they do have steep reqs compared to DAs which should be your main force for a while.
I frankly prefer futuwwas to turcomans but turcomans hold the line better and duel better but don't pack much of a punch at all.
Mouzafphaerre
07-09-2004, 05:35
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DAs. They are good, fast, reliable. Once out of ammo, they can be used as good flankers too.
_
Doug-Thompson
07-09-2004, 15:28
Last night, the AI sent a bunch of vanilla archers out too far forward to get in a missile duel with a unit of my desert archers.
I didn't duel. I just charged the regular archers.
The enemy archers had a full load of ammo because they hadn't been in action yet. They fired a couple of volleys and then ran like rabbits. My desert archers had very little ammo left after helping wipe out some horse archers.
Practically the whole rest of my army -- mainly Nubian spears and camels, both vulnerable to arrows -- charged the rest of the now-archer deprived Turk army. Thanks to the "good runner" vice I'd given their sultan two turns before, it was a massacre.
The DA chased the archers until they were almost off the map, eventually stopping to fire the last of their arrows into the fleeing archers' backside.
Kristaps
07-09-2004, 15:42
Quote[/b] (The_Emperor @ July 08 2004,19:24)]However I find that Turcoman Foot make for the best Archers... They are Armoured and stand in a more loose formation (just like Javelin throwers do).
They are just what you need in the early period (especially trained in Anatolia) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
The problem with Turcoman foot is that by the time the turks get to build them (one needs a castle and a bowyer guild), the Early is already halfway gone and the Turks probably own most of the map already (if played by a human).
This holds especially true for Anatolia since the province has no fort to begin with. Of course, one can mod the game so that Anatolia starts with a fortress, but I'm talking about the standard game here.
My bottom line: turcoman foot soldiers are great, but since the requirements to build them are so high, their significance is not that great in the early period and later - the turks get better units anyway.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif
p.s. turcoman horsies are a different matter: grab tripoli ASAP and build up to master horse breeder... can be done very fast.
valor 2 turcoman horse archers http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
I like to build silver armor in Const and then facilities for ghazis and futuwwas. this at least partially offsets their horrendous defence.
on the way to futtuwas, I build the reqs for turcoman foot first and may pump out a few turcoman foot
however, I also find missile dueling stupid and will tell my missile units to melee with their's and the AI stupidly skirmishes away (or tries to). if they stuck around and fought, they might actually have won.
RollingWave
07-09-2004, 16:06
Acturally turcoman foot are still considerablly easier to acquire than jannisary infantry unless you build const or rum strait up for the military academy... other wise the high age would also be half gone by the time you get jannisary if you build more normally.... and Tucoman foot is basically just jannisary infantry with much lower attack and somewhat less moral.....
However they are right... for most of ur early expansion ur going to rely on desert archers (or turcoman horse if ur the turks) they are considerablly more useful than normal archer however in most cases you should still treat them like normal archer and avoid going into melee unless left with no better options.....
armored DAs aren't bad at all.
by 1110 at the latest, I already carved out my empire and usually turcomans never play a role. even saracen inf provide little impact
DAs, spears, HAs, camels, UM are my bread and butter with a nice dash of mercs to provide some power.
RollingWave
07-09-2004, 16:28
yes katank but most of those fighting were done in the desert :P and after that u'll start running into the western army which by now may have things like fmaa or fedual sergent/knights.... by then u'll start to need them saracens and rigged AHC turcoman horse/foot etc...... and obviously always have some fun with the rigged JHI along with rigged AHC army :P :P .... click attack and bust open the victory beer http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif
Doug-Thompson
07-09-2004, 20:31
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 08 2004,10:55)]you evil infidel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif no just joking, they're great units
I like that. I should put that on my avatar.
Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 09 2004,14:31)]
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 08 2004,10:55)]you evil infidel http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif no just joking, they're great units
I like that. I should put that on my avatar.
feel free to http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif btw, katank, how do you win with those units? maybe i suck but i find feudal warriors rout them and chase them back to the desert from whence they came. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif
I don't fight feudals with them
I'm usually done with securing the Const., Georgia, Egypt triangle and am pretty strong from that time on.
the fight to gain that richness is the tough one that my low level troops take on.
the trouble with the AI is that they often can't afford many feudal troops whereas now I can afford many troops.
also, massed archers with spears are amazingly effective against the AI esp. if the wall is made up of saracens.
RollingWave
07-11-2004, 06:38
Well not many things can really beat a well formed spear wall head on ...... (no... even maa acturally aren't incrediably effective at this... they will win eventrually but will take a LOOOONG time and probably take quiet a bit of damage due to rank bonus)
A good wall of spears should be the center of most armies... (unless ur the mongols/Almohads/byzantian .. almos could use nerubian too i suppose but using muhawid in this fashion isn't that good while byzantian center would usally be BI and later kats and VG too...)
that's the whole point.
even MAA would take a while to chew through the spears in melee and take a long time but massed archery would destroy the MAA while they are hacking away.
