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RedKnight
07-15-2004, 04:11
Some observations on using troops to increase taxes...

1) Each 100-man unit causes province loyalty to increase by 16.00 to 16.67 (it's 16.67 rounded down, so 1 peasant unit gets you 16 loyalty, 3 get you 50). It doesn't matter which kind of troop you use, peasants or royal knights - only the number of warm bodies. So use the lowest maintenance/man units you can find as tax collectors, which is 37 for 100 peasants (0.37/man). Other 0.37/man units are: common archer units EXCEPT vanilla archers https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif (xbows and arbs, shield or no), arquebusiers, gallowglasses, highlanders, kerns, nubian spears, and woodsmen.

2) Each increase in the tax rate causes an equal and opposite decrease in loyalty. Relative to the Normal tax rate, Very Low income is -25%, Low is -10%, High is +10%, and Very High is +25%. Thus e.g. going from Very Low to Low is a change of 15% - and causes a drop of 15 Loyalty. (If you test this in the game, you'll see the percent increase clearly with farms, but trade has a lot of rounding in it, so it only approximates this. Also, mines and cathedrals are not affected by tax rate.)

3) To go from Very Low to Very High is a net change of 50% income and causes a drop of 50 loyalty - which would need 3 peasant units to counter. Three peasants cost 111/turn.

4) Thus, in order to be worth it, peasants should be used (for tax collection) in regions where 50% of the Normal income is at least 111 - or in other words, where Normal income is at least 222. Income versus tax rate for a Normal=222 province are shown below.

But there are inefficiences built into using tax collectors: There's an initial build cost, time wasted moving to the target province, and in particular, the fact that there'll almost always be extra peasants past what you need for Very High (you can't break up the unit to make it exactly enough for Very High). This isn't as bad as it sounds - you wouldn't want provinces teetering on the edge of rebellion. (Although sometimes, of course, you might deliberately want rebellion.) Also, auto-tax has a window of +20 loyalty before it moves to the next higher bracket, to ward off rebellion (a real problem with the MTW 1.0 autotax). Anyway: there'll always be some peasants wasted (if we're talking precise); more than one if you use auto-tax (peasants increase loyalty by 16; the autotax window is 20). In short, for a more relaxed fit of provinces that are worth tax collectors, the income should be bumped up a little.

Here are province tax income levels for a precise fit (peasants cost 37/turn) or a more realistic relaxed fit (50/turn; Normal=300). Provinces should at least have these incomes at the given tax level, for tax collectors to pay for themself:

Tax level: Very Low, Low, Normal, High, Very High

Precise fit province: 167, 200, 222, 244, 278

Relaxed fit province: 225, 270, 300, 330, 375

5) The above figures apply to total province income for farms and trade. Other modifiers (governor and king, farm level, etc.) don't matter per se; just that farm+trade exceeds the income shown. Mine and cathedral income is not affected by tax level, so it should be excluded if you're being precise.

Yours in efficient pillaging and plundering https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Louis VI the Fat
07-15-2004, 04:29
Thanks RK, good stuff.

I've long since applied the principle of this in my games, but not beyond the level of 'well, guess there's no point in wasting 37 gold to gain just handful by adding another unit in the Sinai...'

I'll keep your more exact numbers in mind.

Doug-Thompson
07-15-2004, 04:55
If these numbers prove true, this is an excellent post. It answers a fundamental question I've wondered about for a long time.

Seven.the.Hun
07-15-2004, 07:46
good stuff https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

Ulair
07-15-2004, 13:33
Hey, RK does it again with a cracking post Admit it, you've taken a PhD in MTW economics https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

afrit
07-15-2004, 13:57
Thanks for the calculations. And pointing out that non-peasant units also cost .37 per man. Now I can have garrisons that can actually fight

I always have auto-tax on (even with MTW 1.1). To find out if moving a unit of peasants in a province is worth it, I usually move a unit there from a neighbor province and watch the change in income. If it is more thant 37, I order a new unit for that province.

By sticking to the rule that all my provinces get a 4 acumen governor (or at least a 3 feather guy), I find that almost all of them are worth taxing max.

afrit

RedKnight
07-16-2004, 01:20
Thanks, everybody It's a small but interesting factoid, for those who like to dig deeper. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif I used to do like you folks are saying... just see if it seems worth it by moving a unit in. But a lot of the time I got lazy and just pegged everybody at Very High. Due to the fact that provinces initially need a lot of troops (then get better), that approach left me with a lot of excess peasants after a while. Now that I've got a rule of thumb, I can just glance at the income instead of screwing with peasants.

