HTW Project 2:Bronze Age Total War

[flip]

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[komninos]

Hi flip,

So you did the Octaspis too. Great I was to write to you about this. Any way just a note the Octaspis guys were a Pike unit http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[flip]

Hi Kom, sorry for the surprise... http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
Well, just tests, i leave you the hard part shielding and weaponry for you
http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Omegamann]

Hey,
you guys are doing these as bifs already???
Thats great, can I use them for the Troy remake when they are done?

Oh and one remark
Please change the texture on the eastern chariot, the simple grey texture is quite bland (what is it supposed to represent anyway?)
The Cowhide on the Mykeanan Chariots looks much better, though the Eastern/Hittite Chariots might be either simple wood or colored in patterns.
an hittite chariot with an X marked on the side (http://www.ancientanatolia.com/Pictures/Gallery01/image37.htm)

As for the Pikemen and Mycaenan Warrrors Foundry might be a good refference.
Foundrys Trojan Wars1 (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/BIBLICAL/1/index.asp)
Foundrys Trojan Wars2 (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/BIBLICAL/2/index.asp)
Foundrys Bronce Age Range (http://www.wargamesfoundry.com/collections/BIBLICAL/index.asp)

[flip]

Omegamann,

Better talk with Komninos about the Troy sub mod. But for me is ok.
Yes, we will have new units for this period. This mod had not yet a official announcement. It depends on much. If will take too long then RTW will blast over Us all.
i'm taking it however seriously because of my personal distrustful attitude about RTW.

Yes, the chariots will be totally remade.
there's lot in this era.

Ok and thanks for the pics. I have pretty good stuff already for now.

[Omegamann]

May I ask what sources do you use?
Appart from Peter Connollys work an ancient Greece and the Trojan War, and the pictures from Dbaol I found it quite difficult to find pictures of early and late Mycaenen warriors and gear.
Even in the Greek Vase Paintings of Homeric times (wich I intend to use as portraits) the Heros and Warriors are always depicted in classical gear.

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[flip]

Pikes

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[The Sword of Cao Cao]

What are these new pictures for? Someo f the shields look like they did in the Trojan era. Is this fro a Trojan mod or something?

[Julius Caesar]

What period are those units in?

[Omegamann]

Great looking Mycaenan and Minoans https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-stunned.gif
I especialy like the colorfull 'kilts'
I hope you will also do late Mycaenans with bronze breastplates and horned helmets.
And maybe some Sea Peoples for diversity.

[flip]

Thats what films such as Troy causes in people.
Omegamann, yes we will have those.

[Omegamann]

Just to clarify,if I may:
the units here are early bronze age mycaenan and minoans.
The minoans were the dominant trading culture of the southern greek islands, while the more warlike mycaenan greeks quickly conquerd the Greek mainlaind and after the disaster of Thera/Santorini also managed to conquer the minioan islands.

The later Mycaenans are believed to be the Acheans and Daanans (Greeks) of the Trojan war.

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

shit, I feel like an idiot..

Damn you Troy

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Shields rendered with units https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Steppe Merc]

It looks quite cool https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif Would you use the same map as before, or what?

[komninos]

We have a new map that spans from Greece to the plains of Iran and from Danube to the middle of the Nile. We have to parse it for HTW still but that is a matter of time.

[ParthianWarrior]

Should be another Exciting update. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Crazed Rabbit]

Quote[/b] ]
We have a new map that spans from Greece to the plains of Iran and from Danube to the middle of the Nile. We have to parse it for HTW still but that is a matter of time.
Wow I was wondering how this mod could get any more awesome... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Keep up the great work on this mod I can't wait for the next update

[Steppe Merc]

Sweet Will you use it in the old campaign, so the Persians have more of their real land? Also, will the Scythian lands be included?

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

The Nile eh? Does that mean we will be able to play as Pharonic Egypt?

*prays we will*

[ParthianWarrior]

Looks like it will be the Bronze Age..So no Persians.

[komninos]

ParthianWarrior, let me first convert the scripts to fit VI standards and then any one with some moding skills can convert it to fit HTW era.

And Yes you can play the Egypt, Hycsos, Minoans, Sumerians, ...

[Omegamann]

Dont forget about the Assyrians, Hittites and Mitani please.
And most of all the Sea Peoples (Maybe as an invasion force?)

Will you also include the more northern early celtic bronze age cultures?

[Despot of the English]

I particularly love those archers up top https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-2thumbsup.gif .
Who are those guys with the black and white shields?
Really is great stuff https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif .

[komninos]

Hi,

Apparently the Bronze Age TW has captivated many of you. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Apart from the new map that when it will be ready it will be released in the Mapping Library Project thread, it will have a number of new units.

The Map it self will initially be ready for HTW use but with only a few units and buildings so an experienced moder can make an HTW add-on with it. Then again I might do it while making the Bronze Age TW.

It will start at 3000BC, pass to the High period at 2000BC in Late at 1100 and end at 800BC. This will fairly connect it to HTW. This coincides with the rise and fall of the Mycenaean’s. In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area, in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece, plus they all struggle for sea trade roots to Egypt and the Middle East. At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots. They go to war with Hittite Empire that was declining. Suddenly in about 1200BC they disappear while the social structure is crumbling.

The units you are looking here are Greek units of the early and high period. The Octaspis is the pinnacle of the Mycenaean war engineering. The old tower shield was substituted by a new type. The 8-shaped shied permitted the better use of the pike but also its shape allowed it to be used for shuffling and opening britches in the enemy formation thus exposing the enemy and making them vulnerable to attack.

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

SWEET

Hittites Hysos Egyptians Awesome

YOu guys are t3h tightness

[flip]

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba12.jpg
At the background the Tower shields formations. Fore ground Eight-shield.

[dimitrios the samian]

.. AWESOME ... Fantastic .. Bring on the Bronze Age and to think HTW is still only in beta as well , ..
GEROUSIA you all deserve a multimillion company $$ https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-smile.gif .... MESOPOTAMIA TOTAL WAR .. I feel it getting nearer ..yeeh .. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

The pics look incredibly well, just like the ones of HTW, which isn't on my Comp yet due to the painfully slow connection where I am right now living https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

But it won't take long to get it a better one and HTW https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers

OA https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Oleander Ardens]

The pics look incredibly well, just like the ones of HTW, which isn't on my Comp yet due to the painfully slow connection where I am right now living https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/frown.gif

But it won't take long to get a better one and HTW https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers

OA https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[Steppe Merc]

The bigger map you were talking about, will it be in the final release that the Count was talking about?

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Kom quote on top of this page:

Quote[/b] ]Apparently the Bronze Age TW has captivated many of you.
Apart from the new map that when it will be ready it will be released in the Mapping Library Project thread, it will have a number of new units.

The Map it self will initially be ready for HTW use but with only a few units and buildings so an experienced moder can make an HTW add-on with it. Then again I might do it while making the Bronze Age TW.






No not in this final release,details here are for a Bronze Age mod that needs the new map.If the RTW engine is not mod-friendly enough the MTW engine will be used,but i hope the RTW engine can be used of course,all speculation now we will just wait and see...and play RTW first

CZoF https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-curtain.gif

[dessa14]

how are you going to control the many tech trees required.
and the dorian invasion.

you will need at least four tech trees.

Myceanean
Minion
Egyptian
and Hittite

you could easily expand that by adding Dorian.
you could also add an etruscan and some of the northern barbaric tribes.
thanks,
dessa

[Gregorius0202]

"It will start at 3000BC, pass to the High period at 2000BC in Late at 1100 and end at 800BC. This will fairly connect it to HTW. This coincides with the rise and fall of the Mycenaean’s. In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area, in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece, plus they all struggle for sea trade roots to Egypt and the Middle East. At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots. They go to war with Hittite Empire that was declining. Suddenly in about 1200BC they disappear while the social structure is crumbling."

These years are a bit odd... I'm guessing your planning three seperate campaigns, that stretch over this period, because obviously everyone would win the game before they ever got the the "late" period in this way.

And about the Mycenaean stuff...

"In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area"

In 3000 BC, Mycenae, well, we didn't even know if it was there. All that was in Greece at this time were the earliest walled citadels, which were still small communities by Egypts or Sumer's standards.

"in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece"

Not true, really. Mycenae didn't rise to power until about the 17th century BC. In 2,000, it would have been small, and unimportant. Knossos on Crete wasn't even powerful at this time. The 'Minoan' and 'Mycenaean' powers wouldn't come about until about 1700 BC to 1600 BC.

"At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots."

I think you're trying to say about 1,300 BC ** :\ **, because you mention it's collapse in about 1,200, which is, of course, correct...

"The units you are looking here are Greek units of the early and high period. The Octaspis is the pinnacle of the Mycenaean war engineering. The old tower shield was substituted by a new type. The 8-shaped shied permitted the better use of the pike but also its shape allowed it to be used for shuffling and opening britches in the enemy formation thus exposing the enemy and making them vulnerable to attack."

This is, of course, controversial... Some isn't though. The Figure-of-eight shield was used at the same time as the Tower shield, and they both becamse popular *and were created* in about 1700 BC, or so, and fell out of use in about 1350 BC or so. Smaller circle and crescent shields took their place, as did the javelin as the main Mycenaean weapon, instead of long spears. The use of the Figure-of-Eight shield would go well with long spears, or the long, large-ribbed swords of the early Mycenaean times.

Later, the swords would change into those of central European origin. Short, slashing and hacking weapons were used, the most popular of these being what is know as the "Type II" swords from Kallithea. Weapons through the Mycenaean era changed so much during your game period, that having them evolve would be rather difficult...

Anyway, on to why I'm here. I was made aware of this mod by princejohn while chatting over at the .Com forums. I've been interested in making a Bronze Age MOD myself, but wish to place it primarily in the Last Citadel Age in Greece (1450 BC to 1150 or so). I have a lot of faction and unit idea's, but I'm not really a modder, and well, that's why I'm here.

I was interested if you guys would be either willing to incorperate some of my units (mainly Achaean or Trojan, but I also know lots about Egyptian, Hittite, and Shardan arms and armor!) in your MOD. I'd be extremely pleased to help, and to have some of my contributions allowed, and not to mention very honored!

To see what I've gotten put together in literally the last 5 days, check this out!

http://s4.invisionfree.com/AOH/

Lemme' know what you guys think! (The unit descriptions is the main deal, and just a taste of what I want to be able to do!)

Thanks!

-Gregory-

*By the way, I didn't know I was a Jr. Member just because I had an account on the old forums, so I posted a thread in the alchemist's lab for you guys to 'check out'... Don't mind that:D*

[komninos]

Gregorius,

I have noted what you say and I will come back to you some time later including your help offer, but don't hold your breath till then ... free time problems ... probably in the weekend.

But some things to note.
1. The period is BIG ... OK it lasts for ~2000 moves I don't expect anyone to finish it. But trust me you will not have any easy time grabbing areas and moving especially in the first period. Even against rebel factions.

2. Greeks did not appear in the peninsula one day they were there since ~5000BC (that is the first stone age settlement in the area) Minoans were big in ~2000BC and remained a force to be reckoned with till ~1200BC. Mycenaeans had a tougher root to take and more enemies (proven by the heavy fortifications). Pelasgians in Cycads also had an easier path and they were in there prime for a long time till the Destruction of Thera in ~1200BC.

3. Most of the things we know are from contemporary myths and people have a great time mixing them an interpreting them as they like.

4. I might have made thing larger that what they were in there Historical presence - poetic freedom - but they are not far from true. And Yes the Greek kingdoms were not of the Slender of those of Summer and the like till the ~2000BC but then they really took off. Control of the Sea lanes was in there hands for many years and this was the cause of the Trojan war that most probably ended both the declining Hittite empire and Mycenaean one.

5. Finally the tower shield was use for a long time but was abandoned for the 8-shield when it became available. 8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part. It sow wide spread use in the Mycenean and main land armies but was outdated by the time of Troy and an armoured "hoplitic type" shield was adopted by the most advanced city states.

Please don’t take my words offensively ... they some times come out that way but I hate all the things that have people done to this period of history. There are more misconceptions in this period than the some of all other period added together. And thanks to Hollywood (Troy) we now know we Greeks come from the Vikings.

P.S.
This mod most probably will remain a MTW VI mod at least not until we have the tools to port it in to RTW.

[Gregorius0202]

"Finally the tower shield was use for a long time but was abandoned for the 8-shield when it became available. 8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part. It sow wide spread use in the Mycenean and main land armies but was outdated by the time of Troy and an armoured "hoplitic type" shield was adopted by the most advanced city states"

I'm not some kind of fool... Don't worry. Troy was Terrible. I'm the type of guy who sits around reading Peter Connolly, Osprey Military series books, and anything about Ancient Greece and it's warfare I can get my hands on. It is a well known fact that tower shields are depicted on vases and frescos in Pylos and from other regions of Achaea up until almost the exact same time that Figure-of-eight shields stopped being show, as well.

I'd really like to see your sources, because it's nonsense to say that the figure of eight type procceeded the Tower:D. I'm being quite serious, and can state several credible sources, if you wish it to come to that...

