bunch o cowards?

[Lacker]

So I'm playing as Denmark and I have been working with Spain to keep the Egyptians in Africa. Here's a brief story.

Spain has a large army and initially controlled everything to Tunisia. Egypt has been steadily pushing them West I have a massive navy and good resources, lots of troops and cash as I have been practicing the old wait for civil war then make the move into a neighboring province technique. This works well as you get land without a bothersome war. Anyhow Egypt will invade Algeria, I'd send 4k or so troops, Egypt would back off and Spain would be gratefull.

This happens for probably 15 years until Spain decides to invade the province I took fair and square from them, Castile. They had a civil war, I bribed the rebels...you can't hold what's yours it's fair game I say....

So I whipe Spain off the map and take up in Morrocco to keep the Egyptians at bay. Now here's the question....

Egypt wont fight. They'll attack, and I'll set up my troops but all they do is approach and then flee. I've seen enemies balk before, especially if I'm holding a strong position, but they won't even march away....they FLEE. I'll be outnumbered 8 to one (having backed most of my army back into spain to sue Egypt for peace), with basic spears and archers maybe 2 cavalry and they just split.

I'm wondering if all the years of invading then calling off the attack has given all their generals a "good runner" vice, or something similar to it. I look at their generals and see no such vice. I've fought Egypt before and they usually fight to the burger so I'm wondering what gives?

A

[katank]

no idea. usually they'd get hesistant and some nasty vices and soon decide not to do this any more.

so you mean they are actually running away and not just marching quickly off the map?

did you charge and grab some routers? nice way to valor up your cav.

[ah_dut]

yo katank, it's just the stupid AI retreating it's sorry behind again and again and yes it's a good time to get some cav valour http://www.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[WorkNeglecter]

Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 13 2004,22:36)]yo katank, it's just the stupid AI retreating it's sorry behind again and again and yes it's a good time to get some cav valour ~https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I thought that valour upgrades were only for kills, not for capturing routers.

Sometimes I have units which capture 300 routers and don't valour up.

[Ironside]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ July 14 2004,09:25)]
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 13 2004,22:36)]yo katank, it's just the stupid AI retreating it's sorry behind again and again and yes it's a good time to get some cav valour ~https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I thought that valour upgrades were only for kills, not for capturing routers.

Sometimes I have units which capture 300 routers and don't valour up.
You'll get valour by capturing routers, but in a reduced rate (1/4 I think).

[motorhead]

Quote[/b] (WorkNeglecter @ July 14 2004,10:25)]
Quote[/b] (ah_dut @ July 13 2004,22:36)]yo katank, it's just the stupid AI retreating it's sorry behind again and again and yes it's a good time to get some cav valour ~https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
I thought that valour upgrades were only for kills, not for capturing routers.

Sometimes I have units which capture 300 routers and don't valour up.

I'm 99% certain you do get some valor for captures, but they're worth less than a regular kill (1/4 or so). Keep in mind if your unit is already valor 6, it will take _alot_ of captures to valor up. I know when i play as turks, my turcoman horse rack up quick valor running down routers all the time.

And a kill isn't always just a kill. From a dev (longjohn2):

Quote[/b] ]I've discussed kills and valour before. Suffice to say that they are bunch of factors that determine how many kills a particular kill actually accounts for. They were put in for Shogun, so have something of an honour based theme. They depend on relative honour levels, social status, and such factors as whether the victim was killed in melee, shot, or hacked down while running away.

[Kristaps]

most probably, the egyptian army is lead by a vice-decorated general (good runner, coward, eager to retreat, strange, etc. combo). the AI is not smart enough to remove the general. so, by the looks of the situation, they figure that their armies outnumber yours so they attack. once on the field, the general's morale penalty kicks in and they flee... assassinate their general if you want the fight :)

[Lacker]

I looked at the general though, and he doesn't have any vices. This could be because every time they try this, their general dies. I usually focus all of my missile units on him until he goes down, usually before ANY of their infantry or cavalry reach my lines.

Katank....
They flee, horns and all. My knights will rout what they can, but usually they don't "flee the field" right away. Different units will march up,and without ever even drawing a weapon or lowering a spear they'll squee their little horns and turn tail to run. They may get 1/2 way off the map and then turn around, but never to mount any kind of assault. Usually there is a spear unit or something lurking near the back to dissuade too much routing but eventually when they do flee the field and I'll rout so long as my knights arn't baked into their armor by then. (this brings up an off the topic question....why can't I build Hobilars with Den? Not available? I usually have like 6 units of them available when I defend in Africa for that very reason.)

This is so silly, I mean last night I fought a battle where the casualty rate was 896 to 38. And those 38 were missile casualties. I figured playing Denmark on Expert would be tricky, but hell, now that I'm through Spain it looks to be all down hill.

