New Unit - Scythian Noble Women

[Barkhorn1x]

at the .COM I'm no authority on the Scythians so I will not comment on the unit, the horse model now looks decent, tho'.

[DemonArchangel]

Disappointing...

[CBR]

Yeah I guess you wanted them to fight bare-breasted.. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


CBR

[DemonArchangel]

no, i doubt the scyth noblewomen actually looked like that

[Omegamann]

Well I do think the Scythian Garb was somewhat more colorfull, and I am not sure about golden breastcups being used, I noticed that this unit can form a cantabrian circle
Which means the riders will ride in a circle, shooting and reloding on the move.

[Maedhros]

I've never met one, I wonder if they will have a unit of skirmashers too?

I'm intrigued, depending on the horse they should be fast. Women weigh a lot less.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

IMHO, they are a pretty good unit. They really looked like that. There are however some minor problems, like the "knife" (???) (the "girls" used lance and sword too) or the golden breastcups. IIRC, Scythians used Scale-Armour without differentiation from sex. From what I've read, the characteristics seem OK, except for the "girls" weakness in close combat, although the Scythians were primarily horse-archers.

[Oleander Ardens]

Let's get to work

Good points:

+ Scythian/Sarmantian women were buried with bows and quivers
+ first part of the description makes good sense, and is well supported by hard facts and the words of Herodot
+ no female ueber unit
+ the horse seems pretty good to me
+ greaves were worn by wealhty western Scythians
+ the scalearmor (without the breastplate)
+ carrys the arrowcase on the left side

Bad points:

- she shouldn't carry a quiver but the famous gorytos ( combined bow- and arrowcase) of the Scythian tribes which classic asymetrical form is as well a trademark of them as the bow
- the compositebow of the Scythian was doublecurved, as you can see on the hundreds of pieces of art with Scythian Archers. Perhaps there is a deeper reason ( game-performance and so on) but it does definitly take away the "Scythian" feeling
- the breastplate; I have made a rather indeep research about Sarmantian and Scythian equipment but I have never seen such a thing
- the horse ought to be - gameperformance permitting - decorated in Scythian fashion. I don't even want to list all the possible decorations..


Some further comments:

Pretty long knife, if you ask me. Looks like a Sarmantian/Parthian longsword, not like an Akinakes. No big deal but I was just wondering.


I've seen a cap like this in on the head of a Sarmantian women; The Scythians men didn't wear such caps,but maybe their female counterparts - no prob here..


Cheers

OA

[Oleander Ardens]

@Aymar: Founds of arrowheads are very common in the female kurgans, but not swords or lances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif


I forgot:

The Sakae used such wheeling circles against Alexander;


Cheers

OA

[Steppe Merc]

Well, it could be worse I guess. What is with the breast cup thingy? And the quiver should deffinetly be at the hip, and no way in hell that's a compound bow. I just hope that they don't do the same stupid thing as before where they don't defferitiate between the bows.
It's ok, and could be worse, and shouldn't be that hard to fix.
And shouldn't they be wearing pants? I'd think it'd get kinda... uncomfortable in a skirt.

[shingenmitch2]

Overall decent. I guess they are combining the Scythians with the Sarmatians. I'm kind of :-/ on that.

Cantab - circle is a tremendous plus.

The breast-cups are Xena warrior princess-esque. My guess is they were added because from a distance this unit would otherwise look like a man.

The hat could use some work but is liveable. Some flair to the horse trapping would be nice, and yes the recurve bow & gorytos.

Anyone one concerned about that "hidden" steppe city reference? Hope there isn't some mythic city sitting in the Ukraine on the RTW map.

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 09 2004,11:03)]@Aymar: Founds of arrowheads are very common in the female kurgans, but not swords or lances http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif
No? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif My mistake then... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-oops.gif

I bow to your superior knowledge. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

I'm still waiting for the naked screaming women...ok not http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

Women in war during antiquity was not uncommon,the Palmyrans(Tadmur,in modern day Jordan)used Women Cavalry.

So i'm guessing,this unit is ok so far...

[Omegamann]

Yea right about the skirt,
funny thing i didnt nitce while rotation that the girl sits on the horse in a quite compromising position... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Maybe CA means to get the fanboys to this game that are otherwise playing namcos beach volleyball...
I mean CA shod that you can zoom in right into the action http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

OK seriously, all amazons in greek vase art that I have seen are depicted as wearing trousers, and I dont think taht warrior women fighting from horseback would wear skirts and golden bras
I also think that scythts would normaly wear boots (even pointed ones i think) instead of greaves and sandals

Good remark on the recurve bow & gorytos.
I dont think that it would take to many resources to make the horse and rider somewhat more colorfull
BTW. the discussion on historical accuracy concerning the myth of amazons/female horse archers mutilating their right breasts is a heated topic in miniature wargame forums.

