Volley and direct shot

[Nowake]

Can't really remember if this was ever brought up. The thing is, now that Rome is 3D, it would seem non-sense and an eye-sore not to fix this issue.


Archers in TW fired untill now only in volleys, thing which was more or less acceptable. Even if a unit was inly 5m in front of them, they would still volley. Well, in a 3D enviroment this will look childish. If the enemy would be at a 40-50 meters distance, an archer would always aim straight for the man. So what I sugest is to make a difference:

1) the enemy is at a distance bigger than 50m, the archers volley, and their accuracy is not very good

2) the enemy is at a distance less than 50m, the archers make a direct shot, with increased accuracy and power


State your opinions http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[scooter_the_shooter]

good idea i never really noticesz that i usually pull my men out before they are hit. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

This would surly add to the immersion into the game;

As I regulary shoot with various bows this is something dear to me http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

OA

[Colovion]

STRONGLY AGREE http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif

[katank]

yep, being able to both volley and bombard from range or draw the bead on an individual would make archers a lot mroe interesting.

also, we should have less of the archer shooting guy next to him kind of thing.

I've seen archers shoot the guy next to him and it was kinda funny but likely not too realistic.

[Steppe Merc]

Especially for the horsearchers. They made them act like footarchers that were mounted, and I hope they at least try and replicate some of the deadlieness of the eastern horse archers. Sounds like a good idea http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[barocca]

(i agree)

one other thing has always bothered me,

in an archery duel between opposing units you never ran out of ammunition, you simply gathered the arrows that had been fired at you and sent them back...

(all archers were kind souls, after all the fellow at the other side of the field went to all that trouble to make that arrow it's only fair to let him have it back,
and seeing there are all those nasty men with bad breath and sharp pointy things between you and him, well you send it back the same way it got to you in the first place,
only common courtesy after all....)

B.

[Ironside]

Is this direct shot of the type when everyone tries to shoot as fast as possible and are less organised?

I agree that it would be nice.


Citera[/b] ]2) the enemy is at a distance less than 50m, the archers make a direct shot, with increased accuracy and power


Already implemented, ever seen a point blank shot of arqs or arbs?

I've seen arqs kill 35 men, out of 60, in one volley and arbs often take out almost the entire first line.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

That was one thing that bothered me. You would think that when an archer unit was falling back a few would turn and shoot... Or aim at individual targets when an enemy got close enough.

I agree.

[hundurinn]

Strongly agree to this. Would be great to see this come true.

[The_Emperor]

Quote[/b] (barocca @ July 09 2004,17:42)](i agree)

one other thing has always bothered me,

in an archery duel between opposing units you never ran out of ammunition, you simply gathered the arrows that had been fired at you and sent them back...

(all archers were kind souls, after all the fellow at the other side of the field went to all that trouble to make that arrow it's only fair to let him have it back,
and seeing there are all those nasty men with bad breath and sharp pointy things between you and him, well you send it back the same way it got to you in the first place,
only common courtesy after all....)

B.
well that is only true to a certain extent... Bows can break on impact with armour and shields, so

So while you can pick up arrows and shoot back, you won't be able to carry on indefinately. (especially in a 60 man unit)

But yes, I agree there should be an option for direct shooting.

[alman9898]

Agree

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 09 2004,12:37)]yep, being able to both volley and bombard from range or draw the bead on an individual would make archers a lot mroe interesting.

also, we should have less of the archer shooting guy next to him kind of thing.

I've seen archers shoot the guy next to him and it was kinda funny but likely not too realistic.
For 1 this does'nt happen that often. 2 that is a bit realistic. Bows did snap back in those days and if an arrow snaps while being launched it can take a new direction. The arrow was usually reinforced with bone but still had the chance of snapping. I heard about all the wonderful things that happen when you fire a wooden arrow from a compound bow so I figured why do'nt I give it a shot. Well luckily it only had a field tip but when it was fired the arrow snapped and the tail end kept going straight but the front of the arrow did a 180 and hit my stepbrother standing right behind me. Stupid me I was only 13.

As far as reclaiming arrows I think thats a little much to implement in the game, and if it was done it should have a recovery rate of 50 percent or so. Have you ever tried pulling an arrow out of something, even with a field tip it can be hard and somtimes they just pop right out.

As far as straight shooting that definately needs to be in because I think its rediculous when 1 royal knight slips through your lines starts mowing down 20 archers all because they kept shooting at a distant target.