Afrit, many provinces are worth tax collectors with their farms and trade built up, especially if you've been targetting rich provinces (who wouldn't). Many aren't worth tax collectors at the 0% farm level, though. I've got all the provinces in a database, and assuming a guv acumen of 4 (modifier 1.4) and a king acumen of 4 (modifier 1.08; his feathers are worth 2%), plus an extra 10% thrown in because one or the other is liable to be a Steward, arrives at the following number of provinces being worth it, based on farm income only (worth it = Normal of 300, aka 375 at Very High taxes):

0% Farm: 35 provinces
20% Farm: 56 provinces
40% Farm: 73 provinces
60% Farm: 78 provinces
80% Farm: 83 provinces

Out of 98. But since farms are often built up at least some, and other provinces can trade too, it doesn't usually look as bleak as 0% suggests.

Arabia is the worst... rock deserts suck, I guess. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-inquisitive.gif

Keep on tax collecting https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

katank
07-16-2004, 16:58
nice post.

with border fort, town watch, church/mosque, tavern, and keeping the place for a decade or two and perhaps a religious agent, spy, and assaisin posted there, I'm usually able to achieve very high taxes with only 1 peasant unit.

if Arabia is at 200 loyalty on very high taxes, why not keep it that way?

I need 100 anyhow to prevent bandits.

BTW, I almost never build peasants for garrisons any more.

I replace them with slav warriors who cost as much upkeep and can put up a decent fight.

RedKnight
07-17-2004, 00:07
Excellent points about the happy buildings and slav warriors, katank. There are also units like Swiss Pikes which are only a little more (0.50/unit) but way more effective than peasants. My unit & building info is from before VI - what other VI units are .37/man, do you know? (hmm, I should check the lib... is there an updated unit info spreadsheet there?)

Happy buildings are the gift that keeps on giving, since they need no upkeep. Here's (http://home.speedfactory.net/mikestar/HappyBuildings1.htm) a little table, again, for MTW buildings. Churches and mosques are most cost-effective for happiness (i.e. loyalty) at 10 per happy point. This compares with peasants (37/turn for ~16.5 loyalty) which are 2.24 per happiness (37/16.5) but the peasants are an ongoing fee whereas the church is a one-time charge, so the church is the better deal after 4 turns (10/2.24=4.46; 8 turns including build time). That makes it a great deal, given the long MTW time scales. Other buildings are not as good a deal, but still, they're one-time charges so they're better in the long run. Like you're saying though kat, provinces get better over time, so it's good that the game has ways to deal with both the short-term, high loyalty needs, and the long term lower needs.

On my old spreadsheet, I didn't see a happiness bonus for fort, town watch, or tavern... is this a chnage in VI? or is it some other type of bonus. Oh and - any idea how much the agents help happiness? I wonder how they'd do on a cost-effectiveness basis. Then again some are harder to quantify, it seems.

And another thing... does anybody know for sure that the buildings' happiness and morale increases are additive or just replacing previous values? That is, if you build a church, a monastery, and a reliquery, will new troops be +4 morale and the province +60 happy, or is it the highest and thus just +2 morale and +30 happy?
Keep on conquering https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif Hey it's Friday https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/barrel.gif

katank
07-17-2004, 00:40
celtic warriors are the king of cheap garrison troops at only 22 florins a turn for a 100 men.

Doug-Thompson
07-19-2004, 22:42
Quote[/b] (RedKnight @ July 14 2004,22:11)]Other 0.37/man units are: common archer units EXCEPT vanilla archers https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-anxious.gif (xbows and arbs, shield or no), arquebusiers, gallowglasses, highlanders, kerns, nubian spears, and woodsmen.
Unless I'm mistaken, Slav Warriors needs to be added to the list.

Golden Horde Warriors, too. You can't make them without modding but you can bribe them.

All Golden Horde units are insanely cheap to maintain, considering what you get.

RedKnight
07-23-2004, 01:39
thanks, D-T and kat - right, I only have a spreadsheet for pre-VI units. anybody know an updated spreadsheet posted somewhere?

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