And you have to ask CA why she would mutilate her breast and then wear this C-Cup Golden Bra??

[Hurin_Rules]

Faisal, would you happen to have a reference for women as cavalry amongst the Palmyrans? I've always been interested in trying to separate fact from fiction on the issue of female warriors. You're not referring to Queen Zenobia are you?

I don't mind the unit. As many have noted, there are a number of grave finds where women have been buried with bows, and there is also some evidence that Scythian women were trained to fight. It would be a perfect combination to put women, lighter than men, on horses and use them as archers. What male cavalry could catch them?

[Basileus]

Looks fairly good, i dont the history about the scythians though..propably a fast horse cav which i always like to use heh

[alman9898]

Remember, this unit model might be a tad bit out of date -- just like the Parthian Cataphract was. So some things might've been corrected. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (alman9898 @ July 09 2004,14:31)]Remember, this unit model might be a tad bit out of date -- just like the Parthian Cataphract was. So some things might've been corrected. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
exactly.
but the bow looks a bit wrong but it's all right not the usual frankinstein power tool of the latter day CA creations......(drones on until u all die) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Leet Eriksson]

Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ July 09 2004,13:54)]Faisal, would you happen to have a reference for women as cavalry amongst the Palmyrans? I've always been interested in trying to separate fact from fiction on the issue of female warriors. You're not referring to Queen Zenobia are you?
No solid references,only a few books in arabic,mainly on queen Zenobia actually,but mentions about female warriors,also it was guessing on my part becuase i recieved a statuette from a syrian museum as a gift,titled Warrior from Palmyra(Muhariba min Tadmur)wich had a female warrior on a horse holding a lance(clearily not queen zenobia,when fighting the romans i beleive she was on camel with a tower mounted,i beleive it was used as her personal transport).

[Lil' Timmy]

just curious.. would the scythian women have fought as a separate unit from male horsemen?

[Mouzafphaerre]

-
As I aint no Scythian history expert, all I have to say is hell yeah, the horses are no more aardvarks http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
_

[alman9898]

we now know that at least 3 Scythian units exist (axemen, noble archers [I remember seeing these], and noblewomen). could this mean that they will be playable? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Lil' Timmy @ July 09 2004,20:33)]just curious.. would the scythian women have fought as a separate unit from male horsemen?
IIRC, no. But miscellaneous units would be impossible or very hard to implement in RTW.

[MadKow]

It is probably old news, and thats why almost no one is commenting on that, but the most notable thing to me is the ability to ride in a circle. This is a seriously interesting game play feature, if i understand it correctly.

Of course, its nice to know they didn't just included women out of political correctness.
As for the breastplates, it helps identifying the unit as female. Otherwise it would be little more than a text description.

Oh and about the issues of colors, i may again be wrong, but for game play issues maybe they do have to have relatively simple color schemes, for the purpose of identification on the field? Just a thought...

(No fan-boy here... i just want the game out so that people can comment on what really matters: how good is it.)

[Lil' Timmy]

Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 10 2004,13:03)]
Quote[/b] (Lil' Timmy @ July 09 2004,20:33)]just curious.. would the scythian women have fought as a separate unit from male horsemen?
IIRC, no. But miscellaneous units would be impossible or very hard to implement in RTW.
really? i don't see why. you could just have a "horseman" unit that contains some percentage of one model, and the remainder of another model.. that may be difficult for a modder to do, but i'm sure it'd be a piece of cake for a team of professional coders/game designers. w/e, not that big a deal i guess.

[Oleander Ardens]

Omegamann: Good observation on the trousers, how could I miss that http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-blush.gif

Gameplaywise it seems a wellthought unit, very acccurate in it`s way to fight...

OA

[Dead Moroz]

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_scared.gif Meet the Frankenstein's wife http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-laugh.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

What's going on here? Are you all hypnotized by female nature of this unit? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-gorgeous.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy.gif

It's one of the freakiest units in the game. Absolutely 100% fantasy http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

First, she looks not like Scythian/Sarmatian. But just like Xena from that stupid Hollywood serial.