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] (oaty @ July 09 2004,16:48)]
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 09 2004,12:37)]yep, being able to both volley and bombard from range or draw the bead on an individual would make archers a lot mroe interesting.

also, we should have less of the archer shooting guy next to him kind of thing.

I've seen archers shoot the guy next to him and it was kinda funny but likely not too realistic.
For 1 this does'nt happen that often. 2 that is a bit realistic. Bows did snap back in those days and if an arrow snaps while being launched it can take a new direction. The arrow was usually reinforced with bone but still had the chance of snapping. I heard about all the wonderful things that happen when you fire a wooden arrow from a compound bow so I figured why do'nt I give it a shot. Well luckily it only had a field tip but when it was fired the arrow snapped and the tail end kept going straight but the front of the arrow did a 180 and hit my stepbrother standing right behind me. Stupid me I was only 13.

As far as reclaiming arrows I think thats a little much to implement in the game, and if it was done it should have a recovery rate of 50 percent or so. Have you ever tried pulling an arrow out of something, even with a field tip it can be hard and somtimes they just pop right out.

As far as straight shooting that definately needs to be in because I think its rediculous when 1 royal knight slips through your lines starts mowing down 20 archers all because they kept shooting at a distant target.
As far as picking up arrows, the poster above is right: that'd be a pain in the ass to program, with no real payoff, save that you've pacified the masses of complainers at the org. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

First off, 2 groups of archers firing on each other wouldn't happen as often as you'd think. Second, if you're going for "historical accuracy" - the lifeblood of these forums and the alpha and omega of game design, apparently - you have to concede that when 2 units clash that have different weapon upgrades, one unit may be picking up arrows from the other unit that are better or worse than they made before the battle. So now your engine has to keep track of each arrow fired, since one arrow could fly back and forth maybe 5 or 6 times. Not worth the code and effort, when it's not even really going to impact the battle that much. You could make archers more effective against other archers, but... well... that's almost already in the game as most archer units in MTW have weak missile defense anyway.

Now with respect to archers firing behind them when retreating: 1. you're not going to get great accuracy and 2. they'll be more concerned with running than fighting, evidenced by the fact that they've routed. So in this case (and in the previous example with the archers picking up arows) the net result is a very small number of extra casualties. The question is whether these casualties will effect the battle in any significant way. I don't think so.

[Steppe Merc]

You ever heard of the Parthians? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif Most people of Scythian descent (Parthians, Sarmatians), would most deffienetly be able to fire behind them on horseback. And who said anything about routing?

[The Wizard]

Oh ho ho ho at the last paragraph in Aeon's post. I can see why you are against historical accuracy, for you don't seem to know all that much about it.

The so-called 'Parthian shot' was a mass murderer. It would be executed simultaneously with the 'Cantabrian circle', where horse archers would surround enemy formations and shoot them down while riding around them. Should the enemy try to get out of this deadly position, they would retreat from the enemy and while doing this they would fire backwards, killing many of the pursuing enemy and forcing them to get back into their previous position because their attack had grown weak and futile.



~Wiz

[Sir Moody]

wiz i do believe he was refering to Foot archers who would be a bit busy trying t oget their feet going the right direction to shoot behind them

[The Wizard]

Then he is still wrong, because foot archers have never tried, let alone done, the Parthian shot.

P.S. The so-called 'Parthian shot' was a technique already mastered by the Achaemenid Persians.



~Wiz

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ July 09 2004,18:13)]Then he is still wrong, because foot archers have never tried, let alone done, the Parthian shot.
What? Doesn't that support the point that casualties would be few?

[Steppe Merc]

Not all archers are on foot. The ones on horseback are a lot more imporant in most eastern armies.

[biguth dickuth]

Quote[/b] (Lord Aeon @ July 10 2004,02:25)]
Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ July 09 2004,18:13)]Then he is still wrong, because foot archers have never tried, let alone done, the Parthian shot.
What? Doesn't that support the point that casualties would be few?
I think that Wiz means that when it comes to horse archers, what you said about the effectiveness of shooting backwards is wrong because the "parthian shot" was very effective indeed.
When it comes to foot archers you are still wrong because there is no issue to talk about, as foot archers never shot backwards, so there were no casualties of backward shooting in this case at all.

[Lord Aeon]

Yeah, but that still doesn't make sense.

First, i was talking about foot archers, which isn't explicitly stated, but not difficult to glean for anyone with half a brain.

Second, if you actually read what i wrote, we're saying the same thing: archers firing back on advancing soldiers would be extremely rare.

And you're saying i'm wrong because it "never" happened. That sounds reasonable to you?

