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Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-09-2004, 18:14
This, certainly, won't be the final version for the RTW MOD, but here is the compilation of Iberian info that I made for Europa Barbarorum a few months ago. It's still unchanged.


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I’ve compiled some good info that will shed some light on the Iberian (Lusitanian and Celtiberian) issue.

This post starts with a small historical analysis on Celts (the greatest cultural influence throughtout Europe before and during the early stages of Roman conquest), then with a small set of characteristics concerning the Iberian Peninsula and their populations. It closes with a brief account of the Iberian Peninsula wars until Roman rule was installed, and finishes with a description of the units that should more closelly relate to historical data.



The Celts

“The warrior class

Most primitive societies had a warrior class: both the early Greeks and the Romans did. The Celts were no exception. Their warriors were drawn from what we would describe as the middle and upper class. The warrior class did the actual fighting: the free poor served as chariot drivers. The Celt was a warrior in the heroic sense. Everything had to be larger than life. He lived for war. His glorification of bravery often led him to recklessness. Part of a warriors ritual was to boast of his victories, and fighting between warriors was an important part of life.

Armour and weapons
Most Celts scorned the use of armour and before about 300 B.C. preferred to fight naked. Some Celtic tribes still fought naked at the battle of Telamon in 225 B.C. The Celt was renowned as a swords-man but he also used javelins and spears. Two spears which were found at La Tene in Switzerland were nearly 2.5m long. His only protection was his large shield which was usually oval. The suggestion that the Celt wore heavy bracelets in battle has to be questioned, as it is hard to understand how they would stay on his arm whilst he wielded his sword. Dionysius tells us that in battle the Celts whirled their swords above their heads, slashing the air from side to side, then struck downwards at their enemies as if chopping wood. It was this use of the sword that so terrified their enemies. The Celts did not fight in a rabble as is so often supposed. They were organized in companies. This can be proved by their use of standards.
Headhunters
The Celt was a head-hunter. In battle he would cut off the head of his fallen enemy and often hang it from his horse's neck. After battle he would display the severed head at the entrance to his temple. The severed head is a constant theme in Celtic art. At the battle of Beneventumin 214 B.C. the Roman general Gracchus had to order his army of freed slaves (presumably Celts) to stop collecting heads and get on with the fighting. After a battle the Celts would often dedicate their enemies weapons to the gods and throw them into a river or lake. The hundreds of weapons that have been dredged from the Lake of Neuchatel at La Tene were such offerings. In fact the site at La Tene has revealed so many Celtic artifacts that its name has been given to the whole Celtic culture.
The chiefs
The chiefs and the wealthiest Celts often did wear armour particularly when they came into contact with the Greeks and Romans. They often adopted items of Greek or Roman armour. A pair of greaves were found in the chieftain's grave at Ciumesti. Several graves have been found in Northern Italy which contain Etruscan armour and Celtic weapons. Before a battle the chiefs would ride out, in front of the army clashing their weapons on their shields, proclaiming their great deeds and challenging the enemy to single combat. Caesar describes the British as dressed in skins (meaning leather) and decorated with woad, a blue dye. Some tattooed skin from a grave of this period suggests that the Britons were tattooed in blue.“
Peter Connolly



The Celtiberians and the Lusitanians

Hispania

The Iberian Peninsula comprises an elevated central plateau whose climate is continental and whose sparse rainfall makes it suitable for pasturage rather than agriculture. On the north and south are high mountains, forested in antiquity—the Pyrenees and Sierra Nevada, respectively. Lower interior mountains border fertile river valleys—Baetis (Guadalquivir) and Ebro—that lead down to fertile coastal plains. Hispanic agriculture was noted for its cereals, wines, and especially olive oil, while flax was a specialty of the Ebro Valley. Hispania's mountains were particularly abundant in minerals—copper, iron, and, in the Sierra Morena, prodigious amounts of silver. There were good harbors on the southern coast at Gades and Carthago Nova. Celtiberians inhabited the north-central plateau, to the west were Lusitanians, and throughout the rest of the peninsula lived some 20 other independent peoples. (For the other area of the empire—the Balkan Peninsula, Asia Minor, Syria, and North Africa.