In fact, here's a quick one: The famous lion Hunt Dagger from Mycenae. It depicts TWO figure-of-eight shields being used and TWO Tower shields being used. This is in the exact same place and time, and dates from approximately 1,400 BC.

http://www.ou.edu/finearts/art/ahi4913/aegeanslides/154.jpg
(I'm sure you've seen it before, but here's for anyone who hasn't!)

Another would be the famous Fresco from Thera, which depicts 3-4 Tower shields being used, within two hundred years before this same time. The figure-of-eight was likely used at this exact same era (although probably not on Thera), and both were out of fashion within 300 more years of this time. I can't find a picture of this one online, at the moment, although I've seen a few. My PC is goin' terribly slow, so I'm going to say I'm unsuccessful in find it now:\

Back to the shield development...

The figure of eight wasy popular, as you said, throughout Achaea, although we have limited sources to it's use in combat, etc... It was outdated by 1300 BC, and as you stated, modern shields took over. These, although we know little about them, mainly came in the form of well-developed, large pelta, like those later to be used by peltasts of Hellenistic Greece. Judging by the example from Kalizori, we can see that they had Bronze rims and uniquely styled Bronze Bosses, probably of Northern Influence.

I'm just tryin' to get the point across here about the Figure-of-Eight, because it seems as though you're a bit confused as to whether it was used at the time the Tower shields were, which I can guarentee you, and I'll bet my life on it and every souce I've ever heard it in, that it was...

As for this...

"Greeks did not appear in the peninsula one day they were there since ~5000BC (that is the first stone age settlement in the area) Minoans were big in ~2000BC and remained a force to be reckoned with till ~1200BC. Mycenaeans had a tougher root to take and more enemies (proven by the heavy fortifications). Pelasgians in Cycads also had an easier path and they were in there prime for a long time till the Destruction of Thera in ~1200BC."

That's all correct. The people had been there for a long time, and as I stated, they were merely small farming communities. The first Citadels arose in Crete about 3,200 BC, and then about 3,000 BC in Mycenae. But they were small powers. Crete and Mycenae didn't gain a LOT of influence over Greece until about... at least 1,700 BC, as I stated before (Not arguing with you, just goin' into more detail).

I'll also note that Thera was in fact destroyed by a volcanic eruption, and although until recently the date of this disaster was disputed, recent archealogical and scientific assumptions put it at 1600 BC, which is before what you said (1,200 BC).

And to this: "I have noted what you say and I will come back to you some time later including your help offer, but don't hold your breath till then ... free time problems ... probably in the weekend."

Okay, thanks for lookin' into it all;D

Adios!

-Gregory-

(EDIT:

"8-shape shield took two forms one with wood & cow skin layers and one armoured with bronze on the outer part."

I believe you're actually talking about two rather different shields. One is like that shown on the Egyptian reliefs of the fights with the Sea-peoples, while the other is the Mycenaean type, which is more like an "8". That'd be made from wicker and multiple layers of cowhide, like you suggested, and it would also have a long, Bronze boss running across the front. The other one, well, we don't know much about it! It did have a bronze rim, if that's what you're talking about, but we don't know if it really had full bronze-facings, that's just artists conceptions, etc...

[komninos]

"I'd really like to see your sources, because it's nonsense to say that the figure of eight type procceeded the Tower:D. I'm being quite serious, and can state several credible sources, if you wish it to come to that..."

Aaa .... sorry ... I did not say it proceeded it ... it outclassed it and it was built and used later. I am sure some used the tower type shield for a long time. Weapons were hard to get in those days and since in Greece most armies were civic if your father had one you would keep it! But at the end I am sure the tower shield was phased out at least in the mainland.

As far as depictions and wall paintings remember many had a ceremonial character so they might depict some time in the past too.

The later 8-sheild might be close the Boeotian type not as large. I think Homer refers to Grater Ajacs (Greek Eas (Aias) Telamonios) that has an 8-sheild covered with Bronze but I am not 100% on that.

For Thera I think the island was known as Strongily at those days or Archaeologists named it that way. It actually reads round or circle since the island looked as it had a round shape with the volcano as the centre. Now days only the west part remains ~:( Is the date 1600BC more certain? If yes then the transition point of 2000BC looks better. (compromises have to be made. Remember this is a simulation we can get as close as the engine permits us to.)

Can you send me your e-mail?

[Gregorius0202]

Hey, glad we've reached points on this shield thing. I agree with all of your statements *yay!* Yeah, the one I was talking about that was shown on the Egyptian reliefs is the one similar to the Boeotian, but larger, possibly (used by the Sea-peoples).

Anyway, For Thera, looking back, between 1550-1500 would be a more accurate date for that. I REALLY think a good transition date would be about 1550 BC, but that would make either the first or second ages too long, and that one too short. I say this because this is when the Hittites, Minoans, Mycenaeans, Egyptians, and Babylonians began having their big wars with eachother and coming into contact (1550 something being the first recorded battle ever between the Babylonians and I believe the Canaanites).

My email is wisgliebau@yahoo.com *I've also been meaning to talk to you about a map making endevour, so, mention that in any email you send, if you remember, so I don't forget to mention it, if you would, please;)*

Adios!

-Gregory-

[lonewolf371]

I too was very impressed with the original HTW, it just seems to get better and better! With the Mycenaeans added in, will you guys be adding in a Troy faction/historical campaign? I can understand if that might be difficult due to lack of complex historical sources, but it still might be interesting to see a Troy vs. Mycenaeans conflict.

[Gregorius0202]

Flip, looking through some of the images on the first page, I noticed that you had one posted with cavalry in the background. This may have been charioteers, because I could only see the front. It's near the bottom. I was wondering if you were going to incorperate cavalry, and if so, I'd be interested in seeing any references to chariotless warriors on horseback from the era, because I've actually been searching for such information myself, to no avail...

Lemme' know if you've got any sources I can use on that bit ~;)

Thanks!

-Gregory-

[Marshal Murat]

I have Ospreys Ancient Middle Eastern Armies
Techtrees you'll need are

Early Bronze (3000 B.C.)

Sumerians (united under Ur)
Egyptians (divided, then united into the Old Kingdom, then civil wars, and then Middle Kingdom)
Assyrians (like the Mongols in MTW)
Canaanite empire (from Ebla)
Amorites (invaders before 2nd period)
Akkadians (sematic invaders)

At this time there were massive migrations of sematic peoples from the East.

[Gregorius0202]

How is that book? I just ordered it a couple of weeks ago with 5 other Osprey military series books, but because of Amazon availability, I won't get them for a month or so...

You also wouldn't need different technology trees for each faction. Having different architecture may be important, but the buildings would be relatively the same. An example of a change may be that in the late age, the Assyrians or Hittites may be able to skip some type of 'armory' and begin producing iron weapons before anyone else, if not be the only ones in the game to have it. Other than stuff like that, I'd say that it being like Medieval, with practically the same 'technology trees' for each culture, would make gameplay a LOT easier to balance.

My two cents on that whole thing...

-Gregory-

[Marshal Murat]

Pretty good book, got mine from the library.

2000 B.C.
Hittites grow stronger, strongest nation in Central and Asia Minor.
Amorties establish "old" Bablyonian Empire.
Hurrians (biblical Hurites) migrate south into the northern part of Tirgris and Euprates, and establish Mitanni.
Egypt and Assyria both expand, the first into Nubia/Sudan and Syria, the latter to form the Old Kingdom.
Hammurabi subjegates the Old Assyrians, Syria, and Elamites (Persian Gulf Iran, near Susa)
Egypt conquered by Hyskos.
Hittites expand to Old kingdom.
Egypt begins New Kingdom, Hyskos expelled and the Nubians conquered
Hittites break up "old" babylon, and expand to Syria
Kassites take "old"bablyon
Chaldeans infiltrate Babylon
Chaldeans fight Assyrian domnation
(Hittites and Egypt fight)
Hittites and Egypt expand to Palestine and Syria
Hitties are halted at Meggido by Egypt
Egyptians expand to Mesopotamia
Hittites expand and fight against Babylonian Empire, conquer Mitanni
Assyria begins to rise
Egypt halts Hittites at Kadesh and Egypt takes Palestine, Syria goes to Hittites
Elamites revolt against rulers and gain independance
Hittites war with Assyria and lose due to attacks via Sea People, and internal Disorder.
First waves of Sea People invade
Irsael conquers Canaan
Severe famine causes Egypt to send grain ships north to Asia minor, Lybians suffering causes move to Delta
Assyrian Empire grows to Conquer Bablyon
Turmoil and famine ensue with massive migrations of people, Egypt defeats the Sea People in battle but gives Philistine to them, the Hittites are desroyed, Cyprus is overwhelmed, Assyria is expanding, and Palestine is full of small kingdoms and nations
Assyria grows to full power
General usurp Pharoah and create numerous feudal kingdoms.
Philistines conquer Israel, Sual expels them, David creates the United monarchy of Judah, and Israel, conquer Palestine, Sugjegate Ammons, Moabs, etc. Conquer the lands to Syria.

Long read
Chronological order :cheers:

[Gregorius0202]

Good summary. I had a couple of websites that presented long timelines (they'd be for each individual nation, and span it's whole length...) I'll try to get some of those posted.

@HTW dudes- I'm rather worried about the whole 2,000 turn game, personally:\ Most people get rather tired of Medieval games after 400 or so... I think each of your periods should present it's own campaign, and then you can have more focus on different styles of technology, units, etc... In each one. I think this would present a funner MOD overall, especially from the gameplay point of view!

Here's some information I can dig up at the moment-

HITTITES-
----------

Hittite Rulers, names and years:

Labarnash, founder of the Hittite Kingdom (d. 1660 BC )
Hattusilis I (1680-1650 BC)
Mursilis I (1620-1590 BC)
Hantilis II
Zidantas
Ammunhas
Telepinus (1525-1510 BC)
Alluwamnas
Tudhaliyas I
Huzzihas II (1460-1440 BC)
Arnuwandas I (1440-1420 BC)
Hattusilis II (1420-1400 BC)
Tudhaliyas II (1400-1380 BC)
Suppiluliumas I (1380-1345 BC)
Arnuwandas II (1345 BC)
Mursilis II (1345-1315 BC)
Muwatallis (1315-1275 BC)
Hattusilis III (1275-1250 BC)
Tudhaliyas IV (1250-1220 BC)
Arnuwandas IV(1220-1200 BC)
Suppiluliumas II (1200-1190 BC)

Brief history-

Originally the Hittites were semi-nomadic farmers who lived north of the Black Sea and who migrated into Anatolia around 2300 BC. According to tradition, the founder of the Old Hittite kingdom was named Labarnas. He established the seas as his boundaries and made his sons governors of the conquered territories.

During the reign of Mursilis I (1620-1590 BC), the Hittites raided down the Euphrates, destroying Babylon in 1600 BC and defeating the Hurrians on the return march. Subsequent to his reign, however, the empire was plagued by internal chaos, a period marked by political insurrection, royal assassinations, and palace intrigues. During this time the Hittites lost control of much of their previously acquired territory in Anatolia and Syria. In 1525 BC, however, Telepinus seized the throne and restored order to the kingdom.

Suppiluliumas I (1380-1346 BC), an energetic and successful campaigner, restored Hittite control in Anatolia. His predecessors, Arnuwandas I, Hattusilis II, Tudhaliyas II, and Arnuwandas II, were unable to defend even the heartland and had endured attacks from every direction. He effectively extended the borders of his kingdom to the south and east. He fought successful wars with the Mitanni and conquered most of Syria, including the powerful city-state of Carchemesh. This conquest brought the Hittites into conflict with Egypt, whose armies, during the two previous centuries, had campaigned in Palestine and had conquered territory as far away as the Euphrates. By 1315 BC the new Hittite empire was firmly established and effectively governed through a widespread system of treaty relationships with allies and vassal states.

There is some disagreement as to whether Mursilis II's successor, Muwatallis, defeated the Egyptian army led by Rameses II at Qadesh on the Orontes River. Strategically, the Hittites were able to drive the Egyptians out of Syria and to retain control of Qadesh and Amurru, but tactically, the Egyptians would appear to have won the day. Flare-ups between the two ancient empires continued until 12 years later when a treaty between Hattusilis III and Rameses II insured peace between Hatti and Egypt.

In the 13th century BC, Assyria absorbed Mitannian territory as far as the Euphrates, previously within the sphere of Hittite control and influence. Meanwhile, the Assyrians were steadily gaining power and were becoming a dangerous neighbour. They caused rebellions all along the southern border and Tudhalish IV spent his the rest of his life trying to supress these rebellions. Again beset by both internal and external pressures, the Hittites were unable to resist the onslaught of the Sea Peoples, who overran Anatolia about 1200 BC and contributed to the collapse of the Hittite empire.

These invasions brought about a dark age across Asia Minor that lasted from 1200-800 BC. When they left, the lands recovered and reorganized into over a dozen small independent kingdoms, with a Hittite culture modified by Syrian-Semitic influences, known as the Neo-Hittite, or Syro-Hittite, states (referred to as the "Sons of Heth" in the Bible). These states were able to survive as long as they did by forming alliances, but eventually fell to Assyrian and Urartu aggression by 710 BC.