Frankly, i don't know that anyone can say that archers "never" fired while retreating... surely you can imagine a scenario where individual, less-disciplined soldiers would stop quickly to fire a shot back at advancing troops, right? Or have i overestimated some of you Org "fans" again?

[barocca]

settle down, we were talking about volley or shot,

i mentioned the recovering arrows as a joke,
(go back and note the "tone" of the language used)
but it is something historically done,
at hasting the 2 opposing groups of archers kept re-using what had been fired at them,
agincourt and crecy, where the english archers gathered arrows from their victims and fire at the next bunch as the english advance,

now away from history and back to the game engine.

regarding recovering arrows on the field Lord Aeon is right,
for the vast majority of battles fought in MTW or STW for that matter, recovering arrows would have insignificant effect on outcome to be worth the hassle of coding,

individual foot archers may have fired backwards when withdrawing, but the effect on an TW battle would be insignificant in the majority of cases.

horse archers firing in any direction while moving, that was not coded into MTW, but i sincerely hope it is coded into Rome.
Cantabrian Cricle, isn't that a featured formation of the new Sythian unit at .Com?
(lets hope that means firing while moving http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif)

B.

[The Wizard]

Quote[/b] (Lord Aeon @ July 10 2004,02:47)]Yeah, but that still doesn't make sense.

First, i was talking about foot archers, which isn't explicitly stated, but not difficult to glean for anyone with half a brain.

Second, if you actually read what i wrote, we're saying the same thing: archers firing back on advancing soldiers would be extremely rare.

And you're saying i'm wrong because it "never" happened. That sounds reasonable to you?

Frankly, i don't know that anyone can say that archers "never" fired while retreating... surely you can imagine a scenario where individual, less-disciplined soldiers would stop quickly to fire a shot back at advancing troops, right? Or have i overestimated some of you Org "fans" again?
The tone, man, the tone. Calm down or don't say anything at all.

Ah, but a Parthian shot is firing backwards while moving, and that is a near impossible thing to do when you're trying to escape from the clutches of the enemy on foot (which usually is the case when archers are moving).

Thus, the Parthian shot is a technique which is only practiceable by horse archers.



~Wiz

[Lord Aeon]

Quote[/b] (The Wizard @ July 10 2004,12:55)]Thus, the Parthian shot is a technique which is only practiceable by horse archers.
Yeah, you said that already.

[Nowake]

Geez, I'm glad you people found my ideea interesting. And wouldn't it be so much better if one of our devs would introduce it? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

It is a nice idea and it may even help to get over the problem of too few from close ranges. One could for example slightly increase accuracy and lethality once the archers switch from volley to direct shoot (~ 50-60 m)

Cheers

Meddix OA

[Lazul]

Agree and I also wish that you could have the option to tell the archers two words, "free fire"... with that said they can go on the more defencive and shoot when ready, not as a collective against 1 enemy unit at the time.

This could be usfull in chaotic situations and so on... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (Lazul @ July 17 2004,11:09)]Agree and I also wish that you could have the option to tell the archers two words, "free fire"... with that said they can go on the more defencive and shoot when ready, not as a collective against 1 enemy unit at the time.

This could be usfull in chaotic situations and so on... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif
Funny thing, is both the total war series supporst that but MTW has less of it. I remember the old shogun days when 1 unit of archers would quite often fire at 2 different units and sometimes 3 or 4. Shogun just seemed to have a lot more free fire with archers. As for MTW it is rare that 1 unit of archers will fire at more than 1 unit at a time but it does happen as in both games I rarely ever gave my archers orders on to what unit to fire at.

[Ragss]

Makes sense, but would the ranks after the first be able to fire directly? I would think not, unless they did the musket shuffle thing. You could have the first rank firing directly, and the other ranks firing indirectly, but this would be a hassle to program.


IMO, with the picking up arrows thing, I dont think it would be too hard to program, something as stimple as (keep in mind im not a programmer...) a 10% chance that an arrow, that didnt kill or wound, will be added back into the quiver.

[Puzz3D]

In the game, accuracy is a small error introduced on the initial trajectory of the arrow. So, the chance of hitting a man does improve when the target gets closer since each archer does target individual men. What's not modelled is the changing kinetic energy (power parameter in STW, and lethality parameter in MTW) of the projectile as it travels along it's trajectory. A dual value on this parameter depending on target distance would give a better approximation to reality than the single value system in STW and MTW.