Second and the main - forget about female units. I understand that you all wants to have a kind of naked female fanatics in the game (me too http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ). But there were no any female troops in ancient times.
Of cause some women took part in wars. But there were very small number of such women. I doubt they can even form a single squadron of that Female Archers.
I don't argue with the fact that nomad women were able to shoot bow and ride horse, etc. and in case of need they could fight along with men. So were the women of medieval and post-medieval nomadic (or semi-nomadic) nationalities. But did you ever hear about military women taking part in raids of Tartars, Kalmyks, Kazakhs, Circassians, etc.?
Yes, bows are common find in Scythian women's burials. But don't take all literally. All objects in burials have no material but sacral sense. That's why the finding of bow in woman's burial does not mean that woman was battle archer. The reason could be that bow was one of the symbols of king's power and "nobility" for Scythians. The other reason could be aspiration to supply dead person with all things he/she could ever need in other life. Etc., etc., etc.

[Oleander Ardens]

@Dead Moroz: reading carefully through our comments you will see that we are well aware that certain features are non Scythian.

I think that
a) the findings are, even when you consider them of sacral nature, coupled with
b) the long, still ongoing traditon of female archery and
c) the various reports of fighting female warriors
point all neatly towards the existence of women which fought with their men.

The "creation" of such female units by CA is therefor IMHO understundable.

Cheers

OA

[Oleander Ardens]

BTW I strongly suspect that CA will already work on a expansion on Attila. This combination of bowcase and quiver was used by the waves of non-indoiranian nomadic tribes..

OA

[Dead Moroz]

@Oleander Ardens

All that "various reports of fighting female warriors" were caused by stories of Herodotus. But Herodotus' book was a kind of Hollywood movie for his time. He did know well about Greeks and surrounding nations but his info about far tribes was mostly a mix of rumors and legends.

Just think logically Do you also believe in gryphons and one-eyed men which Herodotus and other ancient authors wrote about? There was just facts received indirectly from men who received them indirectly from men who received them indirectly, etc. So that facts (for example, tribal tattoo of fantastic gryphon-like creature of "Scythians" living in Altai) became absolutely fantastic legends (about gryphons living in far country).



If Slavs were in RTW CA definitely would make battle bears for them.

[CBR]

AFAIK Herodotus claimed that Scythian women stayed at home, describing how the Amazons couldnt accept the Scythian customs when Scythian men wanted to marry them.

Burials have been found where some female skeleton remains suggests they did ride horses a lot, as well as some had died from arrow wounds.

Just because later cultures didnt use women in war doesnt mean earlier cultures didnt. The social status of women have varied a lot through times and cultures.

Smaller tribes might have seen it essential for survival to have women fight with the men. The Scythians were afterall not a long lasting tribe.


CBR

[Nelson]

When you're looking to jack up the unit count, I suppose any tiny morsel of evidence AT ALL is justification enough. I didn't expect female combat units, though. Hell, Molly Pitcher was on the field at Monmouth in 1778 taking water to her husband's battery. That would hardly excuse female artillery units in a game about the War for Independence.

Oh well. As CA has said over and over, it's a game not a simulation. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif

[Hurin_Rules]

Quote[/b] (Dead Moroz @ July 12 2004,06:38)]All that "various reports of fighting female warriors" were caused by stories of Herodotus...
Just think logically
Ok. Women are currently serving in combat in many western armed forces. Logically, we can conclude that they are perfectly capable of participating in war. Why do you assume they cannot?

[Dead Moroz]

Quote[/b] (CBR @ July 12 2004,17:16)]Smaller tribes might have seen it essential for survival to have women fight with the men. The Scythians were afterall not a long lasting tribe.

Scythians were not a small short lasting tribe. They covered huge territory in modern Ukraine and Russia. Only in Black Sea region they lived for at least 500 years (don't want to offend anybody but have to say that some modern countries accepted as standard of state have much shorter history). Scythians were big stable community with no need to use women in combat because of lack of male warriors.


Quote[/b] (Nelson @ July 12 2004,17:51)]Oh well. As CA has said over and over, it's a game not a simulation.

I know we cannot change something in forthcoming release of RTW. I just want to point out this thing for future mods.


Quote[/b] (Hurin_Rules @ July 12 2004,21:14)]Ok. Women are currently serving in combat in many western armed forces. Logically, we can conclude that they are perfectly capable of participating in war. Why do you assume they cannot?

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-toff.gif Because women are the beautifulest thing in our life. They are not assigned for all that blood, shit, sorrow, horror and dirt of war. It's not a matter of political correctness or feminism. It's just a matter of common sense. Women are not created for war. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[shingenmitch2]

I won't second Dead's reasoning on women.

But he is correct that women as a group, and that's what is required for units of hundreds or thousands (not individuals here and there), don't withstand the physical rigors of hand to hand combat very well. As a whole, their physical frames and musculature just isn't there. That is why historically they haven't participated in war fighting. It is more than mere sexism that has kept women out of combat for thousands of years. (It is also why men's and women's sport at the highest levels is still kept segregated.)