NEW KINGDOM EGYPTIANS-
--------------------------

Names of Rulers and Dates-

1550-1525 Ahmose (Amosis) (Amonhotep)
1525-1504 Amenophis I
1504-1492 Thuthmose I (Tuthmosis)
1492-1479 Thuthmose II (Tuthmosis)
1479-1425 Thuthmose III (Tuthmosis)
1473-1458 Hatshepsut
1427-1401 Amenophis II
1401-1391 Tuthmosis IV
1391-1353 Amenophis III
1353-1335 Amenophis IV (a.k.a. Akhenaten)
1335-1333 Smenkhkare
1333-1323 Tutankhamun
1323-1319 Aya (Ay)
1319-1307 Haremhab (Horemhab)

1307-1196 19th Dynasty

1307-1306 Ramesses I
1306-1290 Seti I
1290-1224 Ramesses II
1224-1214 Merneptah
1214-1204 Seti II
1204-1198 Siptah
1198-1196 Twosre

1196-1070 20th Dynasty

1196-1194 Sethnakhte
1194-1094 Ramesses III-XI

Brief History
-----------

18th Dynasty

After the expulsion of the Hyksos, Amenhotep I, who reigned 1551-1524 BC, began to extend Egypt's boundaries in Nubia and Palestine. When Thutmose III achieved sole rule after the death of his mother, Hatshepsut in 1483 BC, he reconquered Syria and Palestine, which had broken away during their co-regency. He then continued to expand his empire southward beyond the fifth cataract, into Nubia and westward into Libya. Amenhotep II, who reigned 1453-1419 BC, and Thutmose IV tried to maintain the Asian conquests in the face of growing threats from the Mitanni and Hittites, but they found it necessary to use negotiations as well as force to penetration further into Mesopotamia.

While Amenhotep III ruled peacefully from 1386-1349 BC, the Hittites had been establishing control over Syria and threatening Egypt's position in Palestine. He was only successful in maintaining the balance of power among Egypt's neighbours by diplomacy. His son and successor, Amenhotep IV, more commonly known as Akhenaton, was a religious reformer who fought the power of the Amon priesthood. His only military contribution was to let the imperial possessions slip away, thereby setting the stage for the more dynamic external and military affairs of the 19th Dynasty.

19th Dynasty

The 19th Dynasty was founded by Ramses I, who had served his predecessor, Horemhab, as vizier and commander of the army. He reigned for only two years, from 1293-1291 BC. He was succeeded by his son, Seti I, who reigned 1291-1279 BC and is considered to be one of the most active and successful military leaders of the period. He led campaigns against Syria, Palestine, the Libyans, and the Hittites. His most famous son, Ramses II, succeeded him and reigned for nearly 67 years. He was responsible for a great deal of construction at sites such as Luxor and Karnak. He built the Ramesseum (his funerary temple at Thebes), the rock-cut temples at Abu Simbel, as well as sanctuaries at Abydos and Memphis and these provide an invaluable source of information on this period. After campaigns against the Hittites, climaxing in the much interpreted battle of Qadesh around 1300, Ramses concluded a treaty with them culminating in a marriage to a Hittite princess. His son Merneptah, who reigned 1212-1202 BC, defeated one wave of Sea Peoples, and he is reported to have caused some havoc in Israel. Later rulers of this dynasty had to contend with constant uprisings by subject peoples within the empire.

20th Dynasty

The second ruler of the 20th Dynasty, Ramses III, halted, but did not defeat the Sea Peoples. He gave them land in Canaan, which became Philistia. His mortuary complex at Medinet Habu, near Thebes documents his military victories.

The rising power of the priesthood of Amon and that of the army contributed to the decline of the New Kingdom and a general state of chaos after Ramses' death. This period offers a backdrop for wargame battles that are rarely seen, that is, civil war scenarios.

SUMER-
--------

Timeline-

2800: Etana of Kish united Sumerian city-states Kish, Uruk, Ur, Sippar, Akshak Larak, Nippur, Adab, Umma, Lagash, Bad-tibira, Larsa after "Great Flood"
2630-2600: Men-barage-si: King of Kish (Kishi), disarmed Elam
2600: Gilgamesh: King of Uruk, "built the walls", Epic of Gilgamesh
2494-2465: Ur-Nanshe: King of Lagash, border fights with Umma
2480-2461: Mes-Ane-pada: King of Ur (and Kish?) united Sumer
2466-2455: Akurgal, King of Lagash, son of Ur-Nanshe, lost ground to Umma
2454-2425-2405: Eannatum - Enannatum, Kings of Lagash, sons of Akurgal
2421-2410-2401: Elulu - Balulu, Kings of Ur
2404-2375: Entemena, King of Lagash, dug irrigation canal to Tigris river.
2400-2391: Shagkush-anna: King of Ur, "Priest King of Sumer, King of Nation"
2400-2391: Gish-Shag-ki-dug, King of Umma
2380-2361: Lugal-kinishe-dudu, King of Umma and overlord of Ur & Uruk made a treaty with Lagash
2351-2340: Uru-inim-gina (Uru-Ka-gina), King of Lagash famous for legal reforms.
2340-2316: Lugal-zage-si: King of Umma, sacked Lagash, known as "King of the Countries"
2340-2315: Sargon, King of Akkad, conquered Sumer, referred to as "King of the Four Quarters."
2315-2307: Rimus, King of Akkad, raided Elam and known for reign of terror until assassinated.
2306-2292: Manishtusu: King of Akkad, lost southern Sumer and was assassinated .
2300: Sargon's daughter Enheduana recorded as High Priestess of Ur.
2291-2255: Naram-Suen, King of Akkad, Sumer & Elam, deified as "The Mighty One."
2217-2193: Shar-kali-sharri: King of Akkad, lost Elam, raided Gutium, and assassinated.
2189-2169-2154: Dudu - Shu-Turul: Kings of Akkad, controlled Sumer during period of decline.
2155-2142: Ur-Baba: King of Lagash
2148-2147: La'arab: King of Gutium, conquered Akkad from east and raided Sumer.
2141-2122: Gudea: King of Lagash, son-in-law of Ur-Baba
2133-2113: Utu-hegal: King of Uruk, defeated foreign Gutium dynasty in 2130.
2112-2095: Ur-Nammu: King of Ur, famous for "Laws of Ur-Nammu"
2094-2047: Shulgi: King of Ur, son of Ur-Nammu
2046-2038-2029: Amar-suena - Shu-Suen: Kings of Ur, sons of Shulgi
2028-2004: Ibbi-Suen: King of Ur, son of Shu-Suen, ruled during period of invasions and crop failures.

Brief History-

History begins with the Sumerians, or so it is said. According to archaeologists, they came from the mountains of Elam or the Armenian plains, and settled (circa 5000 BC) in the swampy lands where the Tigris and Euphrates rivers formed a delta at the head of the Persian Gulf circa 5000 BC. They drained the swamps, channeled the floods, invented the wheel, tilled the fertile soil, and founded settlements which grew into the prosperous city-states of Eridu, Kish, Mari, Nippur, Lagash, Umma, Ur, and Uruk circa 3000 BC. Eridu is often associated with the location of the biblical Garden of Eden.

The DBA Summerian list begins properly in 3000 BC, which is presumeably the period when Gilgamesh rose to preeminence as King of Uruk. This was referred to as the Dynastic Period, with each of the independent city-states ruled by Priest-Kings, such as King Mis-anni-padda of Ur (c. 2500 B.C.). The end of the Dynastic Period is marked by a massive flood, which is often associated with the biblical story of Noah's Ark.

Following the flood, the southern city-states as far north as Kish were united under the rule of King Lugalzaggesi of Umma (2340 BC). But not for long. Around 2330 BC Sargon of Agade, a semitic king from the north, invaded Sumer and made it part of his expanding empire. From his capital at Akkad (later renamed Babylon under the Amorites), he subjugated the lands from the Persian Gulf to Cappadocia in south-eastern Turkey, ruling the first great empire of the ancient world for 56 years. But with the Hurrians, Hittites and other barbarians pressing against every border, Akkadia was engaged in almost constant war. After the reign of Sargon's grandson Naramsin, the strain of holding together the far flung empire became too great. The Gutians (natives of the Zagros Highlands to the east) overran Akkadia and much of northern Sumer (c. 2230, 2193 or 2180 BC), ending Sargon's Dynasty. With the Akkadians overwhelmed and under Gutian rule, the Sumerians regained nominal control over many of their city-states and in 2125, the Sumerian city of Ur rose up in revolt against Akkadia and was able to establish an independent Sumerian empire encompassing the city-states of southern Mesopotamia. Taking the offensive, King Utuhegal was able to expel the Gutians (c. 2120 or 2112?).

The DBA list comes to a close circa 2000 with the appearance of the Amorites, who migrated from the lands of Nimrod (upper Iraq) southward to overrun much of Mesopotamia. Sumerian city-states remained independent after a fashion until King Hammurabi of the Amorites founded the kingdom of Babylonia circa 1763 BC and absorbed the Sumerian cities into his realm.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That's what I can dig up at the moment. The source is http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/ancients.html

Which is a DBA army site. Tom Ryans is the guy who did two of those three articles. The Old/Middle Kingdom Egypt pages are down, though!

I'll get more stuff later, I have plenty of sites, so I'll post some more links as well... And I can personally do plenty of research for Minoans and Mycenaeans;).

Ciao!

-Gregory-

[Marshal Murat]

Old Kingdom Military(from osprey)
In the Old Kingdom, numerous tribes, or nomes recruited local militia, every man at a certain age was in it, and then the masses were drawn up for wars. The Pharoah or Warlord of Memphis, had a small nucleus of royal bodyguards that formed the nucleus of the army (as was, the bodyguard was usually the nucleus as they were elite) the bodyguards protected the governors of the nomes, and high ranking officals. The Vizier was a Commander and Chief, and then numerous others who took care of supplies, etc. The army was divided into Light and Heavy troops, with Nubia and Lybia providing mercenaries. Later in the Old Kingdom, the army was mostly made of Mercenaries and the militia were more loyal to thier nomes.

Middle Kingdom
During this time, Theban princes didn't make the same mistake as in the Old Kingdom. They instead formed a large egyptian element, with the militia now full time soldiers. Mercenaries were recuited for garrison service, with the Egyptians as the army. The army was all infantry, with the heavy troops in phalanx, the rest archers. The troops were based on the decimal system (smallest unit being 100, largest being 3000)

New Kingdom
After the Hyskos, the Egyptians had three things
Scale armor, Composite Bow, and Chariot.
Now there were 3 units to be used in battle.
Now militias were resevist force. Haremheb had 2 division, Seti I added another one (named Set after the god) And Rameses created the Ptah division. Soon after he raise the Phra division.
Each city was given a diety god, and they provided men to the division after which god the city had (Memphis provided men for the Ptah division, Thebes had Amun, and with each new city, a new division)

The nome militias would rotate thier men from army to reserve, to army again. The division was made up of 5,000 soldiers, and commanded by a general or prince. The Pharoah commanded the entire army.

The army was divided into "battalions" each with a specific weapon. The phalanx was armed with spear, and then with axe or a kopesh (the hand scythe weapon) Archers and slingers were in the army as well. The chariots were a intergral part of the army, but then became a seperate arm.

Mercenaries now began to form the backbone of the army. Sherden and Philistine warriors now formed the army, along with royal bodyguard.

Philistine military
The philistines were a heavy infantry group, armed with 2 heavy throwing spears, and a sword.

Israel,
This exludes Judah. The israeli army was formed of the tribe militia, each organized into units of 1,000, By Davids time, each tribe provided a certain arm (this info can be found in the Bible in Chronicles 1, XII) of the military.

Benjamin provided archers and slingers, 700 were ambidextrous (can use both hands) Gad, Reuben, and half Manasseh were sword and buckler with assorted archers. Zebulun were phalanx spearmen, Naphtali were spear and shield. Dan and Asher were "experts in war" Issacher were raiding and scouting. Levi wer border guards and garrison.

[Gregorius0202]

Again, Murat, nice information:D I really need to get in those darn Osprey books I ordered!

What about faction lists? There isn't a set one yet, is there? I think that would be one of the first tings that should be done, because from the factions/map, most things come down from there...

-Gregory-

[Marshal Murat]

Well, we should have
Ur, Uruk, Akkadia, Hittites, Assyria, and the others I mentioned.

[flip]

Ok, this is our list, from Komninos


Mycenaean Early High Late
Minoan Early High
Minion Early High Late
Pelasgian Early High
Thracian Early High Late
Peonean Early High Late
Illyrian Early High Late
Phrygian Late
Meon Late
Likian Late
Summer Early
Acadian Early
Babylonian High Late
Egyptian Early High Late
Nubian Early High Late
Syrian Early High Late
Lybian Early High Late
Canaanite Early High Late
Hittite High Late
Hyksos High
Midianite Early High Late
Assyrian High Late
Hebrew Late
Philistine Late
Phoenician Late

[Gregorius0202]

Okay, well, if the periods are like this:

Early-3000 BC to 2000 BC

High- 2000 BC to 1500 BC

Late- 1500 BC to 800 BC (or whatever the end date you chose was)

I don't know about plenty of those factions, and obviously guys like the Thracians or many of the other factions will have to have more 'unrealistic' forces, because we don't know much about their armies (just vague descriptions, etc...). The 2,000+ turn thing still get's me, but, whatever:p

-Gregory-

[komninos]

Hi all,

Last night I managed to get some time for the experimental map that you will soon see. It will come in a PSP (paint shop pro) format with layers. The first will be the satellite image (flip sorry about that but I redesigned some of the borders). The second has the areas that the map is divided.