Hispania and the Roman conquest

Civilization in the Iberian Peninsula dates back to the Stone Age. The Basques may be descended from the prehistoric humans whose art has been preserved in the caves at Altamira. They antedated the Iberians, who mixed with Celtic invaders at an early period. Because of its mineral and agricultural wealth and its position guarding the Strait of Gibraltar, Hispania was known to the Mediterranean peoples from very early times. The Phoenicians passed through the strait and established (9th cent. B.C.) colonies in Andalusia, notably at Cádiz and Tartessus (possibly the biblical Tarshish). Later the Carthaginians settled on the east coast and in the Balearic Islands, where Greek colonies also sprang up. In the 3d cent. B.C., the Carthaginians under Hamilcar Barca began to conquer most of the Iberian Peninsula and the Balearics and established Cartagena as capital.
The Roman victory over Hannibal in the second of the Punic Wars (218–201 B.C.) resulted in the expulsion of the Carthaginians. The Romans conquered E and S Hispania, but met strong resistance elsewhere, notably in the north. The fall (133 B.C.) of Numantia marked the end of organized resistance, and by the 1st cent. A.D. Roman control was virtually complete. Except for the Basques, the Iberian population became thoroughly romanized, perhaps more so than any subject population. Roman rule brought political unity, law, and economic prosperity.


Numantia

Ancient settlement, Hispania, near the Durius (now Douro) River and north of modern Soria. Numantia played a central role in the Celt-Iberian resistance to Roman conquest. Its inhabitants withstood repeated Roman attacks from the time of Cato the Elder’s campaign (195 B.C.) until Scipio Aemilianus finally took the city in 133 B.C., after an eight-month blockade, thus completing the conquest of Hispania. Archaeologists have uncovered the remains of Roman camps and evidence of settlement dating back to the Bronze Age.


Lusitania

Roman province in the Iberian Peninsula. As constituted (c.A.D. 5) by Augustus it included all of modern central Portugal as well as much of W Hispania. The province took its name from the Lusitani, a group of warlike tribes who, despite defeats, resisted Roman domination until their great leader, Viriatus, was killed (139 B.C.) by treachery. In the 1st cent. B.C. they joined in supporting Sertorius, who set up an independent state in Hispania. The old identification of Portugal with Lusitania and of the ancestors of the Portuguese with the Lusitanians (hence Camões’s great epic was entitled Os Lusíadas) is now largely ignored, but the creation of Lusitania may have had a faint echoing effect in the setting up of the separate kingdom of Portugal many centuries later.


Viriatus

d. 139 B.C., leader of the Lusitani (see Lusitania). One of the survivors of the massacre of the Lusitani by the Roman praetor Servius Sulpicius Galba, Viriatus rose as a popular leader and persuaded his countrymen to resist Roman rule. He gathered an army and in 147 B.C. defeated the Romans. During the next two years he established control over a considerable area. One Roman defeat followed another. The victories of Viriatus encouraged the Celtiberians to renew their resistance to Rome. The senate then sent an army under Fabius Maximus Servilianus, which Viritus succeeded in trapping. Instead of destroying this army, he concluded a peace and allowed the Romans to leave. For this act of clemency he was declared a friend of Rome by the senate. In 139, however, the successor of Servilianus, Servilius Caepio, with the tacit consent of the senate, renewed the war. Viriatus, probably swayed by his countrymen, who were weary of the war, opened negotiations with Caepio, who brought the war to an end by bribing Viriatus’ emissaries to kill him. His rule collapsed after his assassination.

