Tozama
07-13-2004, 19:52
I bet this subject exists somewhere in these forums but when I hit search it says: You are not allowed to use this part of the board so I cannot continue an old thread on it. :surprised:
I am 80% successful attacking bridges. Some of this carried over from STW methods and practice.
Toz's rules for attacking a well defended river province:
1. Have a cutting edge army for the era.
A. If pre-1200 this means feudal sergeants not vanilla spears, this means +1 or preferably +2 or +3 armor for all troops in the attacking army, this means Royal knights or Chiv. Knights not Hobilers......you get the picture
Armor + upgrades and some armored units help a lot to absorb arrows without heavy losses.
B. Bring plenty of ranged units along. If early in early - a large supply of archers. If after 1205 and you're English its Longbows all the way If you have them - arbs are nice to use - PavArbs are best. Bring enough so you can withdraw them only to replace them with more as reinforcements as they run out of arrows/missiles.
In addition to the above points have a nice troop mix for every melee situation.
So If your attacking force is say two stacks, you bring 2-3 billmen or pikes, 4-6 swords, 4-6 high grade spears, 2-4 Hvy.Cav or Knights. 1-2 catapults are good to have as well.
C. Have at least 1.5 : 1 odds in your favor or reconsider the attack until you do unless you see your enemy has much inferior forces and/or few archers on his side.
2. Initial deployment makes or breaks the attack when facing down a strong foe at a bridge. IMO the battle is usually won or lost by what happens with my 1st 16 units on the map. It is seldom my reinforcements snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in a bridge attack.
A. If you have catapults use 1 or 2 in initial deployment and place them in range of the enemy's shoreline.
B. In your 1st 16 unit army you field bring your highest valor units:
2-3 hvy. cav of some sort
2 Billmen or pikes
2 Good qualty high armor upgrade spears
2 Good quality high armor upgrade swords
7 archers/arbs (Longbows if you have them)
Set the pre-battle arrangement using 3 line attack which puts your archers up front since the game makes you start the battle back a bit from the bridge. This way you get your missile fire up in place up front as quickly as possible.
Group your archers in one big group using the group command.
3. Starting the battle:
As soon as you hit Start Battle Click your archers to RUN to your shoreline facing the bridge/enemy and then quickly send a Billman or pike and a sword unit as well right to the edge of the bridge on your side.
The goal here is to do to them what they plan to do to you - whittle them to pieces with arrow fire while trapping them on the bridge.
Once your best sword and spear are enroute to the bridge edge move the rest of your army close but yet out of range of the enemy's arrow fire.
Line them up in an ordered column directly in parallel to the bridge mouth so as you call each unit to action to the bridge he has no turning to do - he just marches straight and quick into action.
Graphic Example:
---------- ----------- ----------
river.... bridge.... river
---------- ----------- ----------
+archer unit+ +spear unit+ +archer unit+ +archer unit+
+sword unit+
+spear unit+
+sword unit+
4. Engagement
Ok you have the sequence started. Now you must react to what your enemy does and according to his setup.
A. The enemy sits just on his shoreline edge. Your Pike unit stops at your side of the bridge edge and your arrows are showering his men with death. If your pike is taking heavy losses from his arrows but he is not sending anyone across the bridge then run your pike back just out of his arrow range and continue the missile barrage.
Usually your arrow fire on him will excite the enemy and he will charge across the bridge himself. Be ready with your pike or sword to quickly run in place to trap any invaders ON THE BRIDGE if he does this. If he charges with cav send pike 1st. If he charges with spears send swords. If he charges with swords (rare for AI to lead with swords early in battle) then send knights in 1st. Key is to send EXACTLY the countering unit to what he sends across that bridge. Golden rule in MTW is Spear/Sword/Cav = Rock/Paper/Scissors. The goal is to pin his charging unit ON the bridge. Then turn most or all your arrow fire directly onto the bridge attacker. If you have longbows this gets brutal. I watch spear units hit that bridge 100 strong, meet my Chiv. Men-at-arms at my side-edge, get a hail of arrows from 6 longbows and run 60 seconds later with less than 30 men alive.
Continue this cycle:
His spears are losing so he sends cav to meet your victorious swords. As soon as you see cav coming in your direction you send in a spear unit to meet it. He sends swords in – you send cav in. Tit for tat. All the while your archers are burning him alive on the bridge with arrows.