The Map
Apparently there is a lot of info in the area so I will need your help in putting the correct area characteristics and naming them. I can name most of the areas near Greece but what I am looking is the ancient names of the Areas so Halicarnasus is definitely not the correct name ... but in case we don’t have anything else ...

Also ecological info will be needed. Earth has changed a lot since then. i.e. I heard that Old Egypt Kingdom was in a Savannah type land scale and near the Nile a tropical one.

Also can we transform the maps used by MTW. i.e. Lush landscape is not used but is the one that you get snow from time to time. So if we move Temperate to Lush, Arid to Temperate and make an Arid that will represent Tropical landscape things will look better what do you think.

The Factions
There is a huge number of factions. I know Thracians, Peoneans, and Illirians are very old in the Balkan region. Thracians offered help to the Trojans so they might appear in the High and late period with more or less a light troops. Others like Likian and Meon were Asia Minor remains of the disintegrating Hittite empire so they will use Hittite troops. Any way If you feel some faction is missing please do say so.

The Units
Due to missing information we used mostly the lists of DBA and things we know. What we plan is that factions will have very small number of special units. That they will built. All units will be bound to the areas where they come from. So if you like to get 8-shaped shields then you will have to go to Greece to get them. This is to reflect what most kingdoms did in ancient times. You will also find some mercenaries. A list of them will be available in an XLS format with some of there attributes. (Good, NO_armor, ... , etc). We will need some help in describing them more accurately. ~:grouphug:

First impressions
I managed to play a bit as Egypt and got my bat kicked by ... seaborne invading Rebels!!!! That was a surprise Rebel provinces did build armies and ships and for once they invaded!!! If this continues as the development goes on I think you will have your hand full even for 2000 years!

[The House of Khan]

Guys i am new to HTW but i need more!!!!!!!!!

You guys do a fantastic job and i think HTW plays better than the origianals,

one thing tho...the further back in time you go the less cohiesive the units get, ergo it could just end up with 1000 men a side smashing into each other in the middle like they used to, but hey whadda i know??

Keep it up guys!! :bow:

[ParthianWarrior]

[quote]Also ecological info will be needed. Earth has changed a lot since then. i.e. I heard that Old Egypt Kingdom was in a Savannah type land scale and near the Nile a tropical one.[quote]

Yes, Wasn't a part of Iran under water at the time also?

[Gregorius0202]

Komninos, awesome information!

"invading Rebels!!!! That was a surprise Rebel provinces did build armies and ships and for once they invaded!!!"

Ouch:\ But that's good. If the rebels continue to be hostile, it'll make the game a lot funner;D.

"The Units
Due to missing information we used mostly the lists of DBA and things we know. What we plan is that factions will have very small number of special units. That they will built. All units will be bound to the areas where they come from. So if you like to get 8-shaped shields then you will have to go to Greece to get them. This is to reflect what most kingdoms did in ancient times. You will also find some mercenaries. A list of them will be available in an XLS format with some of there attributes. (Good, NO_armor, ... , etc). We will need some help in describing them more accurately"

Yeah, the DBA lists are helpful. So, I'm figuring you're thinkin between 4-6 unique units for each faction? What about figuring out what 'regular units' there will be. Or will unique units be enough to fill the ranks of each army?

"The Factions
There is a huge number of factions. I know Thracians, Peoneans, and Illirians are very old in the Balkan region. Thracians offered help to the Trojans so they might appear in the High and late period with more or less a light troops. Others like Likian and Meon were Asia Minor remains of the disintegrating Hittite empire so they will use Hittite troops. Any way If you feel some faction is missing please do say so."

Yeah, the faction list looks great to me. I'm interested in Achaean Warfare mainly, myself, so lots of those weren't even apparent to me quickly:D Very nice job with that list! Once again, could you give your latest idea on the exact years each era will cover? I think that maybe making them each an even amount of years would be better, like this:

Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC.

That'd give each era 750 years, if I'm not mistaken...

Well, good stuff, once again! Adios!

-Gregory-

[komninos]

Hi Gregorius0202,

Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC

Well yes these look good!

So here is the map and the unit list these cover all the eras. The fist letters befor the "_" designate there Origin so GR_ are Greeks SUM_ are Summer.

The files are here (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/BATW-info.zip).
Please we need to name the regions and get there attributes doun.
Here is the map (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/BATW-map-idnt.png) with the identifiers on it.

TERRAIN
=======
ARID
LUSH
ROCK_DESERT
SAND_DESERT
TEMPERATE

REGION ATTRIBUTES
================
FLAT
HILLY
MOUNTAIN
PLAINS

[Gregorius0202]

Hey Komninos,

I'll check out the units/map after school today (it's early mornin' over here, currently...) I don't have Medieval: Total War/H:TW installed on this PC at the moment, but I don't think these files have anything to do with them, so I'll be all right, correct? I'm interested in the unit list:D

"Early- 3,000 BC to 2,250 BC
High- 2,249 BC to 1,500 BC
Late-1,449 BC to 750 BC

Well yes these look good!"

Cool, sounds good;)

On a different subject-

I'm in need of a map of the area of Greece (very small provinces), and I know that you're pretty darn good at making them Kom'! So, although this isn't the place to discuss it, if you'd get me your email address, I'd be able to explain more in-depth the situation. I know you've got a life and all, so, I'm in no rush! Lemme' know if you can get me some help!

Thanks!

-Gregory-

[komninos]

I'm in need of a map of the area of Greece (very small provinces), and I know that you're pretty darn good at making them Kom'! So, although this isn't the place to discuss it, if you'd get me your email address, I'd be able to explain more in-depth the situation. I know you've got a life and all, so, I'm in no rush! Lemme' know if you can get me some help!

Well for that ... please refer to the big thread in this forum ... or just get HTW and your map will be there ~;)

[Gregorius0202]

"Well for that ... please refer to the big thread in this forum ... or just get HTW and your map will be there"

Oh, I didn't think about the HTW map (doh!) Would you mind if I used that for the Age of Heroes MOD? And I need someone to do BIF's, do you know anyone who's good at it without a MOD job at the moment:D? I'd ask if you guys would like to try it out as an add on campaign to this Bronze Age one for the HTW title, but that's a bit much to be askin', so I'm tryin' to (unsuccessfully, at the moment) get a team together for it.

[komninos]

Gregorius0202,

Yes you can use the map. I was planning an Bronze Age HTW add-on mostly as a test platform. We will be making bifs for the BATW so no worries try to lern some stuff on the stupid coordinate system cause we will need it.

RTW is on the back of my mind though. When the Demo will be out we need to take a good look at the file system.

Cheers

[Gregorius0202]

"try to lern some stuff on the stupid coordinate system cause we will need it."

Coordinate system for the map? *Medieval, If I'm followin' ya' correctly*.

As soon as I get VI installed in this PC, which should happen tonight, I'll see what I can do about tryin' to figure out whatever you have in mind for me to do to help.

"I was planning an Bronze Age HTW add-on mostly as a test platform."
"RTW is on the back of my mind though."

I was thinkin'... Maybe for Rome: Total War, my Age of Heroes campaign would be a good testing ground for the larger, more advanced campaigns, since we won't really know what we're up against at the time, and with all of the cities close together and such, we can test the new borders, etc...

"Yes you can use the map."

Thanks. ~:)

Adios!

-Gregory-

(p.s.-Komninos, call me Greg ~;) )

[SicilianVespers]

Are you guys planning to add any central mediterreanean factions? Like the Siculans/Sicanians, Etruscans or Sardi?

These would all be perfect candidates for factions. The Siculan culture at the time was similar to Mycenaean, Rock-cut tholos tombs, Palaces, even down to the rapier swords. They also had extensive trade connections with Greece and Troy.

Kokalos was the king of Sicania/Sikelia at the time Minos arrived. His Capital, Kamikos, was built by Daedalus himself.

All three were later involved in the Sea Peoples invasions:

Siculans = Shekelesh
Sardi = Shardana
Etruscans = Tyrsenoi

[Gregorius0202]

Well, those three seem like very good aspects! The Sardi will definitely be in, because the Shardana were primarily involved in the 'sea-peoples' bit, as far as I Know, so although they may be called the 'sea-peoples' or a similar thing, their representation is sure to be in..!

Where exactly was the Silucan Culture based, and who influenced them... I have yet to hear but their name:\ It seems as though you're indicating their culure was quite like that on Crete at the time. Some more information for my own behalf would be great, as I'm sure debating their addition to the list (which they might be on, as I can't recall if they are or not!) would be something worth doing if we could know more about them!

I'm not sure if we know much, or anything at all, to fit Etruscan culture before the Dark Age, so if there isn't much, havin' them in may cause problems, as their last chance to enter the game (in the late era) would be 1,500 BC:\

But don't worry, for Rome, we'll probably do a couple of small projects for 'tests', and I'll be sure we do one in Archaic/hellenic Italy, so you'll get all of the Etruscans you want!

-Gregory-

[vodkafire]

I was under the impression that the Sea People WERE the Mycenians (+ sardinians and some others), and they were either a result of or somehow related to the Trojan War(they were refugees, like Odysseus, that scattered away from home). They later settled to become the Phoenecians and Phillistines. Anyways, this was what I read.

[Gregorius0202]

I'm confident in saying that is NOT correct... The Sea people's had little connection with the Greeks, if any. It is in fact much more likely that they were connected to the Trojans than the Greeks, and the Shardana and Sardinians (lol, can't recall if those are the same guys at the moment), etc, would make up the ranks of the sea peoples, who apparently have MUCH more eastern influence in their arms and armor than Greek, and it's not likely any connection was made between them except for trading, possibly.

Using the works of Rovert Morkot (who even states all of this is very controversial) I can tell you that he believes the Sea peoples, Dorians, and Phyrgians all invaded practically simultaneously in different area's of the Mediterranean. These invasions are, according to him, traced to Illyria, Thrace, Libya, Sardinia (or just by the Shardana peoples) and in the area inhabited by the Arzawans. It is suggested The Shardana actually didn't come to Sardinia until after their invasion was repulsed by Rameses III of Egypt, and that they colonized this place after their defeat by his army.

I can provide more information later...

-Gregory-

[TheSilverKnight]

Hi,

Apparently the Bronze Age TW has captivated many of you. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Apart from the new map that when it will be ready it will be released in the Mapping Library Project thread, it will have a number of new units.

The Map it self will initially be ready for HTW use but with only a few units and buildings so an experienced moder can make an HTW add-on with it. Then again I might do it while making the Bronze Age TW.

It will start at 3000BC, pass to the High period at 2000BC in Late at 1100 and end at 800BC. This will fairly connect it to HTW. This coincides with the rise and fall of the Mycenaean’s. In 3000BC they were just a small city rising to dominance in the surrounding area, in 2000BC they are a powerful city but they still have many enemies in there area, Minoans, Minians, Pelasgians all dominate several parts of Greece, plus they all struggle for sea trade roots to Egypt and the Middle East. At 1100BC the Mycenaean power is undisputed they control the most Greece and all the sea roots. They go to war with Hittite Empire that was declining. Suddenly in about 1200BC they disappear while the social structure is crumbling.

The units you are looking here are Greek units of the early and high period. The Octaspis is the pinnacle of the Mycenaean war engineering. The old tower shield was substituted by a new type. The 8-shaped shied permitted the better use of the pike but also its shape allowed it to be used for shuffling and opening britches in the enemy formation thus exposing the enemy and making them vulnerable to attack.

Have you actually managed ot make it so it's in the B.C. era?? That'd be so awesome if you did. I'd download HTW just to see how you did that ~D

[Angadil]

Well, if one puts the razing and burning of the Mycenean cities typically attributed to the Dorians (who were Greeks, right?) within the widespread, roughly synchronous destruction ascribed to the "Sea Peoples" one could argue that some of the "Sea Peoples" were Greeks... However, it is probably better to reconsider the whole "Sea Peoples" concept...

And for that purpose, I would recommend a look at R. Drews' book, The End of the Bronze Age. It provides a very useful critical discussion of who the Sea Peoples *may* (or may not) have been and I believe he is rather successful in showing how preconceptions, assumptions etc... have colored and biased the perceptions of this group.

Drews favors a vision of the Sea Peoples as an assorted collection of "barbarians" living on the fringes of the "civilized" palatial societies of the Late Bronze Age. Not peoples/nations engaged in any sort of long distance Volkwanderung. These barbarians had at times been raiders and at times mercenaries for their richer neighbors, but eventually turned against them at a larger scale than the previous marauding and wrought widespread havoc. So, in continental Greece it was Dorians. In Anatolia many attribute the destruction of Hattusa and the other Hittite centers within the arc of the Halys to the Kaskans, not long after Suppiluliumas II, the last known Hittite king, had to fight the first and only Hittite naval battle off Cyprus, presumably facing a different threat (he won that one). In Egypt, Ramses III had to beat not only the "Sea Peoples", but also two Libyan invasions. Merneptah before him had also turned back a Libyan invading force added to which were several of the groups later to be found among the "Sea Peoples" that Ramses III defeated some thirty years later.