Bartleby’s Encyclopedia of World History, Sixth Edition 2001



“ROME AND HISPANIA.-THE NUMANTINE WAR (206-133)
Africanus the elder left Hispania in 206. After a provincial government of nine years (206-197), the country was divided into two provinces, separated by the IBÉRUS (Ebro), and each province was assigned to a praetor. It was some time, however, before Hispania was really brought into a state of complete peace and order. The mountains and forests were a formidable obstacle to the Roman legions, and favored guerilla warfare, which makes conquest slow and laborious.
The most warlike of the Hispanic tribes was the CELTIBÉRI, who occupied the interior of the peninsula. They were always uncertain and intractable, continually breaking out into revolt. In 195, Cato the elder put down a rebellion led by them. He established more firmly the Roman power east of the Ibérus. He disarmed the inhabitants of this part of Hispania, and compelled all from the Pyrenees to the Guadalquivir to pull down their fortifications.
Still the smouldering fires of rebellion were not extinguished, for, sixteen years later (179), we find TIBERIUS SEMPRONIUS GRACCHUS, the father of the famous Gracchi, as Governor of Hispania, fighting the troublesome Celtibéri. He captured over one hundred of their towns, but tempered his victories with moderate measures, showing himself greater in peace than in war. He granted to the poorer classes lands on favorable conditions, and did much to produce contentment among the natives. But farther west, in the valleys of the Douro and Tagus, and in Lusitania (Portugal), there seems to have been constant warfare.
In 154, MUMMIUS, the same who eight years later sacked Corinth, was Governor of Farther Hispania. His defeat by the Lusitanians encouraged the Celtibéri to revolt again, and there followed another defeat, with a massacre of many Roman citizens. Two years later (152), CLAUDIUS MARCELLUS avenged these losses, founded Corduba, and governed the country humanely. His successors, LUCIUS LUCULLUS and SERVIUS GALBA, were so cruel and grasping as to drive the Lusitanians into another open rebellion, headed by VIRIÁTHUS, a bold and daring bandit. During seven years (147-140) he defeated again and again the armies sent against him. The Celtibéri joined his standards, and Hispania seemed likely to slip from the Romans. The only check to these successes was during the command of METELLUS MACEDONICUS (143); when he was recalled, matters returned to their former condition.
In 140, the Consul Mancínus was obliged to capitulate, and, to save himself and his army, made a treaty which the Senate refused to sanction.
Viriáthus was finally (139) assassinated by persons hired by the Consul Caepio; his people were then subdued, and the government was ably conducted (138) by DECIMUS JUNIUS BRUTUS.
THE NUMANTINE WAR (143-133).
The Celtibéri, however, were still in arms. The strong city of NUMANTIA, the capital of one of their tribes, witnessed more than one defeat of a Roman Consul before its walls (141-140). Finally Rome sent out her best general, Africanus the younger.
After devoting several months to the disciplining of his troops, he began (134) a regular siege of the place. It was defended with the utmost bravery and tenacity, until, forced by the last extreme of famine, it surrendered (133). The inhabitants were sold as slaves, and the town was levelled to the ground. The victor was honored with the title of NUMANTÍNUS.
The fall of Numantia gave Rome a hold upon the interior of Hispania, which was never lost. The country now, with the exception of its northern coast, was nominally Roman territory. Several towns were established with Latin municipal rights _(municipia)_, and, on the whole, order was maintained. Along the coast of the Mediterranean there sprang up many thriving and populous towns, which became centres of civilization to the neighboring districts, and were treated by Rome rather as allies than as subjects. Some of them were allowed to coin the silver money of Rome. The civilizing process, due to Roman influence, went on rapidly in these parts, while the interior remained in barbarism.
In 105 the peninsula was overrun by the Cimbri, a barbarous race from the north. The country was ravaged, but finally saved by the brave Celtibéri, who forced the invaders back into Gaul.”
ROBERT F. PENNELL, The History Net – Ancient History


Lusitania and the Lusitanians:

“To the north of river Tagus we find Lusitania, the land of the greatest of Iberian tribes, that the Romans fought for a long time. To the south, Lusitania is bounded by the river Tagus: to the west by the ocean; to the east by the Carpetani, Vettoni, Vaccei; and to the North, by the Gallaeci, all of them very well known tribes. As for other tribes, they need not be mentioned, because they are small and of no importance. Contrary to what happens today, the Gallaeci were also called Lusitanni by some. To the east, the Gallaeci’s territory is confined by the Asturian’s and Celtiberian’s. The others are only confined by the Celtiberian’s territory. The length of Lusitania is of 3000 stadiums, being the width much smaller, that is the distance between the easternborder and the coast in the opposite side. The eastern part of Lusitania is high and arid, but the low regions are flat until they reach the sea, with the exception of some low mountain ranges(…).

The country of which we speak (Lusitania), is fertile and crossed by small and large rivers, all with their springs in the east and flowing paralel to the river Tagus. They are navigable in the greatest extent of their length and contain a great quantity of auriferous sand. After Tagus, the most important rivers are Mundas, only navigable in a short strech, and Vacua. After these, the Douro, coming from afar, crosses Numantia and many villages of Celtiberians and Vaccei, and it’s navigable by great ships for 800 stadiums. “

Strabo of Amasya (Pontus), Greek historian, 63 BC - 24 AD


“The Lusitanians are the strongest amongst Iberians; to war, they carry very small shields, made out of Esparto (a natural hard vegetable fiber), with which can easely defend their bodies. During battle they wield it skilfully, moving it from one side to the other of their bodies, defending themselves with hability from every blow that falls upon them. They also use spears, entirely made of iron with harpoon-shaped tips, and ware helms and a sword very similar to the Celtiberians; they trow their spears with precision and to a great distance, very frequently causing grevious wounds. They are swift while moving and fast while running, so they flee and chase quickly (…). With these light armours, being able to run very fast and being very sharp-minded, they can only be defeated with difficulty. They consider the rocks and ranges their homeland and so seek refuge in them, because they are impracticable to large and heavy armies. So, because of that, the Romans, who have organized countless expeditions against them, although being able to counter their daring, have not, dispite of their commitment, been able to end their pillaging.”

Diodorus Siculus of Sicily, Sicilian historian, 80 BC - 20 AD


“They say that the Lusitanians are skilled in ambushes and chasses, swift, quick and sthealthy; they wield small shields two feet wide and concave in their outside, being manouvered with the help of two straps around the neck, and, so it seems, without grips. Beyond that they use daggers or knifes. Most of them wears linen armours and leather caps, very few others mail armours and three feathered helms. Some infantrymen also use greeves, and each of them carries several short spears; some of them with bronze tips.”