Watch your archer ammo and send empty archers back using withdraw command in 2-3 unit groups to bring fresh archers in to replace them. NEVER wait until all your archers are empty and send all of them back for replacements at once. You want constant arrow fire on the bridge.
At some point about 80% of the time after mauling his men badly he will send in the general – jedi unit to try to tip the balance on the bridge. As soon as I see that big square flag marching down to the bridge I hit “select all” and double click attack all my units on his general.
By the time he hits the bridge my whole army is descending on it as well and all my arrow fire is targeting him. If his general is royal knights (usually is) he’s lucky to arrive with over 12 men as he begins melee since my longbows blasted him every step on his way. Your goal now becomes kill/capture the general with the final goal of this causing a mass route of the enemy army. It seldom fails if you followed all the requirements for your army in this guide.
B. The enemy sits up on a hill looking down onto the bridge but out of range of your archers on your shoreline. A stalemate which you cannot ignore since you lose as attacker in a stalemate.
He will sit back out of range and try to wait you out. He sends volleys of catapult fire into your lines as they sit near the shoreline. If you move across the bridge his arrows hit you enmass just as you touch foot on his side of the bridge.
Ok this is probably the toughest scenario. But it is still winnable.
You have 2 primary choices here. Its best to try solution #1 1st. Then if that fails use solution #2
Solution #1:
Take your highest armor upgraded spear(+3 if you have one) with high valor and set to NOT hold formation and loose formation and not hold position(Not hold formation so he can turn and run without regrouping into lines first = quicker reaction times when changing direction, Loose formation so he is hit less by arrows than if in close formation). Run him full speed across the bridge and directly at the weakest - yet closest unit in his line. For example a forward unprotected archer unit on his far right. Often this charge will bring a reaction of him sending melee troops to meet your spear. But do not engage. Turn your spear around asap and run him back across the bridge. 70% of the time the foe will give chase all the way across the bridge. Once he has men in battle the rest of his army usually comes down for the fight. Now you proceed with plan A above in this guide.
Now you may be thinking to yourself “why send a spear across to run him back when you can send cavalry across and run them back faster?”
Well I find 100 spears seem to have enough men alive after being hit by arrows doing this bait tactic so the enemy sees them as worth chasing. Yet they are fast enough that only cavalry can usually catch them in a chase. I find sending cav across sometimes they hit my 20 man royal knights down to about 8 men by the time I run him back and the Ai seems to think 8 men aren’t worth giving up their ground to go chase. And since spears aren't elite I have less risk of my army routing since a non-elite unit is the one losing or routing. If Royal Cav begins to route you lose the exemption of ignores routers who aren't elite that some units have.
I’ve had a few occasions that cav. Handled the bait job just fine. But against a high star general on expert I usually just lose knights and no one chases me. Also send a spear because it negates (mostly) him simply sending 20-40 knights down quickly enough to snag and kill your bait since knights are fast but do not fare so well vs. Spears. This makes him commit swords usually or UM or something anyway.
Solution #2:
This has a lower probability for success but still does win most times.
If you tried solution #1 and no one will chase you to the bridge you sit in stalemate and now with one wounded bait unit running back across the bridge or worse – dead because he got snagged by something faster. Withdraw your bait unit if he’s badly hurt and withdraw 50-75% of your archers in trade for every cavalry unit you have in reserve. When you run out of cav to bring up bring up swords next. Do not advance until all reinforcements have arrived so you attack in full 16 unit force.
Mass your army on your side with cavalry first then a mix of the rest of the melee men and your remaining archers just leave in place on the shoreline as cover fire just in case for now.
Your first goal now is to get as many men on their shore as possible before he attacks you. Run your cavalry over first but do not charge him. Instead run them to one side or the other – wherever there’s room to run so they’re out of arrow range and away from his spears. If his army chases your mass horses GREAT He broke his lines for you as your foot-troops come across March your footmen (spears and swords) across and try to form a good battle line before advancing. Meaning do NOT send in units at the enemy lines one at a time like meat into a meat grinder. Try hard to mass as big a line of men as you can before he attacks you or you attack him. Do this just on his side of the bridge so iF HE DOES attack you mid-way through this process your archers can make some kills and relieve some of the pressure.
From here its play it by ear ground attack tactics. Try to kill his general – always good for a route most days. Do the same things you normally do in battle that win for you.
The only thing different is the bridge and you either USE IT to your advantage in example A, or you negate it being his advantage by crossing enmass in example B.