What seems clear in any case is that it is hard to think of the guys under the "Sea Peoples" label (whether barbarians attacking their neighbors for plunder or migrating peoples in search of a home) as any sort of homogeneous group. They seem to have been a truly motley crew.

Btw, I see Drew's book is offered by amazon.com jointly with Collapse of the Bronze Age by Manuel Robbins for about 40 bucks. Can't say anything about that one, but Drews' is definitely worth reading, not only because of the Sea Peoples. Good review of Late Bronze Age warfare too. You don't need to agree with his conclusions, but the evidence he reviews and synthetizes is very valuable (Yes Greg, I know you've heard this recommendation from me before ~:) ).

Cheers
A.

[Gregorius0202]

Great information Angadil. It seems Drew pretty much either collaborated with Morkot, or they both think alike! I merely got my information from some maps in an awesome Greek Atlas that's currently out by Pengiun, and has a section discussing the 'Sea peoples'. As you said, Dorians, Libyans, and many other large 'barbaric' forces seemed to have collapsed inwards on the Mediterranean Basin's larger, more civilized factions all at about the same time, as far as most people believe! These movements by each tribe are shown on the map I have, and it's quite interesting!

Although I couldn't go into detail about it or get into much of a conversation with you, since I've only got an atlas sittin' in front of me, and you have a really reliable source on the information, I can see where each source has rather the same Idea as to the "myth" of the Sea-people's!

I'll look into your recommendation, as well! My next set of purchases will likely include the following, though...

Warfare in the Classical World
Osprey Military, The Zulus
Osprey Military, The Zulu War
Osprey Military, Zulu 1816-1906
Osprey Military, Aztec, Mixtec and Zapotec Armies
Osprey Military, The Aztec Armies
Osprey Military, The Army of Alexander The Great
Osprey Military, The Ancient Greeks
Osprey Military, Arthur and the Anglo-Saxon Wars

These, coupled with what I already have, as far as the works I'm interested in go (mainly ones with din depth information about arms and armor, since I'm interested in reeactment!)...

Osprey Military, Armies of the Ancient Middle-East
Osprey Military, Scythians 700 BC-300 BC
Osprey Military, The Spartan Army
Osprey Military, The Thracians 700 BC-46 AD
Osprey Military, The Ancient Assyrians
Osprey Military, New Kingdom Egypt
(All of the above have been ordered, but haven't arrived as of this time!)

Peter Connolly, Greece and Rome at War
Peter Connolly, The Ancient Greece of Odysseus
Peter Connolly, The Greek Armies
Peter Connolly, The Roman Army
Pengiun Atlas to Ancient Greece
Warrriors and Warlords, the Art of Angus McBride
Body Armor, Woodsman Savage & Hall
Weapons, by the Diagram Group
Swords and other Edged weapons, numerous Authors, including Connolly.

If there are any you think you may be interested in Angadil, just lemme' know, and I'll let ya' know what they're about;).

Adios!

-Gregory-

[flip]

Drew's book its great, I bought it by Amazon severall years ago, and pik it recently for lecture.

kom, if you can buy it

[komninos]

Hi all,

Lots of posts here ... and no time ... typical me ~;)

Any way,
Please check the map it is from Greece till Mesopotamia so no central European or Italian factions. Also please can someone help by proposing names and regional attributes??? I can make a wild guess but it would be just that!

Sea People were most probably of Greek origin Greg, sorry ... there are several reasons for that.
1. They appeared as an aggressive force about the time of the Volcano exploded so there is a good chance of a migration force after the destruction of their main city in Thera. Probably they were driven away by the increased power of Mycenaeans.
2. Pelasgians were one of the oldest Greek tribes in the Aegean, the name read actually Sea People Pelagos = Open Sea and Pelasgos might read Pegalu ios (if someone knows better ancient Greek than me correct me, I am an Engineer not a linguist) that translates to son of the open sea.
3. The Sea People finally settled in the Lebanon area. The two kingdoms that appeared after the migration of the sea people and foreign to the existing cultures were Phoenicians and Philistines. Both words are strangely Greek in sound. Phoenicians most probably come from the word Phoenix a mythical bird that existed in Greek culture. I have hearted of a legend that the first king was Phoenix son of Minos this relates them to the Cretans. Philistines are mostly known though the bible. So the name might be changed. Stile can’t neglect the first part Phili or Phil that was used as an additive to classical Greek names and it means friend (usally of the second part of the name ie philolaos would read friend of the people) but I can’t get a clue on the second part of the word.

Dorians were not Sea People they were actually mountain people living in the mountain region of Central Greece there was a region also in that area simply named Doris (similarities???). Probably they allied to Thebs during their decent they mainly destroyed the center of civilization Mycenae that led to the destruction of their empire but they also went north in to Macedon. They claimed decent from Hercules who probably was more than just a mythical hero ... more of a General might be closer to the truth so when his descendants were exiled they reclaimed there land.

Remember decent does not mean travel from the north to the south but from inland to the sea hence the Decent of the Myriad that was from South to North. Unlike common belief Myceneans were just too powerfull to be overrun by some barbarian foreign tribe. There Chariot force was a charging one not of a ranged attack and by that time the relaid mostly on heavy infantry that chariot. There armies were well ordered, well trained, superbly equipped and with excellent leadership and finally they were at the top of there prime not at some decadent part like the Hittites. A task like that would be equivalent of the Taliban beating back the US with out any help.

Dorians were definitely no anyone and definitely were not alone and the timing might have helped. It all happened about the time the Trojan War ended. Myceneans have lost a lot of men beating back not the Trojans but probably several Hittite derivative kingdoms or the Hittites. This led probably to a civil unrest (remember Greek armies were and remained vastly civic) and a lot of able rulers were lost. This is depicted in the tragedies of the Classical period. New blood rose to power that renounced the oaths of allegiance. So probably the whole kingdom collapsed inwardly in a civil war (typically Greek) and the Dorians simply found a way to get what they wonted. They remained in history as the destroyers of Mycenaean Civilization. This is more logically believable.

[Angadil]

Hmm... some comments (and, yes, some of them largely draw from Drews...)

I suppose it would be necessary to ask what definition of "Sea Peoples" we are using... AFAIK, the term was first coined by Gaston Maspero in the late 19th century, by shortening the previous "peoples of the Mediterranean sea" that egyptologists had used to refer to the collection of ethnic groups (Lukka, Ekwesh, Tursha, Shekelesh, and Shardana) listed as part (not in very large numbers, judging from the Egyptian records of casualties) of the invading Libyan force in the reign of Merneptah. Maspero took the designation and transformed it into a proper name for the enemies that attempted to invade Egypt from the east in the reign of Ramses III. So the (in)famous label is a relatively modern creation and has nothing to do with Pelasgians even if the speculative linguistics were right (cannot judge that myself either). Oh, and Maspero used the term to designate the invaders from the east that Ramses III defeated and *only* them. When he did that, Mycenae, Tirynx, Knossos, Pylos, Hattusas, Ugarit and all or most the destroyed palatial centers whose razing was later ascribed to the "Sea Peoples" had yet to be excavated.

The Egyptians however already had names for those invaders from the east. They were Peleset and Tjekker (aided by Shekelesh, Denyen, Weshesh and, perhaps, Tursha). I'd suppose Peleset is no longer Greek sounding. From it come Philistines, Palestine.... As for the Phoenicians, my understanding is that their name came from the purple dye they manufactured and monopolized. That color being something like Phoenicos (?) in Greek as in the scientific name of the flamingo, maybe the real bird behind the phoenix myth: Phoenicopterus=purple wings. From Egyptian documents is clear that both Peleset and Tjekker were people from the Levant. For example, they are often referred to as "Asiatics" (using the same term often found, for example, in New Kingdom accounts of victories in Canaan) and Rameses boasts of triumphs in the "land of the Peleset".


Unlike common belief Myceneans were just too powerfull to be overrun by some barbarian foreign tribe. There Chariot force was a charging one not of a ranged attack and by that time the relaid mostly on heavy infantry that chariot. There armies were well ordered, well trained, superbly equipped and with excellent leadership and finally they were at the top of there prime not at some decadent part like the Hittites

Evidence? Sources? Qadesh is considered exceptionally well documented for an ancient battle (records from both sides of the conflict some of them quite detailed) and there is still dispute about what really happened and who won... Is Mycenean warfare so much better attested? It should be for such sweping statements, but I doubt it... For example supporting the idea of Mycenean chariots carrying archers is the fact that alongside the Linear B chariot tablets from Knossos are tablets referring to stores of arrows and bows and to bow-making and bowyers... As for the argument "they were so great barbarians could not have defeated them while at their prime"... Well, first, history is reasonably rich in examples of barbarians inflicting defeats on "civilized" armies. Second, the argument is also logically flawed: from the beginning one option is excluded due to a preconception, thus becoming circular. Third, you are inconsistent, later you speak of unrest and civil wars (evidence for that?) Wouldn't that be decadence? Finally, what little the civilized dwellers of the cities have left written about the enemies that so critically threatened them at the end of the Bronze Age typically speaks of "barbarians" and "hordes".


Greek armies were and remained vastly civic

Again, evidence? A reliance on professionals and a limited importance of levies, conscription, militias, etc. seems the norm for almost all the palatial centers of the Bronze Age for which enough documentation has survived (Ugarit, Nuzzi, etc... ). Probably the Myceneans do not fall into the "enough documentation" category, but the tablets from Knossos and Pylos seem to point in that same direction. In any case, no basis for such a bold assertion.

I hope I am not sounding too terse. Certainly, it's not my intention, but it's late here, English is not my first language and I'm awful with the emoticons... ~:)


@Greg: Thanks for the offer. All of your purchases sound tempting (in fact, I recently got the Scythian and Thracian ones myself)... but I'd just be very grateful for some comment on the New Kingdom, Ancient Middle East and Alexander ones once you check them out... Ah, if Yadin's and Stillman & Tallis' books weren't so outrageously expensive...

Cheers
A.

[Gregorius0202]

@ Kom'...

Look at the first paragraph in Angadil's post above mine... That explains quite well what I think of as "sea-peoples", although my knowledge is limited in comparison to his own!

""peoples of the Mediterranean sea" that egyptologists had used to refer to the collection of ethnic groups (Lukka, Ekwesh, Tursha, Shekelesh, and Shardana) listed as part (not in very large numbers, judging from the Egyptian records of casualties) of the invading Libyan force in the reign of Merneptah."

Right there... Also, I wasn't referring to Dorians, Thracians, or several other groups as being considered 'Sea-peoples' at all, but merely that the timing of their massed invasions of the Mediterranean kingdoms coincided with those of the Sea Peoples.

Thera, if I'm correct in saying so, although having an advanced architechual and likely a good navy for it's time, would be too insignificant in size to have been the roots of the Sea-peoples, who would appear in vast numbers only 200 years later. Thera was destroyed in 1500 BC, and this date, in fact, is BEFORE the third Citadel age in Greece, and the Mycenaean conquests would be limited by this time at sea, as it is known and argued by Thucydides that the first large navies of the Mycenaeans were likely after this time, as they gained power before the Trojan War (which would happen some 300-350 years after Thera's destruction!).

Although Greek origin is possible, it is HIGHLY unlikely that it would be such a recent event, such as the destruction of Thera, that spread the Sea-peoples through the Mediterranean, from my personal opinion...

Once again, referring to the works of Morkot, who is more of a researching type than one to make up his own theories, as far as his atlas work is concerned, traces the 'probable' sources of the invasion of 'sea-peoples' to Libya, Crete, Sardinia, and some Northern places, which would also include the Dorian invasions, as well as Thracians...

I personally have limited interest in the subject, as we really DON'T know, and I tend to stay away from conversations where I can't prove someone wrong, or be proven wrong myself... If you see what I mean.

"Any way,
Please check the map it is from Greece till Mesopotamia so no central European or Italian factions. Also please can someone help by proposing names and regional attributes??? I can make a wild guess but it would be just that!"

I'm gonna' pick up a couple more versions of Ancient Middle-Eastern atlases like I have now, so I'll be all over that job! I have trade routs, trading goods, crops, stuff like that... So attributes shouldn't be too hard, if I get a hold of the right maps! Don't fear...:D

@Angadil-

Once I get those books, and read through them, I'll give you a hollar on how they turn out;)

-Gregory-

[vodkafire]

So how will it simulate the difference between iron and bronze weapons? I believe the Hittites had iron weapons since either 1500 or 1200 BC and irons did not really spread to other civilizations until after their destruction (in the city states era). However, the Dorians also had iron as well as the Philistines/Phoenicians(maybe through trade?) All the other civilizations (Mycenean, Eqyptian, Assyrian) did not have iron until the Hittites were reduced to city states and the Israelites got theirs from the Philistines.