Strabo of Amasya (Pontus), Greek historian, 63 BC - 24 AD



It was somewhat difficult (to say the least) to organize pertinent information about weaponery and military organization among Celtiberian and Lusitanian tribes. That was particulary evident with Lusitanians, due to the relative lack of historical records about them. Celtiberian tribes are more documented, due to their earlier contact with Carthaginians and Romans. Another difficult aspect we must take into consideration is the fact that, like many other “barbarians”, there wasn’t a standardization in equipment among Iberian soldiers. Once again, this is even more obvious when dealing with Lusitanians. Personal wealth, weapon or armour preference, as well as the will for warriors to distiguish themselves from others, were deciding factors to increase variability and confusion. All of this makes the work of an EB researcher a more ambiguous and frustating task. The unit, armour and weapon standardization of a TotalWar game doesn’t suit historical precision (or imprecision should we say https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif ). What this means is that, amongst the great variability of equipment among warriors, some aproximations must be done for the sake of simplicity. So, due to the well known roots of social organization among Celtic tribes, we can infer what type of military structure was used among the Iberian Peninsula’s armies. Although small cultural diferences existed between Lusitanian and Celtiberian tribes, their war processes were somewhat different. The Celtiberians relied in a more organized type of warfare. They used effective spear and sword infantry units (both recruited by Hannibal) as well as various types of cavalry. The Carthaginians rellied on them troughout their wars with Rome. They also rellied on the famous Belearic Slingers. Lusitanians on the other hand, due to the particular type of terrain they fought on and the enemies they faced, used more frequently light infantry (mostly javelin skirmishers) and light cavalry (mostly javelin skirmishers too), quite adapt to the type of ambush and guerrilla warfare they sucessfully adopted against the Romans.

I tried not to allow innacurate or “imaginative” info to deviate the search for historical accurate data. Bare in mind that, although some of my conclusions might be viewed as innacurate, due to the variety of weapons, armours and terrains, they are, IMHO, perfectely feasible and based on facts, unlike “imaginative” work like the now famous Iberian Bull Warrior helmet… https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

A brief description of the units that are the most accurate possible, relating to the scarcity of records and the variability of unit composition, follows. I decided not to fall in temptation and use every available weapon, armour or equipment to “create” units, but instead to relate the most probable look and habilities of historical descripted ones. The text is organized to correspond to a game description.

You can find graphical information here:

The Celts (http://www.gallica.co.uk/celts/war2.htm)

Lusitanian Warriors (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_01.asp)

Lusitanian Weapons (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_02.asp)

Lusitanian Clothing & Tactics (http://www.viriatus.com/Lusitanos_03.asp)

Los Iberos (http://www.historialago.com/leg_iberos.htm)

Ancient Hispanic Armies (http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_52_figure_1.htm)





Lusitanian Units (All bearded and with long hairs. All had boots made of intertwined wool and boar leather. All used a body-length wool cape.):


-Lusitanian Skirmishers (similar to Greek Peltasts or Spanish Javelinmen): Wearing the Sago (a knee-high linen or wool tunic), without helmet or chest protection, these sheperds are ocasional warriors, recruited from the poorest of the Lusitanian population. They use the Sude (a completelly wooden javelin hardned by fire, with sharped wooden tips in both ends). When these are spent, only their Rhanda (knife with 20cm blade) and their speed can afford them some protection. As any light infantry, they are vulnerable to cavalry.

Armed with Sude.
Sude good against armour.
Very weak defense.
Poor morale.
Very fast.
Can hide in the open.


-Lusitanian Warband Infantry (Coetrati– the Romans called them this because of the Coetra – the small shield they used): Although not professional warriors, these men are socially wealthier and more confident than Lusitanian Skirmishers, as well as more used to war due to occasional fights with other tribes. They wear the Sago and the Cudo or Galea (an hard leather head protection, that only leaves the face and ears uncovered), these warriors make ideal skirmishers skilled in the use of their Tragula (a javelin with a very sharp blade and 2 opposing hooks, existing in varied sizes. The smaller ones are very effective against armour). They also wield a spear with a large barbed blade, allowing them to hold their own against cavalry. When their Tragula are spent, their Falcata (a double-curve single-edged sword) and Machoera (dagger - the Pugio was the Roman name for dagger) or Rhanda (knife with 20cm blade), can be used effectivelly to strike down unorganized foes, while the small 2 feet wide round shield (Coetra, Pelta or Peltra) they hold in their hands (with two leather straps around the neck), affords them some protection in hand-to-hand combat.

Armed with Tragula.
Tragula very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Good morale.
Fast.
Ambush capabilities.