Don Corleone
07-12-2004, 22:54
Katank, aren't you worried that the massed archers will be taking down that spearwall as quickly as it's thinning the herd of swordsmen? My big problem with archers is the friendly fire they tend to inflict. It's not that I don't use them, I certainly do (they're my anti-cavalry weapon), I just question their effectiveness against any enemies that are trying to melee with you. Maybe I'm using them wrong? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif
lancer63
07-13-2004, 00:03
Quote[/b] (Don Corleone @ July 12 2004,16:54)]Katank, aren't you worried that the massed archers will be taking down that spearwall as quickly as it's thinning the herd of swordsmen? My big problem with archers is the friendly fire they tend to inflict. It's not that I don't use them, I certainly do (they're my anti-cavalry weapon), I just question their effectiveness against any enemies that are trying to melee with you. Maybe I'm using them wrong? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif
Maybe you should do some micro management with your archers right before your melee units engage withing their line of fire. Try and shift your fire to other ranged enemy units or unengaged ones to avoid as much friendly fire as possibble.
But no matter how careful you are with your misile troops. The eventual Murphy's law arrow will find its mark on the humanity (or spriteness, not sure http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/idea.gif ) of some of your own men.
Just try and avoid the sad experience of having your own 24 years old Aragonese king, being splattered by one of your own rocks from one of your very own trebouchets right when I routed the enemy and he was in hot pursuit of what was left of the German imperial house.
Lost that particular game right there. He had been an only child and was yet unmarried. That was a sad sight to see. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
WorkNeglecter
07-13-2004, 15:33
Quote[/b] (lancer63 @ July 13 2004,01:03)]Just try and avoid the sad experience of having your own 24 years old Aragonese king, being splattered by one of your own rocks from one of your very own trebouchets right when I routed the enemy and he was in hot pursuit of what was left of the German imperial house.
Lost that particular game right there. He had been an only child and was yet unmarried. That was a sad sight to see. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
I have been there.
I feel your pain.
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif
micro and bombard enemy units slightly back of them.
friendly fire is usually 2:1 in your favor with your guys dropping half as fast as the enemy.
shields and armor points could effect this.
even if equal kills. the enemy loses their entire sword unit of 60, you have 40 guys standing or maybe less but you still come out ahead costwise and swords require keep while spears are fort level.
as katank said who cares, you're richer, have more provs usually and you can afford the loss anyway, and i am a heartless b****** http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
yep. you can amplify the effect. not only do you beat him cost effectively, you are also richer so you can easily bleed them dry and not have a problem yourself.
look on the bright side, you'll kill the enemy along with your own and the more you kill, the less you have to feed.
English assassin
07-21-2004, 12:48
Does it make a difference if you enfilade them, ie move the archers out sideways and forwards and fire into the back of the pinned enemy (or more usually the side and back depending on how far forward you can get the archers?
I do this when possible and although you do still take friendly fire you would imagine it would be a lot less than trying to fire over their heads. But I've never actually counted.
it is better. in addition, if you fire from behind, it negates the effect of enemy shields and can be especially good against targets with large shields.
also, your guys can now use their shields with the friendly fire and change the ratio in your favor.
an unit of arbs firing at point blank into a unit of pinned knights is absolutely amazing in the devastation.
Sociopsychoactive
07-22-2004, 18:01
Yep, any archer unit is far more effective if firing into the back of an enemy, even moreso if the archer unit is stretched out this to allow them to fire in a stright line, not an arc and still let everyone fire.
Crossbows and pavise are far better for this as they have a stright trajectory of fire, not an arc, and they are actually far worse for friendly fire than archers if they are behind your spear wall, as they fire stright into the back of your units.
The best ones to fire into the back of a unit with are javlins tho, or naptha if you really want to splat them. Javlins will cut any enemy unit to ribbons in one or two volleys from behind, and naptha can kill them in one go.
Thats why archers are the ebst for use behind your oines, th arc of fire, no other ranged nits have this, apart from javlins to a small extent, but they have to be so close they usually get caught up in the melee themselves. Archers will fire over your troops and into unengaged units better than anything else, and are rally the only unit to do this effectively, even counting siege as siege is usually to innacurate to score hits on moving units.
the ablity to fire over spear wall is yet another reason to prefer longbows to arbs as they can fire well behind the spearwall on flat terrain not to mention the rate of fire.
pavs with that rate of fire, think about it Katank, they'd slaughter all https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif but yes like u i prefer longbows
they have 0.6 armor mod instead of 0.5 and may have slightly lower lethality so not quite as good per volley but overall are far better IMHO.
Doug-Thompson
07-22-2004, 23:29
Quote[/b] (English assassin @ July 21 2004,06:48)]Does it make a difference if you enfilade them, ie move the archers out sideways and forwards and fire into the back of the pinned enemy (or more usually the side and back depending on how far forward you can get the archers?
This is another reason for preferring desert archers to the regular type. They are faster and can defend themselves somewhat. They can get in that position more easily, and stay there longer.
Quote[/b] ]The best ones to fire into the back of a unit with are javlins tho, or naptha if you really want to splat them. Javlins will cut any enemy unit to ribbons in one or two volleys from behind, and naptha can kill them in one go.
It's a little-known fact that javelins aim and shoot first, then reload. Archers have to load first, then aim and shoot.
This seemingly minor difference is pretty important when you need to get a volley into the back of a strong armored unit. It's saved my rear against some Teutonic Knights on one particularly memorable occasion.
Also, javelins reload while moving.
i never knew that doug, javs reload on the move, thank you o great Doug Thompson for enlightening me https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-sultan.gif
Doug-Thompson
07-23-2004, 03:01
Even a dim light's better than the dark.
don't be modest now. the HA and jav thread was one of the best we had on the forums.
javs reload on the move, cool. I can shoot, walk back and shoot again. sweet...
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