I’ll try to clean this up and replace my sad graphic text with a real screenshot later in an edit.
I am 80% successful attacking bridges. Some of this carried over from STW methods and practice.
Toz's rules for attacking a well defended river province:
1. Have a cutting edge army for the era.
A. If pre-1200 this means feudal sergeants not vanilla spears, this means +1 or preferably +2 or +3 armor for all troops in the attacking army, this means Royal knights or Chiv. Knights not Hobilers......you get the picture
Armor + upgrades and some armored units help a lot to absorb arrows without heavy losses.
B. Bring plenty of ranged units along. If early in early - a large supply of archers. If after 1205 and you're English its Longbows all the way If you have them - arbs are nice to use - PavArbs are best. Bring enough so you can withdraw them only to replace them with more as reinforcements as they run out of arrows/missiles.
In addition to the above points have a nice troop mix for every melee situation.
So If your attacking force is say two stacks, you bring 2-3 billmen or pikes, 4-6 swords, 4-6 high grade spears, 2-4 Hvy.Cav or Knights. 1-2 catapults are good to have as well.
C. Have at least 1.5 : 1 odds in your favor or reconsider the attack until you do unless you see your enemy has much inferior forces and/or few archers on his side.
2. Initial deployment makes or breaks the attack when facing down a strong foe at a bridge. IMO the battle is usually won or lost by what happens with my 1st 16 units on the map. It is seldom my reinforcements snatch victory from the jaws of defeat in a bridge attack.
A. If you have catapults use 1 or 2 in initial deployment and place them in range of the enemy's shoreline.
B. In your 1st 16 unit army you field bring your highest valor units:
2-3 hvy. cav of some sort
2 Billmen or pikes
2 Good qualty high armor upgrade spears
2 Good quality high armor upgrade swords
7 archers/arbs (Longbows if you have them)
Set the pre-battle arrangement using 3 line attack which puts your archers up front since the game makes you start the battle back a bit from the bridge. This way you get your missile fire up in place up front as quickly as possible.
Group your archers in one big group using the group command.
3. Starting the battle:
As soon as you hit Start Battle Click your archers to RUN to your shoreline facing the bridge/enemy and then quickly send a Billman or pike and a sword unit as well right to the edge of the bridge on your side.
The goal here is to do to them what they plan to do to you - whittle them to pieces with arrow fire while trapping them on the bridge.
Once your best sword and spear are enroute to the bridge edge move the rest of your army close but yet out of range of the enemy's arrow fire.
Line them up in an ordered column directly in parallel to the bridge mouth so as you call each unit to action to the bridge he has no turning to do - he just marches straight and quick into action.
Graphic Example:
---------- ----------- ----------
river.... bridge.... river
---------- ----------- ----------
+archer unit+ +spear unit+ +archer unit+ +archer unit+
+sword unit+
+spear unit+
+sword unit+
4. Engagement
Ok you have the sequence started. Now you must react to what your enemy does and according to his setup.
A. The enemy sits just on his shoreline edge. Your Pike unit stops at your side of the bridge edge and your arrows are showering his men with death. If your pike is taking heavy losses from his arrows but he is not sending anyone across the bridge then run your pike back just out of his arrow range and continue the missile barrage.
Usually your arrow fire on him will excite the enemy and he will charge across the bridge himself. Be ready with your pike or sword to quickly run in place to trap any invaders ON THE BRIDGE if he does this. If he charges with cav send pike 1st. If he charges with spears send swords. If he charges with swords (rare for AI to lead with swords early in battle) then send knights in 1st. Key is to send EXACTLY the countering unit to what he sends across that bridge. Golden rule in MTW is Spear/Sword/Cav = Rock/Paper/Scissors. The goal is to pin his charging unit ON the bridge. Then turn most or all your arrow fire directly onto the bridge attacker. If you have longbows this gets brutal. I watch spear units hit that bridge 100 strong, meet my Chiv. Men-at-arms at my side-edge, get a hail of arrows from 6 longbows and run 60 seconds later with less than 30 men alive.
Continue this cycle:
His spears are losing so he sends cav to meet your victorious swords. As soon as you see cav coming in your direction you send in a spear unit to meet it. He sends swords in – you send cav in. Tit for tat. All the while your archers are burning him alive on the bridge with arrows.
Watch your archer ammo and send empty archers back using withdraw command in 2-3 unit groups to bring fresh archers in to replace them. NEVER wait until all your archers are empty and send all of them back for replacements at once. You want constant arrow fire on the bridge.