-Lusitanian Guard (Ambacti): These men are of higher birth, forming the faithfull followers of Lusitanian chieftans and bound religiously by a promisse of loyalty - this made them protect their lord in battle up to the last man. They are used to war and so, are skilled and brave. Wearing full protection bronze helmets (with a crest of horse's mane) with the Bucula (bronze face mask) and the Perponto (a chest protection made of an intertwined mix of linen, thick wool and hard leather straps) over their Sago, as well as Ocrêas (hard leather greaves), these men are used to combat and have as their main weapons the Gesso (a small, very light, long-range javelin, effectivelly a dart, with a large double-edged leaf-shaped blade), the Falcata and the Coetra, as well as the Machoera or Rhanda. They are skilled, hardy and very competent in hand-to-hand combat, which makes them effective against the best troops the enemy has to offer.

Armed with Gesso.
Gesso good against armour (longer range than javelins).
Very good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.
Ambush capabilities.


-Lusitanian Cavalry (Mounted Ambacti): Although not a numerous unit of Lusitanian armies, these cavalrymen are fundamental as scouts and, most of all, as good skirmishers. As Ambacti, these men are of higher birth, forming the faithfull followers of Lusitanian chieftans and bound religiously by a promisse of loyalty - this made them protect their lord in battle up to the last man. However, they are the wealthier amongst the population, allowing them to use and maintain horses. Lusitanian horses are known for their agility and speed (Romans say that the Lusitanian mares have been fecundated by the wind). These warriors are used to war and so, motivated. They wear full protection bronze helmets (with a crest of horse's mane) with the Bucula (bronze face mask), the Perponto over their Sago, and Ocrêas. They use as their main weapons the Gesso, the Falcata and the Coetra. They also carry the Machoera or Rhanda. They are courageous and competent, but as with any medium cavalry, should use their skirmishing hability and speed in combat to avoid spear infantry.

Armed with Gesso.
Gesso good against armour (longer range than javelins).
Good charge.
Good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.
Fast (cav speed).




Celtiberian Units (All clean-shaven and wearing leather sandals):


-Celtiberian Slingers (the Balearic Slingers were the most famous of them): Wearing a short linen tunic, without helmet or chest protection, these warriors are very effective when using their slings. Fast, due to their light equipment, and with longer range than javelin equipped troops, they are ideal harassers of enemy heavy infantry. Their Falcata and Machoera can be used effectivelly to strike down unorganized foes, while the small 2 feet wide round shield Coetra, affords some protection in hand-to-hand combat. As any light infantry, they are vulnerable to cavalry.

Armed with slings (with stone projectiles).
Projectiles good against armour.
Weak defense.
Fast.


-Celtiberian Warriors: These occasional warriors make effective swordsmen. The constant warring amongst tribes makes them rugged and hardy. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair) and round bronze breastplates above their short linen tunic. The Falcata and the Coetra can be very effective in hand-to-hand combat. The Machoera is also used as a last ditch defense. Although not professionals, they are competent in hand-to-hand combat.

Good attack.


-Celtiberian Light Infantry: These men are hardned warriors and constitute the bulk of Celtiberian armies. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair) and round bronze breastplates above their short linen tunic. Their main weapons are the spear and the Solifera (a full-metal heavy javelin). The characteristic Gallic oval shield, is used for protection. They use it in conjunction with the sword the Romans called Gladius Hispaniensis (and would later adopt) for close combat. They fight in close, supported formation, although not in great units like the Greek Phalanx. These close formations, their spears and large shields, make them the reliable mainstay of Celtiberian armies.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Very good attack.
Good defense.
Good morale.


-Celtiberian Heavy Infantry: These men are hand picked warriors, choosen among the bravest and most skilled men of the population. Proud, skilled and bold, they are a fearfull sight for any enemy. Wearing partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a crest), scale armour woven to hard leather, bronze forearm protections and bronze Ocrêas, these men have as their main weapons the spear, the Solifera (a full-metal heavy javelin) and the Gladius Hispaniensis. The characteristic Gallic oval shield, is used for protection and they also carry the Machoera. They fight in close, supported formation, although not in great units like the Greek Phalanx. Being well armoured, using tight formations and being superbly skilled and confident, they form the fierce elite units of Celtiberian armies.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Defend well vs cavalry.
Excelent attack.
Very good defense.
Very good morale.


-Celtiberian Light Cavalry: Celtiberian armies are known for their superb infantry, not by their cavalry. However, this is not due to the fact that their cavalry is of poor quality. These cavalrymen make good scouts, but also good skirmishers. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a small rear orifice for the hair), and a short linen tunic, without chest protection. Their weapons are the Solifera, the Falcata and the Coetra. Although competent, as with any light cavalry, they should use their skirmishing hability and speed in combat to avoid spear infantry.

Armed with Solifera.
Solifera very good against armour.
Good charge.
Fast (cav speed).