[Gregorius0202]

Well, when the third age starts in 1,500, the units for the age will become available. We'll probably make it so that when this happens, any iron weapons that are going to be introduced will be at this time, whether they're from 1,500 BC or 800 BC, since it's all in the third age, and they will merely be designed as iron, and not Bronze!

-Gregory-

[komninos]

This is a problem actually ...
TW engine does not "auto-update" units so you can be in late while you will still have early units. The huge time span though and active game play (lots of combat) might help in smoothing this out and make a transition period of some (20-30) moves where the new units will cover 90% of an army.

The difference in iron weapons can't be really simulated in TW. A sword is a sword and a good swordsman will know how to use it no matter what it is. The difference has to be put in the armor piercing flag but that is not good either. Probably new units will have better defence values in armor. So it might be simulated by the reduction of the armor effectiveness.

Angadil, first don’t worry about your English most of as have it as a second language. Now on Dorians, I was mostly pointing that they were not some kind of foreign “barbarian” race. I have read many documents that point that there was a different culture living and Greeks descended from the north migrating here. If you live in Greece you know this is not the best thing to do ... the logical would be to migrate from Greece to the North (from an arid and dry to a fertile land where rivers are actually flowing all the year round). Achaians, Pelasgians, Ioneans, Dorians are simple people living in the area of modern Greece in different regions and there names point even in modern time the places where they came from and migrated.
Dorians took advantage of what might have been yet another civil war to come to power unfortunately they were and remained less “cultured” and more inward thinking than the rest plunging the Greek world in the dark ages two times.
If there was a barbarian threat the main kingdoms would unite again. The era is very similar to the Midle ages is social structure.
The Greek culture was very warlike in all times so I goes they would be even in this age. The professionals would form the strong part of the army but the core was civic this tradition was passed to the Classical Greeks. These professionals would form the chariot force the Epetes (Knights in middle ages). But you are right the heavy charge of the Epetes would usually end the fight there and then as it was with the Knights. (Thins also make me think that I should use negative charge values to increase the range from -9 to 9). So you see the vastly civic was mostly pointing the numerical part the outcome would still be decided on a flat-out charge at least in the early age. Later with the pike unit used by the Greeks things became more tactical. In Late period (of the mod) things should be very complex. The Tojan war might be a special case since they could not transport a large number of chariots (but they might have built them there) so it was mostly an infantry force fight.

[Gregorius0202]

"This is a problem actually ...
TW engine does not "auto-update" units so you can be in late while you will still have early units. The huge time span though and active game play (lots of combat) might help in smoothing this out and make a transition period of some (20-30) moves where the new units will cover 90% of an army.

The difference in iron weapons can't be really simulated in TW. A sword is a sword and a good swordsman will know how to use it no matter what it is. The difference has to be put in the armor piercing flag but that is not good either. Probably new units will have better defence values in armor. So it might be simulated by the reduction of the armor effectiveness."

Oh, I see what you guys mean... I was under the impression he merely wanted units to have Iron 'looking' weapons, and not actual upgrades for it...

Well, I can actually give a solution to this problem as well. Although there is no auto upgrade, new units can be introduced in each age. During the Late age, for example, we may have several Hittite units with grey weapons representing iron, of course. In order to make these troops 'weapons' appear better, we can merely make their attack power a bit more, to represent the effectiveness of their weapons over the Bronze ones used by other units on the field....

I think this would work, but if there are any other thoughts, speak up:D

Ciao..!

-Gregory-

[Angadil]

Komminos. I never intended to imply that either Dorians or Myceneans were non-Greeks. When I used "barbarian" for the Dorians I was only referring to lower levels of material culture and, quite likely, complexity of social structure relative to the Myceneans. No emphasis on the "foreigner" connotation. In fact, in my posts I adhered to Drews' thesis that the destroyers of cities at the end of the Bronze Age were often non-civilized, dirt-poor groups living in their immediate vicinity. Talk about bad neighbors... ~:) In any case, in my understanding both Dorians and Myceneans were Greeks. Or, perhaps more precisely, Greek-speaking peoples (although of different dialects: North Greek for the Dorians and the South Greek of the Linear B tablets for the Myceneans).

Cheers
P.

[komninos]

OK, dialects vary heavily in this time, Cultures too. Minoans were a peaceful and devoted people that relayed on there excellent navy to defend them and I guess the same goes for the Cycladic people there cities had no walls and there arms and armor was not heavily developed. Mycenaean cities on the other side had heavy multilayered walls and there arms and armor was developed heavily over the ages.

Anyway I will post again the unit list but this time in XLS format that will have there attributes (class, armor, weapons ... and time periods). We need descriptions and an acknowledgment that these are fairly OK. (I have not yes entered the Iron-bronze simulation so in that they are a bit flat). If you don’t have MS Excel go to the www.openoffice.org and get it. (~50MB). This is really needed for the correct simulation of each period.


Sugestion (1) - Continuity of the units i.e. Summer only lasted in the first age, but a player might make it till the end what units will he be able to use?

Sugestion (2) - We can’t simulate the appearance of a nation. Should we have them from the beginning as weaklings? We can also use the no-King trick so they disappear in the first move and then they are response in random.


Sugestion (3) - I had the idea of binding units to regions and not nations/cultures. I though on that and I fill this might not be 100% true. So I am thinking of making a “State rule” building. It will take ~10 – 20 years to develop and it will pacify the province. All provinces will have a high unrest value but this building will calm things down. When this building is built then you will be able to build your own units in this province. It will be bind to culture so people of the same culture will not need it. It will slow down conquest a lot since you will e fighting a rebellion after rebellion till the province is pacified, colonized and ruled by you people.


Sugestion (4) - Caltures.
Catholic - Greek (can’t simulate Mycenaean and Minoan)
Orthodox - Egypt
Muslim - Mesopotamian
Pagan - Barbarian tribes (Libya, North Balkan, East and south Caspian ...)

[Angadil]

I'v been looking at your list of factions and times for them and the latest suggestions from Komminos and I have a number of suggestions comments...

First, what seems a relatively glaring omission: The Empire of Mitanni. Core established largely on the left bank of the Euphrates (Hanigalbat), but in its moment of glory it controlled lands in southeastern Anatolia (Kizzuwadna) and Assyria that was actually turned into a vassal (not for very long, though). The king of Mitanni was one of the "Great Kings", a sort of select club at the top of the hierarchy of rulers of the Middle and Late Bronze Age who mutually acknowledged each other as peers. Members were Egypt, Hatti, Babylonia, Assyria, Ahhiyawa (Mycenae)... and Mitanni. Mitanni was a major player in the international scene, far more active than, let's say, kassite Babylon. It fought against Egypt, Assyria and, almost routinely, the Hittites who eventually subdued them.

Minor omission: the Kaskans. Roughly in the area of the kingdom of Pontus in classical times. A constant thorn in the Hittites side from the very beginning of the kingdom of Hatti. Never subdued and capable of overrunning large tracts of the Hittite homelands (they seem to have raided Hattusa itself more than once) if the latter's showed any hint of weakness. They never evolved into an organized political entity (kingdom), although at least once a leader rose to prominence and agglutinated the Kaskans around him. The Hittite texts remarked that feat by stating that he "didn't rule in the Kaskan manner".

Comment: Likians. Why only in Late? The Likians were the Lukka people that appear in numerous Bronze Age texts and they were important well before the fall of the Hittite empire. For example, in the Amarna archives in the days of Akhenaton, they are recorded as carrying out large scale piratical raids on both Cyprus and the coast of Egypt itself. Hittite rule upon them was at best nominal. Similar to the Kaskans they never formed an unified kingdom for most of their history. And that leads me to...

The level of detail you guys seem to propose for the Balkans throughout the three Ages is not matched for other areas. Anatolia, for example. You don't seem to have hardly anyone there in Early and, to some extent, High. However, Sargon campaigned against Nur-Dagan, king of Purushanda (southeast Anatolia) and Naram-Sin fought against the kings Zipani of Kanes and Pamba of Hatti. In the 19th century the Assyrians established merchant colonies in Anatolia and they arranged numerous treaties about taxes, services, etc... with the kings of the indigenous cities of Nesa (Kanes), Hattusa, Kussara and others. During the second phase of the merchant colonies, the kings of Kussara, Pithana and his son Anitta, achieved a certain hegemony. They captured Nesa and transferred their capital there.

Finally, I hope you guys make this work for RTW. I do not think that the diplomatic system of MTW can adequately acommodate how the Bronze Age Empires worked. Generally, they did not really annexed lands, but rather established client or vassal kingdoms (often substituting a ruler for some more "understanding" relative) that acknowledged overlordship and sent "gifts", but remained nominally independent and mantained some room for manouver. Hence the distinction between Great Kings, and plain, vanilla kings... The empire may or may not leave garrisons. When conflict arose, a Great King could summon all or most of his vassals to his assistance and they would come with their own troops. The option of client kingdoms is explicitly mentioned for RTW, so this way of doing things might be replicated...

Uf, long stuff... I hope I'm not sounding too critical? This mod is an extremely attractive idea. ~:)

Cheers
A.

[komninos]

Hi Angadil,

I know there are omissions and that’s why I posted it so please if you feal there is something missing or should be changed post the faction list with the changes ... one thing though every faction has a rather long list of things that have to be done in order to become playable so lets not over do it.

The detail in the Balkan area is because I would like to cause problems for the faction in the area, Myceneans will not grow as fast as the Eastern faction that have space to grow. But as I said I know there are omissions so please do fill them up.

TW never had a good diplomacy level ~:( for any period. The problem with RTW is that till we are in position to mod it we have to decipher its files that will take some time plus we then have to build tools to work with them that will take even more time. So don't expect anything worth while till about a year after the RTW is out. On the other hand if we work as we did with HTW we can have a first working beta till Xmas

[Pericles]

The Sea Peoples

At about the time of the Sea Peoples' invasions (circa 1200 BC), Mycenean supremacy ended, and about 100 years later the Dorians invaded from the north and replaced the Mycenean civilization.

Scholars have debated this issue for years. But no one truly knows who those Sea peoples were.

Even the ancient Egyptians (who were invaded by the Sea Peoples) did not know who these Sea Peoples were.

If the Myceneans had been these Sea Peoples (pirates), they would have been easily identifiable by the other cutures existing at that time.

More than likely, the Sea Peoples were part of the huge migrations of unknown peoples that occurred in this part of the world during this time.


Sea Peoples

Sea Peoples is the term used in ancient Egyptian records of ship-faring raiders who drifted into the eastern shores of the Mediterranean and attempted to enter Egyptian territory during the late 19th dynasty, and especially year 5 of Rameses III of the 20th Dynasty.


Historic Records

The earliest mention of the Sea People proper is in an inscription of the Egyptian king Merneptah, whose rule is usually dated from 1213 BC to 1204 BC. Merneptah states that in the fifth year of his reign (1208 BC) he defeated an invasion of an allied force of Libyans and the Sea People, killing 6,000 soldiers and taking 9,000 prisoners.

About 20 years later the Egyptian king Ramses III was forced to deal with another invasion of the Sea Peoples, this time allied with the Philistines. In the mortuary temple he built in Thebes Ramses describes how, despite the fact "no land could stand before" the forces of the Sea People and that they swept through "Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, and Alashiya" destroying their cities, he defeated them in a sea battle. He gives the names of the tribes of the Sea People as including: the Peleset, the Tjeker, the Shekelesh, the Denyen, and the Weshesh. However, because this list is identical to the one Merneptah included in his victory inscription and because Ramses also describes several fictitious victories on his temple walls, some Egyptologists believe that he never actually fought the Sea Peoples, but only claimed the victories of Merneptah as his own - a common ancient Egyptian practice.

A Sea People appear in another set of records problematically dated around the early 12th century BC. Ammurapi, the last king of Ugarit (c.1191 BC - 1182 BC) received a letter from the Hittite king Suppliluliuma II warning him about the "Shikalayu who live on boats" who are perhaps the same people as the Shekelesh mentioned in Merneptah's list. It may be relevant that shortly after he received this communication, Ammurapi was overthrown and the city of Ugarit sacked, never to be inhabited again.


Theories about the Sea Peoples

The abrupt end of several civilizations in the decades traditionally dated around 1200 BC have caused many ancient historians to hypothesize that the Sea People caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mittani kingdoms. However, Marc Van De Mieroop and others have argued against this theory on several points. Grimal argues that the kingdoms of the Mittani, Assyria, and Babylon were more likely destroyed by a group who dwelled on the edges of the settled lands called by the Akkadian word habiru. Another argument Grimal makes is that the attempted Sea People invasion of Egypt that Ramses III foiled is now seen as nothing more than a minor skirmish, the records of his victories on his temple walls being greatly exaggerated. Though it is clear from the archeological excavations that Ugarit, Ashkelon and Hazor were destroyed about this time, Carchemish was not and other cities in the area such as Byblos and Sidon survived unscathed.

Another theory concerning the Sea People, based on their recorded names, is that they may have been formed of people involved in the Greek migrations of this period, either the Greek-speaking invaders (identifying the "Ekwesh" with the Achaeans and the "Denyen" with the Dananoi, an ancient name for the Greek people). This theory implies that the Philistines were part of this Greek-speaking confederacy.