At some point about 80% of the time after mauling his men badly he will send in the general – jedi unit to try to tip the balance on the bridge. As soon as I see that big square flag marching down to the bridge I hit “select all” and double click attack all my units on his general.
By the time he hits the bridge my whole army is descending on it as well and all my arrow fire is targeting him. If his general is royal knights (usually is) he’s lucky to arrive with over 12 men as he begins melee since my longbows blasted him every step on his way. Your goal now becomes kill/capture the general with the final goal of this causing a mass route of the enemy army. It seldom fails if you followed all the requirements for your army in this guide.
B. The enemy sits up on a hill looking down onto the bridge but out of range of your archers on your shoreline. A stalemate which you cannot ignore since you lose as attacker in a stalemate.
He will sit back out of range and try to wait you out. He sends volleys of catapult fire into your lines as they sit near the shoreline. If you move across the bridge his arrows hit you enmass just as you touch foot on his side of the bridge.
Ok this is probably the toughest scenario. But it is still winnable.
You have 2 primary choices here. Its best to try solution #1 1st. Then if that fails use solution #2
Solution #1:
Take your highest armor upgraded spear(+3 if you have one) with high valor and set to NOT hold formation and loose formation and not hold position(Not hold formation so he can turn and run without regrouping into lines first = quicker reaction times when changing direction, Loose formation so he is hit less by arrows than if in close formation). Run him full speed across the bridge and directly at the weakest - yet closest unit in his line. For example a forward unprotected archer unit on his far right. Often this charge will bring a reaction of him sending melee troops to meet your spear. But do not engage. Turn your spear around asap and run him back across the bridge. 70% of the time the foe will give chase all the way across the bridge. Once he has men in battle the rest of his army usually comes down for the fight. Now you proceed with plan A above in this guide.
Now you may be thinking to yourself “why send a spear across to run him back when you can send cavalry across and run them back faster?”
Well I find 100 spears seem to have enough men alive after being hit by arrows doing this bait tactic so the enemy sees them as worth chasing. Yet they are fast enough that only cavalry can usually catch them in a chase. I find sending cav across sometimes they hit my 20 man royal knights down to about 8 men by the time I run him back and the Ai seems to think 8 men aren’t worth giving up their ground to go chase. And since spears aren't elite I have less risk of my army routing since a non-elite unit is the one losing or routing. If Royal Cav begins to route you lose the exemption of ignores routers who aren't elite that some units have.
I’ve had a few occasions that cav. Handled the bait job just fine. But against a high star general on expert I usually just lose knights and no one chases me. Also send a spear because it negates (mostly) him simply sending 20-40 knights down quickly enough to snag and kill your bait since knights are fast but do not fare so well vs. Spears. This makes him commit swords usually or UM or something anyway.
Solution #2:
This has a lower probability for success but still does win most times.
If you tried solution #1 and no one will chase you to the bridge you sit in stalemate and now with one wounded bait unit running back across the bridge or worse – dead because he got snagged by something faster. Withdraw your bait unit if he’s badly hurt and withdraw 50-75% of your archers in trade for every cavalry unit you have in reserve. When you run out of cav to bring up bring up swords next. Do not advance until all reinforcements have arrived so you attack in full 16 unit force.
Mass your army on your side with cavalry first then a mix of the rest of the melee men and your remaining archers just leave in place on the shoreline as cover fire just in case for now.
Your first goal now is to get as many men on their shore as possible before he attacks you. Run your cavalry over first but do not charge him. Instead run them to one side or the other – wherever there’s room to run so they’re out of arrow range and away from his spears. If his army chases your mass horses GREAT He broke his lines for you as your foot-troops come across March your footmen (spears and swords) across and try to form a good battle line before advancing. Meaning do NOT send in units at the enemy lines one at a time like meat into a meat grinder. Try hard to mass as big a line of men as you can before he attacks you or you attack him. Do this just on his side of the bridge so iF HE DOES attack you mid-way through this process your archers can make some kills and relieve some of the pressure.
From here its play it by ear ground attack tactics. Try to kill his general – always good for a route most days. Do the same things you normally do in battle that win for you.
The only thing different is the bridge and you either USE IT to your advantage in example A, or you negate it being his advantage by crossing enmass in example B.
I’ll try to clean this up and replace my sad graphic text with a real screenshot later in an edit.