-Celtiberian Nobles: These men form the highest social class among Celtiberians. They are wealthier and as such, well equipped. They are also skilled and brave horsemen. These cavalrymen are mainly used as a shock force and, although not effective against organized heavy infantry, they are superb against lighter infantry troops, as well as against enemy light cavalry. They wear partial protection bronze helmets (face uncovered and with a crest), scale armour woven to hard leather, bronze forearm protections and bronze Ocrêas. Their main weapon is the lance. They also use the Falcata and the Coetra. They also carry the Machoera. They are courageous and skilled, but as any cavalry, should use their speed to escape the grasp of spear infantry.

Very good charge.
Good attack.
Good defense.
Very good morale.

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Any comments will be apreciated... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Alexander the Pretty Good
07-09-2004, 18:52
Looks great (to an uninformed barbarian, that is) http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Great work Aymar de Bois Mauri I can't wait for the RTW 'Corrections MOD'. Good reading http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif

Oleander Ardens
07-09-2004, 19:28
Quote[/b] ]I tried not to allow innacurate or “imaginative” info to deviate the search for historical accurate data. Bare in mind that, although some of my conclusions might be viewed as innacurate, due to the variety of weapons, armours and terrains, they are, IMHO, perfectely feasible and based on facts, unlike “imaginative” work like the now famous Iberian Bull Warrior helmet…

A brief description of the units that are the most accurate possible, relating to the scarcity of records and the variability of unit composition, follows. I decided not to fall in temptation and use every available weapon, armour or equipment to “create” units, but instead to relate the most probable look and habilities of historical descripted ones. The text is organized to correspond to a game description.


Very wise words. When I faced the task "Raetic units" I had to rely practically only on the rich findings and had only a single source (Horaz) about specific Raetic weapons.
Thanks to god the Alpine rocks are often polished by the force of the glaciers and rockcarvings reveal much. I "inspired" my units by this pictures and could "create" thanks to a in depth analyze of the Raetic society and culture the sets of Units posted by me...


Your units should really give the Celtiberians and the Lusitanii their welldeserved unique look. Shall the RTW roman legion see once again the wrath and accurate clothing of their feared enemys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

Cheers

OA

Steppe Merc
07-09-2004, 20:06
Great job Keep it up

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-09-2004, 20:37
Thanks everyone for your comments http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif

Oleander Ardens:

Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 09 2004,13:28)]
Quote[/b] ]I tried not to allow innacurate or “imaginative” info to deviate the search for historical accurate data. Bare in mind that, although some of my conclusions might be viewed as innacurate, due to the variety of weapons, armours and terrains, they are, IMHO, perfectely feasible and based on facts, unlike “imaginative” work like the now famous Iberian Bull Warrior helmet…

A brief description of the units that are the most accurate possible, relating to the scarcity of records and the variability of unit composition, follows. I decided not to fall in temptation and use every available weapon, armour or equipment to “create” units, but instead to relate the most probable look and habilities of historical descripted ones. The text is organized to correspond to a game description.
Very wise words. When I faced the task "Raetic units" I had to rely practically only on the rich findings and had only a single source (Horaz) about specific Raetic weapons.
Thanks to god the Alpine rocks are often polished by the force of the glaciers and rockcarvings reveal much. I "inspired" my units by this pictures and could "create" thanks to a in depth analyze of the Raetic society and culture the sets of Units posted by me...
I had several sources, but some characteristics, like culture, military and social organization, as well as religion, were quite elusive.

Fortunatelly, in the later part of the work, I bought a very good book about Lusitanians (and Viriato), that helped a lot in explaining Tactics and Strategics used against the Romans, as well as Culture and Social organization. Some of that info will be added later.



Quote[/b] ]Your units should really give the Celtiberians and the Lusitanii their welldeserved unique look. Shall the RTW roman legion see once again the wrath and accurate clothing of their feared enemys http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
Rest assured. If I decide to buy RTW, dispite all it's latest problems, it will be to MOD the game until it is correct. Besides Historical info, I am willing to help in the technical part, specially 3d unit modelling and skinning. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-thumbsup.gif

Oleander Ardens
07-10-2004, 12:32
I think that the mod will have a bright future; At least the historical part is going well, with a good part of faction already dealt with.

The Lusitanii sound very good, I would love to guide this guys as the suit my fighting style; Fast and with deadly javelins..

BTW did you know that also the Ligurii used darts similar to the Gesso?

Cheers

OA

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-10-2004, 18:54
Quote[/b] (Oleander Ardens @ July 10 2004,06:32)]I think that the mod will have a bright future; At least the historical part is going well, with a good part of faction already dealt with.
We must keep pushing for it. The harder work is still ahead of us...



Quote[/b] ]The Lusitanii sound very good, I would love to guide this guys as they suit my fighting style; Fast and with deadly javelins...

BTW did you know that also the Ligurii used darts similar to the Gesso?
Nope. But later, the Irish tribsmen also used darts, right?