Ranged units will target the closest unit, such as charging cavalry or infantry, automatically unless you have manually targetted some other unit. I think if you momentarily stop a unit from firing it will revert to automatic targetting if the fire-at-will option is enabled. It would be nice to see a true fire-at-will option where reload time was tracked individually and each man fired once his weapon was reloaded. I'm not sure, but I think reloading in time for the next volley is implimented as a random probablilty for each man that depends on the fatigue level of the unit. What's interesting is that fatigue is tracked for individual men, but the individual fatigue is then averaged to give an overall unit fatigue which modifies the combat parameters of all the men in the unit. For example, if a unit is exhausted, all the men in the unit can't run even if all the men are not exhausted.

[Nowake]

Quote[/b] ]What's interesting is that fatigue is tracked for individual men, but the individual fatigue is then averaged to give an overall unit fatigue which modifies the combat parameters of all the men in the unit. For example, if a unit is exhausted, all the men in the unit can't run even if all the men are not exhausted.


I know. This is very frequent for archer units, as it happens for only a part of them to fire, but the whole unit loses stamina.

[Sociopsychoactive]

As far as I know, each soldiers attack is worked out AND graphically represented individually for Rome:TW, so a realistic 'fire at will' mode shouldn;t be to hard to put in, if it isn;t already.

As for direct shot, well they aim at individuals already, not just units, and as witnessed, though not often, an archer unit can be seen to fire at two different units with one volley, re-enforcing this.

The direct shot, however, wold not be as effective as you think, as the killing power of the arrow is greatly reduced. What gives the arrow most of it;s killing power in a volley is GRAVITY. The arrow comes down far faster and therefore more deadly than it goes up. A direct shot wold have very little chance of felling even lightly armoured men, and no chance of felling armoured ones.

For direct shot you have crossbows and arbalests, and they are far more effective at it because the bolts fired have more illing power in themselves, being made of sturdier stuff than arrows, and they are fired more powerfully as the power comes from a wound spring, not the archers arm.

So I don;t think it would be as effective to implement this, the archers, if set on fire at will, do fire at the closest unit with priority giv to a unit attacking them, and as you often see only the first rank, or first two ranks atually get to fire, reducing their effectiveness greatly.

And, while I think about it, the archers did fire in volleys in history, and for a good reason. if firing at will, then the enemy would be picked off, if firing in volleys then a larger num,ber would fall all at once, meaning a far more detrimental effect on enemy moral, and often , if say firing into a cavalry charge, it would slow the charge by felling the firt rank as the next rank would have to negotiate it;s way around the flailing bodies of their comerads and their horses.

All in all, it works as it is.

[Ragss]

Quote[/b] (Sociopsychoactive @ July 23 2004,18:51)]The direct shot, however, wold not be as effective as you think, as the killing power of the arrow is greatly reduced. What gives the arrow most of it;s killing power in a volley is GRAVITY. The arrow comes down far faster and therefore more deadly than it goes up. A direct shot wold have very little chance of felling even lightly armoured men, and no chance of felling armoured ones.
I may have failed Physics this year in high school, but I'm pretty sure one of the fundamentals we learned, is that its impossible for something to come down faster than it came up, provided its on flat ground.

[HicRic]

Ragss is right; the arrow will lose energy as it rises in the first half of it's motion, and gain it back as it falls in the second half. (The conservation of energy-and like you said, as long as they are on the same height. If the archers were on a raised position then it is possible it will hit the target at higher speed than which it was fired at). It will actually end up hitting at a slower velocity than it was fired at due to energy lost to air resistance.

Oh, by the way Oaty, are you entirely sure about that? Because I've played a lot of Shogun and have never seen archer units firing on multiple unit targets. I've seen them shoot at one unit, and then another unit with the next volley, but never two units with one volley.

[Inuyasha12]

Makes sense, yeah it would be simple to do this. Even to mod it, if CA does not include it in the game.

[Oaty]

HIRIC I'm sure it could also depend on the patch. I remember having a unit of archers and no other archers in the battle firing at different units and the animation showed the archers facing the direction they were firing. From what I noticed is that the right flank of archers will fire at a unit on the right flank and if the ones on the left are not at ranege will do there own thing and if at fire at will will target what they can probably why this is hard to notice is that usually 30 of the archers will concentrate on 1 unit while the other 30 pick a target of there choosing. It is also noticable if you target a unit with archers if over half of them are in range they will stop and start firing. The other half will fire will fire at what is within range of them. The fact is that a volley is noticable and when 1 guy falls it is hard to notice. it could aslo be that in Shogun they threw in more variables to where some units will be way off target and this makes the effect of multiple units being hit. As far as medievel there does seem to be less variables with the archers and thats probably because they miss and hit a unit nearby a targted unit