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moonshiner_66
07-12-2004, 12:24
Hi all,

I'm playing MedMod 3.14 (a fantastic mod, btw) as the Russians in Early and even though it's only 1150ish, my czar's knees are buttery with fear of the Horde. I know it will come 1230 and since I saw it coming in a previous game I'm counting on 20+ stacks appearing in Khazar and Georgia. Currently I'm about 3K in the plus every year, no wars going on, almost everybody allied with me. I'm holding everything east of the Lithuania - Kiev line and I'm looking for advise on how to deal with the Mongol Menace.

Strategical questions: Should I try to defend Khazar when the horde appears or leave the province and try to retake it? Georgia is under Turkish control and I plan to let it stay that way. Should I try to bribe the Mongols (I would prefer a fight though) but I guess I won't have too many Florins left with all the army-build up ahead of me.

Tactical questions: What units should I use primarily when defending Mother Russia? Remember, I have MedMod 3.14 - Pavise Crossbows will be the best missile available. Boyars, Light+Heavy Steppes, Khazar Royals in the cav dept. Kopya + Rogatina Inf (Feudal + Chiv Sgts) for spear types and decent Russian Huscarles (armored and armor-piercing) will become available in High as attack infantry. Sadly, no AP, anti-cav infantry for the russians.

Should I try to hide in the woods with AP infantry and exploit the Mongol cav's disadvantage there? Should I try to hold the line with spearmen and cut them down with my crossbows (who will get ridden down quickly, slow as they are)? Should I go for an all cav army and meet them on their own terms?

For the sake of Mother Russia, offer any advise you have ... I have plenty of time to prepare and I'm willing to sacrifice every last prince and peasant if it will stop the slant-eyed juggernaut. Europe shall live in peace by virtue of my sacrifice :)

Thanks all,
moonshiner_66

Inuyasha12
07-12-2004, 12:59
This is the same problem that many people have had already,thankfully for you that question has already been answered.

Just check the Golden horde arrival Thread, and the Mongols? thread are just a couple of weeks old. Go to page 2-3 and read them.

Im sure you'll find all you need to know about the feared and powerfull mongols. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

Despot of the English
07-12-2004, 13:03
My favoured tactic has been to let the horde have Khazar and make a stand in Kiev because there's always a bridge battle there. The reason for this is because I've never had armies enough to take on the Horde man for man so I've always taken a defensive strategy.

Still, the more men you have the better and 4,000 does the trick for me in the bridge battle of Kiev. Have plenty of Kopya and Rogatina infantry (I forget which one is the better) to hold the hordes at the bridge. I find them more important than Huscarls although having a few units isn't a bad idea.

Have as many Xbows as you can. If you can get Pavise Arbalesters then great. In fact any kind of pavise xbow units will be very beneficial and you need lots of them. Some catapults is a good idea too, though not essential.

Also the Horde usually has lots of mortars so I have some cavalry at the ready to make a quick dash across the river to take them out - Steppe Heavy Cavalry or Khazar Royal cavalry is preferrable. Once you've dealt with the enemy mortars pull them back across the river if you can. I find cavalry very useful because once the Horde has engaged and is fighting on the bridge I then attack them from the rear, especially if the Khan himself is fighting.

All this for the bridge battle of Kiev has worked for me. In one memorable incident I killed the Khan and the entire horde turned to rebels http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif .

katank
07-12-2004, 20:50
try to get khazar to at least citadel and then you can defend there with ample heavy inf. and just let the castle take its toll upon mongol forces and then make a stand in Kiev which they invariably attack.

Si GeeNa
07-13-2004, 09:38
Hi moonshiner,

I have been delibrating over this issue recently as well. Some background...

I started with MedMod 3.14 as Russians in the High game, on Expert. I have taken as little precaution to invade Khazar and Volga-Bulgaria. Instead, as the Horde arrive some 10+ turns after the start of the game, i stand roughly at the same provinces as i started out with. (I only conquered Crimea as the Byz seem to lose interest in their Black Sea dominions.)

So, i'm somewhere 8 turns into the Horde and i have fought 2 Big battles with them so far. I have lost Percasyl (sp) and Smolensk initially. However, in a strategic pincer movement, i enveloped the GH army in Smolensk by pushing a strong Blocking force into Chernigov.

I had a climatic battle in Smolensk. My Tsar led a Cav-heavy army. Russian Retainers and Boyars raced across the battlefield and attacked the GH Heavy Cav and Light Cav respectively. My infantry marched across the field and by the time they were to take part, the GH had signaled an end to proceeding and took flight.

I would dare say that the Russian Retainers matched the GH Heavy Cav spectacularly. They were AP Missile Units and were Fast. I took down half of their Heavy Cav before charging home.

The Boyars were chasing the GH Light Cav all over the battlefield. Soon after the GH Heavy Cav got clobbered, the Light Cav also ran.

Their Chinese Infantry never even got a chance. They were slaughtered as the battle raged around them. By the time they were ready to rout, i had assembled most of my Cav to take care of them.

I think 1,600+ GH to 129 Russian heads was a respectable scoreline...

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

I say, don't hide in them trees. Take it like a Russian Bear and fight them toe to toe as Heavy Cav

GAH

WorkNeglecter
07-13-2004, 16:53
With the right troop mix, good placement, a decent general and enough reinforcements you can ALWAYS beat the horde, even a pitched defensive battle in Khazar on appearance.