As for the Lusitanii, they used dozens of different weapons besides the previously mentioned, from clubs, scythes, spears&javelins (several types - Soliferra, Sude, Sanión, Falarica, Tragula, Bidente, Tridente, even a type of harpoon) to slings. They also more rarely used a triangular-shaped double-edged longsword (about the size of the Celtic longsword).


BTW, I've edited the links to provide another link for the Lusitanians. Take into consideration that sometimes that page (www.viriatus.com) is unavailable.

MadKow
07-11-2004, 00:18
Hi,
My only comment (besides Great Work http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif on the history research) is that these units (and any that come into the mod, for that matter) seem to require some balancing...
Most of them show lots of good-great attributes that if compared to our present frame (which is MTW) would set them on the upper side of the scale, (like CMAA, Swabian swords, huscarles... those that tend to make the bulk of an Ultimate Army)... Iberia will be a very desirable place to hold, to say the least...

OK, this is a premature comment... as is anything regarding game play but you asked what we though http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif .

a_ver_est
07-12-2004, 11:58
Good job, perhaps a bit overpowered faction, most of your units have good or very good stats.

I am afraid about the Iberian faction in the game release. I think that it will be a fantasy one http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif

MadKow
07-12-2004, 14:33
I don't know how the Mod is being prepared, but Iberia does not have to be a Faction in my view. These units, however should be recruitable, buildable, bought, whatever, in Iberia.
They could work like Spanish Ginetes in M: TW or something...

As a faction they would be a bit like the Irish in VI but with some good cavalry on the mix. Maybe overpowered. Bur it all depends on how powerful are the other factions.

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-12-2004, 19:11
Do not worry, guys. Yes, the units are unbalanced, but I haven't really payed attention to stats. This data is rather premature. Gameplay balance will be considered after the Historical work ends and the programming starts. The only way to polish gameplay balance is with the other work already done and the 3d battle engine working. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wink.gif

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-12-2004, 19:14
BTW, these units will only be available in certain parts of Iberia (Provincia Hispanica) and some should be mercenaires also.

biguth dickuth
07-13-2004, 01:46
Very nice work Aymar It seems you did a great deal of research.
The final balancing will indeed come through gameplay experience in the first tests of the mod.

Reading the poll results, though, i get a little dissapointed. About 1/4 of the voters prefers the Iberian Bullshit Warriors...
Sad... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-confused.gif

Steppe Merc
07-13-2004, 02:31
Quality over quantity mate http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

PSYCHO
07-13-2004, 03:13
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

BRILLIANT STUFF

Shorty
07-13-2004, 06:29
Quote[/b] (Aymar de Bois Mauri @ July 09 2004,12:14)]The Celt was a warrior in the heroic sense. Everything had to be larger than life. He lived for war. His glorification of bravery often led him to recklessness. Part of a warriors ritual was to boast of his victories, and fighting between warriors was an important part of life.

Armour and weapons
Most Celts scorned the use of armour and before about 300 B.C. preferred to fight naked. Some Celtic tribes still fought naked at the battle of Telamon in 225 B.C. The Celt was renowned as a swords-man but he also used javelins and spears. Two spears which were found at La Tene in Switzerland were nearly 2.5m long. His only protection was his large shield which was usually oval. The suggestion that the Celt wore heavy bracelets in battle has to be questioned, as it is hard to understand how they would stay on his arm whilst he wielded his sword. Dionysius tells us that in battle the Celts whirled their swords above their heads, slashing the air from side to side, then struck downwards at their enemies as if chopping wood. It was this use of the sword that so terrified their enemies. The Celts did not fight in a rabble as is so often supposed. They were organized in companies. This can be proved by their use of standards.
Headhunters
The Celt was a head-hunter. In battle he would cut off the head of his fallen enemy and often hang it from his horse's neck. After battle he would display the severed head at the entrance to his temple. The severed head is a constant theme in Celtic art. At the battle of Beneventumin 214 B.C. the Roman general Gracchus had to order his army of freed slaves (presumably Celts) to stop collecting heads and get on with the fighting. After a battle the Celts would often dedicate their enemies weapons to the gods and throw them into a river or lake. The hundreds of weapons that have been dredged from the Lake of Neuchatel at La Tene were such offerings. In fact the site at La Tene has revealed so many Celtic artifacts that its name has been given to the whole Celtic culture.
The chiefs
The chiefs and the wealthiest Celts often did wear armour particularly when they came into contact with the Greeks and Romans. They often adopted items of Greek or Roman armour. A pair of greaves were found in the chieftain's grave at Ciumesti. Several graves have been found in Northern Italy which contain Etruscan armour and Celtic weapons. Before a battle the chiefs would ride out, in front of the army clashing their weapons on their shields, proclaiming their great deeds and challenging the enemy to single combat. Caesar describes the British as dressed in skins (meaning leather) and decorated with woad, a blue dye. Some tattooed skin from a grave of this period suggests that the Britons were tattooed in blue.“
Peter Connolly
There are a few things I would like to add.