Lack of definite information about these ancient forerunners of the Vikings is the chief cause of their mystery, rather than anything concerning their intrinsic nature. As abruptly as they enter history, the Sea People leave it.


More Information:

The Sea Peoples are one of the enigmas of ancient history, though their culture has perhaps been the single most influencial legacy in the evolution of civilization. Pirates, noted for their advanced weaponry most commonly identified as Phoenicians (Puntians/Puntites), they are said to have first appeared ruling Tylos/Dilmun (Bahrain) in the Arabian Gulf as early as the end of the 4th millennium BC perhaps stranded there following severe flooding in Mesopotamia. They maintained trade routes on the coasts around the Arabian peninsula from that time until the Islamic period but are most famous for over-running Egypt & the eastern Mediterranean around 900 BC (Revised Chronology) or 1200 BC (Traditional Chronology). The collection of port city kingdoms they occupied was known as Phoenicia or Sidonia from the name of the most importan conquest Sidon.

Alternative theories on their origin include a "Kult-Bund" i.e. groups from different nations partak ing in a common culture/way-of-life some originating in Greece and others Crete, Asia Minor (Anatolia), Libya and Asia, moving through the mediterranean and Arabian islands and coasts though never venturing far inland. They were certainly closely connected with coastal Arabs and the extent of Islam from Morocco to Indonesia may be a reflection of the trade routes they controlled/frequented. They were a curly-haired people who wore feathered head dresses similar to those used by the Iban in Sarawak and used high-prowed "Serpent" ships, later adopted by the Nordics and may have been the source for the "Fomor" in Hiberian (Irish) myth. Little is known of their original language, though Aku/Ego may have been the original term for self-reference. Ancestrally, the Maltese & Lebanese both have connections to them.

They are supposed to have called their own homeland Ahhiyawa while the Bible has been interpreted as saying they hailed from Caphtor.

Nations which have been grouped with Sea-peoples include:

Danuna
Sherden
Tutsha
Lukka
Sheklesh
Tjekker
Palistines (subjected)
Calushites (subjected)
Zidonians (subjected)


No "expert" knows for certain what occurred in those dark years of the 2nd Millenium BC (circa 1800-1000 BC). There are theories and ideas and guesses and assumptions. But that is all they are.

I have checked a dozen sources, including the Encyclopedia Britannica, and all sources state that the origins of the Sea Peoples are still not known for certain.

Some experts may claim one thing, while other experts will often contradict those claims. There is NO general consensus. All their ideas are just theories.


Some sources:

http://www2.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/seapeoples.htm

http://home.nycap.rr.com/foxmob/sea_peoples.htm

http://www.fact-index.com/s/se/sea_peoples.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0924171804/002-5110626-6232801?v=glance

http://www.shsu.edu/~his_ncp/SeaFolks.html

http://faculty.biu.ac.il/~maeira/The%20Philistines/The%20Philistines/Philistines.html

http://rapidttp.com/milhist/vol074ic.html

http://www.periclespress.com/origins.html

http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=403400

[Steppe Merc]

I just saw a show on the history channel about the Sea Peoples, and they said that often enemies ended up joining the Sea Peoples. And one of the guys that talked a lot was the guy who wrote "End of the Bronze Age".

[Gregorius0202]

@Pericles-

Very good information. Some rather vague and disputable stuff, but I'm sure your sources would explain plenty of it. Thanks much!

@Kom'- I'm goin' to get a couple of atlases this afternoon, hopefully I'll have some region attributes set up soon. Could I get a list of regions by area from you, or a picture of the map? I still don't have HTW on this PC, so havin' it on the game won't help, if that's at all possible...

Adios.

-Gregory-

[Gregorius0202]

Well, I got another atlas based on Egypt, so I have quite a bit of information on the area we need to cover, and I'm still tryin' to find one of these for Anatolia and the surrounding area, etc... So I can start workin' on region attributes!

If I could get a picture of the map, like I said before, that'd be helpful, because I haven't seen it, and don't know where to look!

-Gregory-

[Real Deal]

so when can we download this? and a sugestion my polemusters(sp) in htw keep running and it was making me mad why dont you add some ragular infanitry with no javs and ......(thinking of word) ammo stuff

[Ldvs]

and a sugestion my polemusters(sp) in htw keep running and it was making me mad why dont you add some ragular infanitry with no javs and ......(thinking of word) ammo stuff

Polemists are reliable infantry men, have you ever noticed they were set to "skirmish mode on" ? If you turn this off, they will stand still.

[komninos]

Hi all,

Though working under the shade of RTW some progress has been made.
All Barbarian, Greek, Egyptian and Nubian units till high period are in for testing perposes with the exeption of the Mirmidons. More to do like Summer Hittite but with RTW so close I fear for BA-TW ... at least in MTW engine.

[Ldvs]

Hi all,

Though working under the shade of RTW some progress has been made.
All Barbarian, Greek, Egyptian and Nubian units till high period are in for testing perposes with the exeption of the Mirmidons. More to do like Summer Hittite but with RTW so close I fear for BA-TW ... at least in MTW engine.

Not everyone will buy RTW as soon as it's out. Moreover its release date can but postponed and postponed again like HL2 (I hope not though) ~;)

[Pericles]

Hi all,

Though working under the shade of RTW some progress has been made.
All Barbarian, Greek, Egyptian and Nubian units till high period are in for testing perposes with the exeption of the Mirmidons. More to do like Summer Hittite but with RTW so close I fear for BA-TW ... at least in MTW engine.

I wouldn't worry about RTW.

MTW-VI is a competely separate game and time period. So this game and its mods will be played for a long time to come.

Plus, not everyone will be upgrading their computers just to play RTW.

Just look at all the great games (and their mods) of the past that are STILL being played: AoE, AoK, Close Combat, Panzer General 2, EU2, Civ 2, etc. . .

Keep up the great work ~:cheers:

[Gregorius0202]

"All Barbarian, Greek, Egyptian and Nubian units till high period are in for testing perposes with the exeption of the Mirmidons."

Kom', which unit exactly is our Myrmidon one?

[Real Deal]

I really looking forward to Ba-TW . but i dont know what civs are gonna be on them? and is it gonna be a bigger map? and what are some units are there gonna be? i wanna know because rtw is way to expense i would have to compleatly buy a new computer and vidoe cards for it thats cost around $800-$1000 that just too much.

[Ldvs]

I really looking forward to Ba-TW . but i dont know what civs are gonna be on them? and is it gonna be a bigger map? and what are some units are there gonna be? i wanna know because rtw is way to expense i would have to compleatly buy a new computer and vidoe cards for it thats cost around $800-$1000 that just too much.

I suggest you read the full thread, all your questions are in it ~;)

[komninos]

Hi Greg,

Actually the Mirmidons belong more to the late than to High period ... but I think the Greeks should have an elitish sword unit in High ... I feel they will bring a good aspect in the game though they really tare apart any other unit. So I might brake them to High and Late Mirmidon.

They represent the elitish warrior class that had the money to get armor. In Late period the Greeks have the Promahos unit that is very similar. Bell shaped armor, helmet, arms and keg protection armed with spear, javelin and sword. They formed the first rank of troops (that’s what the name stands for). So the Mirmidons are the elite of these troops ... actually the Mirmidos are described fighting in similar tactics as the Romans not as the other Greek troops.

so they are a bit problematic.

[dimitrios the samian]

Hey Fella's with Sumerians and Hittite's already mentioned would it be fair to say we are finally gonna see Assyrians as well ? ~:)

[komninos]

Yes ... if I remember they should be mentiond above in the faction list.

[Gregorius0202]

"but I think the Greeks should have an elitish sword unit in High "

Yeah, that sounds like a good idea. Some fanciful yet rather "historic" units seem proper to give the factions each their own dose of intriguing units!

Once again, if I could get a hold of a large picture of what the map looks like, I can start doin' some work on the region attributes. I'd rather not have to download anything, but just look at it, as my PC isn't in tip-top shape at the moment!

-Gregory-

[komninos]

Hi Greg,

Get this file (http://users.otenet.gr/~timoleon/DA-map.zip) where there is an image of the map and the spliting of the areas.

[flip]

Update, 2 new units, the white dressed guys, Doriforos and Light_foot
http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba14.jpg

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba13.jpg

Bronze Age is alive! ~:wave:

[Suleimen the Magnificent]

This mod looks great! I have been playing HTW for a while now and I love tyhe stuff you guys do. Just one question, when do you think this mod will be ready?

[komninos]

Hi there,

Well by Xmas you might be able to download a first betta of it but RTW is on the way so things will develop depending on the interest of you people.

Now it is back to work for us :whip:

[flip]

Update, Myrmidons, horned leather cap

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba15.jpg

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba16.jpg

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba17.jpg

[Gregorius0202]

Hey, sorry it's been so long since I've been around here. I'll get that map downloaded and try to get as much information poured out as I can within the next couple of weeks, 'Kom!

The new units look Great Flip! I like the Myrmidons!

Lately this is what I've been up to...

www.bronze-warrior.com

Hope you like:D

-Gregory-

[flip]

New car
http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/carBA.gif

[flip]

WaW!!

http://filipeabranches.no.sapo.pt/MTW/BA/ba18.jpg

[Gregorius0202]

Holy Shiznat! Those look totally Awesome, Flip! Kudos on the Chariot cars, and ESPECIALLY on the horse teams! They look coool!

-Gregory-

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

So hows it coming guys? I've been reading all about bronze age warfare recently especially ancient Near Eastern. Just wondering will any of the following factions be in?

Ancient Egypt
Nubia
Israel
Caananites
Hittites
ASSYRIA!
Moab
Babylon
Sumer

[dimitrios the samian]

Gidday Cao Cao , I asked the same questions and the answer is yes .. :yes: .. NOW back to HTW .. :charge:

[Byzantine Prince]

So when is the bronze era mod comming out? Whats the reales date?

[thettalos]

What??? The new mod is ready? ~:confused: Can't you guys wait til I finish my exams??? :undecided:

[komninos]

No not yet.
for the moment we have made a series of Greek units that can be used in a BA-HTW mod that will be releashed to get your attenstion and comments. Then we will move to the BA-TW with the big map.
Till now we have almost acomplite set of units for the Greeks (bearly fitting the empty positions in HTW :( and a set of 25 faction that reuse many stuff from the original HTW.

[dimitrios the samian]

Great work guys !! bring on the new units Komninos they look fantastic .. well done Flip .

[komninos]

Hi HTW fans,

There has been too much silence in these forums lately, especially after the release of the RTW. Though it was as expected I continued to build some stuff it I get it too.
So with the help from flip we managed to built a small test bed for the BATW over HTW. The mod is a small derivative of the BATW and simply named BA-HTW. It starts at 2000BC and ends at ~800 when HTW takes over.
Though still under development it looks very promising.
25 Factions from which 5 eastern, 4 Barbarian and 14 Greek. Greek factions are all the same but I plan on braking them depending on the Tribal background Achaean, Minoan. These were quite different cultures with the Achaeans being more warlike and the Minoans more peaceful traders and seafarers. It can also be an Achaean & Dorian separation between the south more civilized and the North more warlike factions.
Till now we have all the units till high with the exception of Myrmidons that will soon be released from flip. Also the Eastern and Barbarian factions still use the standard HTW units but with new shields.
Yesterday I had a nice big battle with the Trojans that went an expectedly well. I had 2 Dendra chariots, 1 Myrmidon, 3 light loot, 4 archers and 6 Octaspis units while I gave them 2 Heavy chariots, 2 light chariots, 4 spear, 4 sword and 4 archer units. (The Trojans use Hittite units).
I put the Octaspis in a nice line with the Myrmidons on the right covered by light foot and two light foot covering the left flank. Finally the two Dendra were placed far on the flanks. H started with his chariot force all forward then the Archers and then foot units. His chariot force has all missile weapons and plenty of them.
Him moved them in the center and close to my forces where my archers could do a lot of damage. I moved the flanking Dendra forward with out much nose about it and when they came in position charged them on there General now stuck in the middle of it all. His chariot force was in disarray and was cat down to pieces with his General barely making it out of trouble and behind the spear screen.
I withdrew the chariots to the flanks once again and moved in the foot units. My Octaspis had barely engaged his spear units when I moved the chariot force one again in the flanks. I was faced with a massive retreat!!! Suddenly most of his forces fled, I charged them down and cat them to pieces. Some were regaining there will to fight only to block the way to those fleeing and making my work easier. It was Excellent! At the end most of his force ended up captured than dead.

[dimitrios the samian]

Thats one excellent battle scenario Komninos , I been busy with custom battles on HTW myself .
I look forward to trying out Flips new units as well ..
Has he started on any early Mesopotamian types yet ?
Assyrians !! Babylonians !! Sumerians !! .... yipee ....
Regarding the overall project , as it progresses , I can contribute information if required for both historical and military aspects + pictures of soldiers , images for parchments etc etc ..
cheers ~:cheers: ..to the GEROUSIA
Ps..Hey Kom how about a snapshot of your next test battle to wet our appetites ~:)

[The Sword of Cao Cao]

Ave honoured Gerousia.

I was wondering will this mod be made for RTW as well?

Gotta put those rediculous yet well done Pharonic Egyptians to some good use!