[Blodrast]

Quote[/b] (Lacker @ July 14 2004,12:19)](this brings up an off the topic question....why can't I build Hobilars with Den? Not available? I usually have like 6 units of them available when I defend in Africa for that very reason.)
only English and French can build Hobbies.

as for the Spaniards' decision to attack you in Castile, well, you know that the diplomatic AI is not exactly..erm, coherent, right ?
It's behaves much like this: https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Don Corleone]

I have a theory about Castille that I'd like opinions on. It's my opinion that AI factions will always view a province they've held for a while, especially homelands like Castille, as theirs, regardless of from whom you liberated it. The rebels could have been bribed by the English, who could have been kicked out by the French, who lost it to an Almo Jihad who held it for 30 years when you decide to take it. The AI Spanish will view Castille as their province and will view you as the ones keeping it from them. Funny, they don't seem to mind the huge influence hit they take for attacking an ally (something I NEVER do). https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/eek.gif

[Lacker]

Don Corleone,

That's the only possible explanation for why they would attack Castile. That and the fact that I had a small garrison there and it's a very wealthy province.

It broke my heart though, I was trying to be diplomatic in every sense and only started a few wars, which ended quickly and with all my captured prisoners being set free. Spain changed all that. I know I probably shouldn't be picking up their pieces but hey, if I'm fielding an army of 3,000 men to fight and die in Africa at your expense, I need a little compensation right? If you can't hold on to whats yours I'm going to take it, right?

My army of 3,000 invaded Cordoba, Leon, and Portugal, while I sailed an army from Flanders (there to protect from French or English reappearences) to invade Valencia.
It was kind of interesting, after 1 year, the only provinces Spain held that wern't under seige were Algeria and Ireland. (Cause we all remember the Spanish invasion of the Emerald Isle from our history books right https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif ) I killed everyone I captured on the battle field and when Spain deteriorated into rebel factions, I hunted each one down, (including those in Ireland) and killed them (leaving Ireland to the Irish as it belongs https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif ) For the next 50 years or so, I used only the former Spanish provinces to fight, sending the traitorous generation off to raid Turkey, or some bleak rebel held province in Northern Russia. The moral of the story is, don't bite the hand that feeds you. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

A

[katank]

they always do.

if an AI faction has nowhere to expand into but you, they will take the first opportunity to do so.

if they either outnumber you or have high quality in a single province, they will suicidally stab an empire ten times their size

Danes don't get hobilars, only E/F do.

you can get horsemen though for cheapo cav which are comparable (known in viking map as medium cav).

[mercian billman]

In the english pbem campaign the Mongol Khan Ogadai had -9 morale from all the times I routed him https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

After 2 battles all I had to do was fire a volley with my longbows and then charge with my billmen. The Khan would run and, the reinforcements would withdraw as soon as they saw the map.

A bad general is worth two good generals https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[The_Emperor]

AI Crusaders are a classic case of this constant retreating or cancelling of an attack.

The Crusade can only move forward and if you have a large force blocking the way the enemy commander will constantly withdraw... Often when they do come into battle you can rout them just by walking close to them

[Sociopsychoactive]

And of course this is made even easier when fighting the egyptians thanks to the peasent hordes they send (someone please explain why they do that?).

Peasents rout easily, that panicks the rest of the army, you shoot down a single man in a wavering stack and it routs, setting off a chain rout of all but one unit hidden in a forest at the back that manages to rally some of them, only for them to run away again.

Boring, boring, boring. But does make it easy, myself I prefer a challenge, so charge at the egyptians as soon as you can, don't wait for them to come to you in battle. Thy will run away when your lines hit them, but at least you get to actually use your swords, if only very breifly.

[katank]

they tend to not tech up much and just pump out peasants, camels, and nubians.

that peasant horde is easily destroyed by mountains of clansmen as well as massed archery.

feel sorry for those suckers who lack armor.

[Ulair]

I had a similar experience the other day as Italy defending Constantinople from the Horde. Anticipating a good scrap - Italian infantry, FS, arbalests my side, MHC and MHA theirs - I set up on a hill (as you do...). Battle started, Horde swing wide to flank, I turn to face them, all still well out of bowshot, and they start to move back into the woods... and keep moving, straight off the map https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif . The ones I checked were "marching quickly" not "running away", and all without a shot being fired or a blow thrown. And me with no HA or pursuit cav to my name...

Odd, and a shame - I've never fought MHC before (never played High before, and all my Earlies have ended well before 1230).
https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ht_shrug.gif

[katank]

marching quickly off the map happens all the time to AIs.

the routing off field before even missile fire is just strange.

[Tricky Lady]

It happened to me when facing a Mongol invasion when playing the Byzantines...
Perhaps my memory's a little affected, but IIRC they outnumbered me 2:1 and still marched off the map without even coming closer. They just appeared and immediately withdrew.
I do remember that I had a lot of VGs though and a 9-star general.

Perhaps that was the reason?
Anyway I was really puzzled. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-huh.gif

[katank]

that happens frequently in marching quickly off the field but according to the original poster, the opposing army was routing off the field which is strange.

[Tricky Lady]

Hmm, yes you're right...
But still found it weird that they didn't try to beat me...

[katank]

what about the holy spot thing?

they love to park in a tiny square with their backs facing you and get shot up.