Many Celts fought naked due to religious reasons. It made them closer to nature and assured their rebirth in the other world if they died (as Celts believed that there was another world in the west, and when one died in this world he went to the other, and vice versa). This was also much less common than it's made out to be, but it's so well known because of the Roman fascination with the custom. By 300 bc Celts had mail armor and likely introduced it to the Romans. Celts also probably gave the idea for the scutum to the Romans (Celts were using large square shields before the Romans), and the testudo formation.

The Celts believed the soul was contained in the head, and they would preserve the heads of respected individuals, sometimes friends as well as foes. Preserved heads were valued possessions.

I tend to believe that historical accounts cannot be completely trusted, as many of them are only propaganda. For example, many quote Caesar as though he were an expert on Gauls, when he was the leader of an invading armor sent to systematically destroy them. It is from Roman propaganda that people today get many of their beliefs about the Celts as childish and wild people.

Also, I was just wondering what made you say, "Celtiberian Light Cavalry: Celtiberian armies are known for their superb infantry, not by their cavalry." I'm not an expert on the Celtiberians in particular, but I know that Celts tended to have excellent cavalry, as shown by the fact that they were often recruited as mercenaries by Rome and other nations.

I suggest the book The Celts: A History by Peter Berresford Ellis for an excellent overview of Celtic innovations, society, religion, warriors, etc. It's good to see others who want to see some historical accuracy in RTW

*edited for spelling.

PSYCHO
07-13-2004, 08:00
Quote[/b] (Shorty @ July 13 2004,00:29)]I suggest the book The Celts: A History by Peter Berresford Ellis for an excellent overview of Celtic innovations, society, religion, warriors, etc. It's good to see others who want to see some historical accuracy in RTW
Great book there Shorty.

Yes, your quite right about Celtic cavalry but OA's post was mentioning the Celtiberians. These were slightly different to the purely Celtic nations to their north. As you may be aware, the celtiberians were Celts who had inter-married with the local Iberians over centuries. So many of their customs etc had varied from their original form.

From my undestanding, the Iberian cavalry were the superior force in the penninsula. The Celtiberians didn't seem to retain much of their proud equestrian herritage there.

my2bob

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-13-2004, 16:50
Quote[/b] (Shorty @ July 13 2004,00:29)]There are a few things I would like to add.

Many Celts fought naked due to religious reasons. It made them closer to nature and assured their rebirth in the other world if they died (as Celts believed that there was another world in the west, and when one died in this world he went to the other, and vice versa). This was also much less common than it's made out to be, but it's so well known because of the Roman fascination with the custom. By 300 bc Celts had mail armor and likely introduced it to the Romans. Celts also probably gave the idea for the scutum to the Romans (Celts were using large square shields before the Romans), and the testudo formation.

The Celts believed the soul was contained in the head, and they would preserve the heads of respected individuals, sometimes friends as well as foes. Preserved heads were valued possessions.

I tend to believe that historical accounts cannot be completely trusted, as many of them are only propaganda. For example, many quote Caesar as though he were an expert on Gauls, when he was the leader of an invading armor sent to systematically destroy them. It is from Roman propaganda that people today get many of their beliefs about the Celts as childish and wild people.

Also, I was just wondering what made you say, "Celtiberian Light Cavalry: Celtiberian armies are known for their superb infantry, not by their cavalry." I'm not an expert on the Celtiberians in particular, but I know that Celts tended to have excellent cavalry, as shown by the fact that they were often recruited as mercenaries by Rome and other nations.
Yea. I know that. I did not present a more thourough description of Celts because PSYCHO had already done that in his work. Also, in Iberia, Celts were mingled culturally and ethnically with the Iberian populations. So, Celtiberians (I focused specifically on Numantines and alike) had some different cultural and religious traditions.

Contrary to the Celts (Gauls and Britons), in which the best unit was the Cavalry, the Numantines were specifically known for their extremelly good infantry, more than their cavalry. That is why I didn't give greater importance to their cav units.

As for Lusitanians, their warfare style was quite different from the Numantines, focusing on ambush encirclements more than organized open-warfare infantry confrontation. Therefore, the unit differences...

PSYCHO
07-15-2004, 05:14
...and brilliant work at that I'd just like to add again

Nice job Aymar de Bois Mauri

Aymar de Bois Mauri
07-16-2004, 10:30
Quote[/b] (PSYCHO @ July 14 2004,23:14)]...and brilliant work at that I'd just like to add again

Nice job Aymar de Bois Mauri
Thank you kindly, most respected Lord PSYCHO https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_bow.gif