Women do not serve in frontline combat roles in the US Army and USMC for a reason. Even the physical standards have been lessened for them to be able to participate in the armed forces. The reason they can serve now at all, is that many jobs don't require the physcial strength and stamina that hand-fighting requires. (Truck driver, communications expert, pilot, etc.) That is not to say women can't fire a rifle when they need to, but there are ample examples of front line units with women performing below those of all male counter parts. Ex. A USMC all male maitenance Btn. was surrounded north of Kuwait in 1990, they held off a division size unit for over a day until they received reinforcement. A similar event happened to a mixed army maintenance Btn. last year in Iraq, with the result that it was wiped out. There is also a high drop-out rate of women from their units because of --- pregnancy. Which would be even more of a problem in the ancient world.

---------------------
AFAIK Scythian women didn't participate in combat. Sarmatian women, however, were supposed to have. The proportion of them that actually fought I do not know, but it is fair to say that their role would have been limited to that of light archer cav, an area where their size/strength would not have been a disadvantage.

[Steppe Merc]

Perhaps they have decided to blend the Scyths and the Sarmatians for some bizarre reason? SO far theirs been three Scyth units, and no Sarmatians... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif Any women warriors would certaintly not look like this, but I belivie that there could be a unit of light horse archers of women (since we can't have mixed units).

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Lil' Timmy @ July 10 2004,19:52)]
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 10 2004,13:03)]
Quote[/b] (Lil' Timmy @ July 09 2004,20:33)]just curious.. would the scythian women have fought as a separate unit from male horsemen?
IIRC, no. But miscellaneous units would be impossible or very hard to implement in RTW.
really? i don't see why. you could just have a "horseman" unit that contains some percentage of one model, and the remainder of another model.. that may be difficult for a modder to do, but i'm sure it'd be a piece of cake for a team of professional coders/game designers. w/e, not that big a deal i guess.
Then why haven't they done it? http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (Dead Moroz @ July 12 2004,06:38)]@Oleander Ardens

All that "various reports of fighting female warriors" were caused by stories of Herodotus. But Herodotus' book was a kind of Hollywood movie for his time. He did know well about Greeks and surrounding nations but his info about far tribes was mostly a mix of rumors and legends.

Just think logically Do you also believe in gryphons and one-eyed men which Herodotus and other ancient authors wrote about? There was just facts received indirectly from men who received them indirectly from men who received them indirectly, etc. So that facts (for example, tribal tattoo of fantastic gryphon-like creature of "Scythians" living in Altai) became absolutely fantastic legends (about gryphons living in far country).
Are you refering to Herodotus or Homer? They aren't quite the same thing...

[Aymar de Bois Mauri]

Quote[/b] (shingenmitch2 @ July 12 2004,14:56)]AFAIK Scythian women didn't participate in combat. Sarmatian women, however, were supposed to have. The proportion of them that actually fought I do not know, but it is fair to say that their role would have been limited to that of light archer cav, an area where their size/strength would not have been a disadvantage.
Sorry, but I think Dead Moroz is incorrect. IIRC, many historians agree that some Scythian women fought in battles. So, it is not just the case of the Sarmatians. I might be wrong, but I'm sure I've read that information in this book (I haven't bought it yet, unfortunatelly):

The Scythians 700-300BC (http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0850454786/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-9585256-2827861#reader-link)

I even recall, in this book, a drawing that shows three Scythian horsemen raiding an enemy encampment, being one of them a female. It is refered in the picture legend also.

[Steppe Merc]

They have a similar pic in the book about the Sarmatians. It has a woman (dressed like a man, in plain clothes, no armor), equipped as a horse archer with a lasso, fighting alongside a man. The pic was dated to around 5-4 BC, but would very likely still be applicable in RTW.

[Hurin_Rules]

I didn't mean to imply that Scythian women fought as all-female groups, but I do believe there is ample evidence that some of them fought as individuals alongside the men, just as women occasionally did during the crusades, in the Red Army during WWII, in the British Army in the 19th century, and in modern-day armies.

[shingenmitch2]

Aymer,
quite right, I forgot about that one... I have both that and the Sarmatian book. Excellent reads. When I saw that pic in my mind, I was thinking it was part of the Sarmatian book.

Hurin,
Agreed, they would join in mixed units (light cav I suspect). I guess I was reacting to the statement "every bit as capable" which on the whole I don't believe to be true, even though there are individual women who are.