[komninos]

Hi dimitrios,

Yes it would be helpfull but note just yet since the test bed is on the standard HTW map. We will need a hand full of stuff of Mycinean and Hittite origin though.

Sword of Cao Cao, We will try. I have RTW for two days now. It looks very promising but I have not jet looked in the files since I would like to play it for a bid ... if I start modding it then I simply stop the play I only test the stuff.

[Gregorius0202]

Hey Kom',

Sorry I'm gettin' around to those region attributes so late... Tomorrow, hopefully, I'll start gettin' what I can.

What exactly are you wantin' me to record? I've got lists that show which types of materials were traded, where, when each place was controlled by a certain people (to an extent), but this is all mainly around Egypt and Greece... Not much beyond there, though, but I'll hopefully get another atlas soon.

Lemme' know what you're lookin' for!

-Gregory-

[komninos]

Hi Greg,

What I am looking is for each region of the map to have some basic terrain, climate and tradables/minerals.
So Terrain can either be, Mountain, Hilly or Plans (there is also Flat but don’t use it we will use to build a handful of special locations)
Climate can be Lush, Temperate, Arid, Rocky Desert and Sand Desert
We have only three mineral that we can use Gold, Silver, Iron, Salt. We can change them to Gold, Silver, Copper and Iron so we can use copper and Iron to make smiths that will upgrade these. We can also have mines for Salt that we can use as we like.
Finally there are about 20 tradables that we can manipulate and disperse for every region.
Each region need a Terrain type, Climate conditions and up to 3 minerals and 3 tradables and wether it has a river or not. Large rivers must be noted but they will be treated seperatly.
What I need from you is to look in the map and give me a text like this
(from the map but I will put in there order later in the day)
(Mountain, Hilly or Plans)
(Lush, Temperate, Arid, Rocky Desert and Sand Desert)
(Gold, Silver, Iron, Salt)
(I will put in the labels that we can use later in the day)
i.e.
ID_SCOTLAND Hilly Temperate Iron bronze salt Honey Wood fish
...

I will give more later today when I will have all the labels that we can use and some more stuff on how to work this out.

Cheers

[Gregorius0202]

Hi Greg,

What I am looking is for each region of the map to have some basic terrain, climate and tradables/minerals.
So Terrain can either be, Mountain, Hilly or Plans (there is also Flat but don’t use it we will use to build a handful of special locations)
Climate can be Lush, Temperate, Arid, Rocky Desert and Sand Desert
We have only three mineral that we can use Gold, Silver, Iron, Salt. We can change them to Gold, Silver, Copper and Iron so we can use copper and Iron to make smiths that will upgrade these. We can also have mines for Salt that we can use as we like.
Finally there are about 20 tradables that we can manipulate and disperse for every region.
Each region need a Terrain type, Climate conditions and up to 3 minerals and 3 tradables and wether it has a river or not. Large rivers must be noted but they will be treated seperatly.
What I need from you is to look in the map and give me a text like this
(from the map but I will put in there order later in the day)
(Mountain, Hilly or Plans)
(Lush, Temperate, Arid, Rocky Desert and Sand Desert)
(Gold, Silver, Iron, Salt)
(I will put in the labels that we can use later in the day)
i.e.
ID_SCOTLAND Hilly Temperate Iron bronze salt Honey Wood fish
...

I will give more later today when I will have all the labels that we can use and some more stuff on how to work this out.

Cheers

Okay, as soon as you get the rest of those details to me, I'll start work as soon as I can. What can the twenty tradables be, exactly? Just the one's listed in the Medieval file, or can their be different ones as well?

-Gregory-

[komninos]

Hi Greg,

The total tradable goods is the sum of the good found in MTW and VI. We can change the labels so if you would like you can rename one but then ive me a list of what is what cause in the file I would prefer to have tha labes so we don't have to see any conflicts! We will have to remake in this case some images but that is nothing very difficalt.

My problem is that every body is turning to RTW but still this will be a fine study so we can pust it if needed to RTW engeen later on.

[1dread1lahll]

Hello people....plz continue with the HTW project, I think I speak for many that played/loved the first but like me dont post much.....RTW is different but it is NOT better and a lot will get tired of it soon and like me looking to dl "bronze age".

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Build and testing a BA expansion if this version works it will be available for public download soon.
Remember it is a unpolished beta version so not a finished product you still will have gameplay fun though.

LZoF

[1dread1lahll]

ready soon I see,...kool...

[JR-]

excellent, cheers.

i'm all for keeping M:TW alive, as R:TW is a very different game.

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

A Beta test v1.0 of the HTW Bronze Age Expansion is available for download on the HTW site.

LZoF

[ParthianWarrior]

Cant download it for some reason...

[bthizle1]

Wll you guys be coming out with some kind of mod for RTW?

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

-If the downloads are down this is due to bandwidth.
-A HTW2 project based on the RTW engine well...YES.

LZoF

[axel]

hi i am new at this forum but i just want to say i have all totalwar serries but HTW makes it even more special and please keep it going on i now RTW is agreat game also but i find the MTW series special and that will be the game that i will play even after years so i hope you all will go on with the expancian pack you where plan to make i love it and i now there are many people how loves it also i now a fue here in holland and UK where i comme from so keep on the great works please go on with the mods and expacians please it even helps my son at school with his history lessons and i am not kidding ~:) :charge:

[ParthianWarrior]

Cant seem to download the BA Expansion..I Get a Page with Jibberish and the Download link dosen't open...Host problems again?

[axel]

yes what i understand its only for a fue weeks ParthianWarrior

[Diomedes]

Kairete!

This is my first post on these boards. I just heard about this project and am thouroughly stoked. It looks like you guys have already done some excellent well researched work here. A friend hooked me into RTW and when I heard that some people were attempting a mod with Hellenic in the title I had to stop and check it out.

I was wondering if you guys need any help?

I got my BA in Classics and Philosophy from San Diego state and my girlfriend is a Homericist working on her PhD under Walter Donaland at UC Irvine. We'd love to help out with this project. I'm the gamer in the household but my gal Rebecca is starting to warm up to things a bit since I started playing Total War ehehe. If there's any writing or historical whatnots that need fleshing out we’d be happy to do a little research or typing. I might be to put together some graphics for you as well. I work mostly in pencil www.portfolios.com/jasonwclark
but I've been playing around in Photoshop quite a bit lately and am trying to branch out into the digital arena. Does anyone have some suggestions for tools I’d need work with RTW?

Anyhow just wanted to say hello and congratulate you guys on the excellent work you've been doing. And ff there are any elements of the game that still need work by all means let us know :)

jasonwclark@gmail.com

[JR-]

sadly, i think development has ended.

[komninos]

Hi,

Well development has ended in MTW platform ... but is slow in RTW platform. We will need all the help we can get when we go at 100%. For now we are practicing on RTW.

Unfortunately RTW lets you change many things but in a small scale a BA mod would need many and deep changes that’s what we are struggling with at the moment.

[tutankamon]

Cool pictures from BA totalwar... but i how far are you gues with it?

I saw that there is a beta on the hellenic site but I have som trouble making it work so :help:

[The Stranger]

is this mod for RTW

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

HTW 2:The Bronze Age will be based on the RTW engine,so yes.
But at the moment development on the project is at a low, because of private obligations of almost all members of the Gerousia.

LZoF

[flip]

Hi all, since long time away, work and personal life.

Finally I reinstalled from scratch HTW with the 2 files available at HTW site.
Question, I believe last BA mod, the last version from Komninos, is inside the file HTW patch. Ok, but at the first turn in BA campaign I got a CTD. I'll test it further to see whats up.

I'm not getting any news from Kom, but we have a beta BA ready for RTW.
Are you there Kom?

More news: I'm going to help the guys from the former Diadochi, now Successors mod for RTW. Here's the links.

Look here on Diadochi forum thread
Draksen forums (http://www.draksen.net)

Total War Center
The Successors: Total War (TS-TW) (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showforum=67 )

PS: I have not yet RTW patched to 1.2

[komninos]

hi all,

Time is the big problem these days ...
I am still here but I pass fast for a look.

Any way ... apparently I will start to get some free time (i hope) from now on. I have left the map development half way and that is not good.

Flip if you can please perfect the New Kingdom Egyptian units I sent you some time ago and if possible ... any help on the rest of the Bronze age would be good.

The BA file should not cause any big problems to HTW ... One thing though It is not finished and it was mostly a draft for the unit testing!!!

[flip]

I'm still having random CTD in BA, almost around Spartan provinces.
I look to the files inside Rufus patch and the ones in the install HTW patch.
Nothing is missing aparently. Can you chek the txt prod and stat files?

[komninos]

OK I will,

Though most of it is automated ...
Can you tell me when the CTD happen?
Can you reproduce them then I can spot the problem fast. Though I have to admit it has been some time since I last looked though the HTW files.

Flip, did you get my emails?

[flip]

It almost happens when Sparta invades Messenia at very first turn. The King with militia and militia spearman. When they go battle it CTD when loading battle. But I had also some CTD just turning the year.

For Rufus, Flags and banners are blacked at least for Spartans, does whe have to put the faction colors as the txt file inside your patch?

I'm using the patch HTW with Rufus alterated stats.

[The_Doctor]

When is the RTW version of the mod set?

Is it ~3000BC to ~1000BC or ~700BC to ~300BC?

[flip]

Komninos, Rufus

The crashes happens around Spartan provinces, I did some tests, no problems it seems with missing units/icons or flags

Kom, check this units in slots text/men, they're missing, but mabe normal
gr_archer
hit_arch
hit_hvyChar
hit_lt_char
Syr_arch

Someone check the maps, and connections between spartan province and neighbours. If we go automatic battle, it passes, but if we go battle it CTD.
Must be missing maps.

or some memory issue with my PC. Can you guys check attacking Sparta, or Sparta attacking neighbour at very first turn? Also Athens if they attack someone it CTD

This happens in Early BA

[macsen rufus]

Hi all - sorry I haven't been around, been kept away from computer by "mouse arm" and dislocated vertebrae!

I can't quite remember how, but I have sorted the Spartan crash in my version. It may have been something to do with the names.txt or possibly the heroes.txt. I was having problems with Kings numbered in the -1 range (!) so in frustration deleted all the famous kings and heroes (left the sections in place, setting list length to "0"). I want to go back and re-insert some heroes, but am still sorting it out (and reading too much history - I keep finding new heroes I want).

I have found in the online modding guides two different explanations on the SET_FACTION_LEADER command for setting up lists of famous kings, and I think the original HTW was done following the version I don't think is quite right. I still haven't got to the bottom of it yet! But I really don't think you need a line of 110 1s in there.

Next week I will be able to get my HTW machine online again, and I will have a definitive version of all the files I've changed on my HTW page. But here is the latest fix package (http://www.thothwebdesign.com/Hellenic/MacsenRufus_HTW_BA_fix.zip) I have.

I also found out it's a bad idea leaving 'junk' .txt files around in MTW directories - it can get horribly confused - it's best to change the file extension rather than the file name if you keep defaults/back-ups/betas anywhere in the game directory.

PS - I think I found the SPARTAN CRASH was a PYLEAN problem in the end; dammit, must find my notes!!

[cunobelinus]

u should of modded rome total war not medival it looks poor!!

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Dear man we modded MTW:VI as at the time in 2003 RTW did not exist yet.
Hellenic Total War was ready well before the release of RTW.Of all the posts I read and mail I have got this comment is again proof that people like to post but do not read any forums.

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=33397&page=1

See if you have the courage to read all 56 pages.

LZoF

[dimitrios the samian]

Littlegannon ,, little time and littlebrain .......

[Goth47]

cant wait to see this mod. went to download htw update patch with bronze age on last night but server was down. keep up the good work lads coz in my opinion htw(which i have played to death ) is more fun to play than rome total war

[Goth47]

anybody know where i can get the htw patch with ba. been trying for days to get it from htw site but no luck

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Server is offline waiting for an answer of Nevacious customer service, sorry you will have to wait.


LZoF

[Goth47]

thanks Lz .can you tell me if developement on ba for mtw vi has ceased alltogether and if all work is now aimed at rtw?
thanks again

[Lord Zimoa of Flanders]

Links work again.

LZoF

[Laridus Konivaich]

I don't know how far you guys have gotten in developing a mod for RTW, but you should check out Age of Hellas, a greek mod for RTW. The map is already about 2/3 done, and some factions are almost skinned. The only thing that is somewhat different is that we are starting ca 500BC, which is a little later than when HTW started.


I think the links are in mig sig, but here there are in the post too:

AOH Forums (http://s9.invisionfree.com/Hellenic_Wars/index.php?act=idx)
AOH Forums at TWC (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/index.php?showforum=75)

[caesar44]

hi
what about an update ?

[Bar Kochba]

is this mod for rome total war and when will this mod be coming out

[Bonfire]

@bar Kochba to my knowledge. the leader of the this mod making is currently putting the final touches to the mtw XL mod patch..

then will be finishing up the bronze age 2 project.

[Steve_12]

Dans quelques histoires que j'ai vues et lu; les deux ennemis deviennent des alliés par ce que les vaincus se mettent du côté des vainqueurs après le combat. est-ce vrai?

Je n'avais pas entendu parler de ça!