The main question is:

CAN YOU HANDLE A 7-HOUR BATTLE????

http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-dizzy2.gif

That's the REAL challenge.

lancer63
07-13-2004, 17:24
If you're in Khazar and the Genghis boys show up, look for a forest, deploy your heavy infantry as deep inside the forest as posible. Medium and light inf. on the outer parts of the forest and all misile units at the tree line. Don“t use any cavalry for the first two waves unless you need to get rid of some disloyal or inbred subject. Because no matter how good your horsies are, the mongols will have at least twice more and if your cav pursues mongol units and get separated from your main force you'll never see them poor devils again.
Best defense for me is to turn the forest into a meat grinder. MHC is lost in the forest and last pitifully little against men with axes. MHA and MW fare no better. After about 3 wawes you may call your own cav to join the party and finish the job. But don't let your heavy inf. leave the forest. Those sneaky mongols will jump at the first chance of catching your slow heavies in the open. And your cavalry might still be beaten, so you'd still need a strong place to fall back in case things don't go as expected.

katank
07-13-2004, 17:26
still, castle defense in khazar and bridge defense in kiev makes for far less micro.

all you see is arb bolts flying thick as rain and the mongol suckers dropping like flies.

ah_dut
07-13-2004, 20:20
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 13 2004,11:26)]still, castle defense in khazar and bridge defense in kiev makes for far less micro.

all you see is arb bolts flying thick as rain and the mongol suckers dropping like flies.
katank, i charge you with cruelty to mongols http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

katank
07-13-2004, 20:24
guilty as charged.

in fact, sadistic cruelty.

muwahahaha.

do you know how beautiful it is to find 2 merc organ guns and setting them in a crossfire on the Kiev bridge beside your plug and also having javs and naptha behind it?

the khan and 2 units of MHC disappeared a a blaze of glory. http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

moonshiner_66
07-14-2004, 10:02
Well, thank you for all your replies ... lotsa mixed opinions but I think I'll try this strategy:

- Hold the citadel+barbican in Khazar with a few elite troops
- Hold my main army in Kiev hoping for a bridge battle there
- Have the army consist of 1/3 Rogatina Inf, 1/3 Pavise crossbows, 1/6 Russian Huscarles, 1/6 Cav, all upgraded with armor and morale

Now, there are on or two other provinces (without river borders) next to Khazar... Won't the mongols' try to take these (lightly defended) provinces instead of wandering into the Bears Jaw thai is Kiev? I can't possibly defend all provinces bordering Khazar as I have not enough men for that.

Well, I hope this works out. Now, if it weren't for those Italian bastards that have already taken over most of Europe and are knocking on my western border ... I can't fight two hordes at the same time :(

moonshiner_66
07-14-2004, 10:03
Well, thank you for all your replies ... lotsa mixed opinions but I think I'll try this strategy:

- Hold the citadel+barbican in Khazar with a few elite troops
- Hold my main army in Kiev hoping for a bridge battle there
- Have the army consist of 1/3 Rogatina Inf, 1/3 Pavise crossbows, 1/6 Russian Huscarles, 1/6 Cav, all upgraded with armor and morale

Now, there are on or two other provinces (without river borders) next to Khazar... Won't the mongols' try to take these (lightly defended) provinces instead of wandering into the Bears Jaw thai is Kiev? I can't possibly defend all provinces bordering Khazar as I have not enough men for that.

Well, I hope this works out. Now, if it weren't for those Italian bastards that have already taken over most of Europe and are knocking on my western border ... I can't fight two hordes at the same time :(

Despot of the English
07-14-2004, 19:21
Quote[/b] (moonshiner_66 @ July 14 2004,10:03)]Now, there are on or two other provinces (without river borders) next to Khazar... Won't the mongols' try to take these (lightly defended) provinces instead of wandering into the Bears Jaw thai is Kiev? I can't possibly defend all provinces bordering Khazar as I have not enough men for that.
If you're very unlucky the Mongols may act smart and do exactly that. But there's a 99% chance of them bungling right into Kiev where all your troops are just waiting to stick them on their xbow quarrels https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif .

katank
07-14-2004, 20:50
the mongols are usually dumb enough to hurl themselves turn after turn against Kiev. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif instead of bypassing your defenses by overruning your adjacent provinces and then attacking without bridge battles.

lancer63
07-14-2004, 23:01
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 14 2004,14:50)]the mongols are usually dumb enough to hurl themselves turn after turn against Kiev. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif instead of bypassing your defenses by overruning your adjacent provinces and then attacking without bridge battles.
But to reach Kiev from Khazar without a bridge battle you have to, at least, conquer Poland. That's a four province quest by the shortest route and even if everybody chickens out and let the GH pass, they would be left sorely exposed to counter invasion. Hardly an acceptavble alternative.

But lately The GH has been ignoring my Polish or Hungarian trap in Kiev and dedicated to visit the turks, biz and ruskies. everywhere but Kiev https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif
Last time I had to pull out two of the four stacks there so that the Mongols could be fooled and they were...once and didn't send even a diseased horse that way again.
Yet when the AI is holding Kiev they can take it without even shooting one miserable arrow https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

I guess those Mongols have managed to have the game fixed. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Inuyasha12
07-14-2004, 23:51
Quote[/b] ]the mongols are usually dumb enough to hurl themselves turn after turn against Kiev. instead of bypassing your defenses by overruning your adjacent provinces and then attacking without bridge battles.

Wich really annoys me because the mongols were really master tacticians

katank
07-15-2004, 04:04
true.

if they planned out their attacks and charged both bridges simultaneously, they can easily break most defenses.