Ineffective units...

[RollingWave]

Although I think CA did a pretty good job to make almost all of the many many units in this game useful to some extend... but there are still some that just seem to be not so worthwhile if you factor in their ability compare to requriements/cost/and otehr similiar units etc....

Here's a few obvious once...

Ghulam cav: high req (not much easier to get than Fedual knights) but not very powerful... if you get v2 once from lesser armenia I guess they are ok... but obviously if ur in lesser armenia you oculd easily get the v2 armenia cav which has a better charge and everything else is the same... while are far easier to access..... being only 25 gold cheaper while a gazzillion time higher req is .... only the almos might even consider using it much imho.... and even then using high valor saharan in conjunction with bodyguards tend to work jsut as well and cheaper....

Abyssian guard: i think someone in CA might have made a error in it's upkeep entry or something (like putting a extra 1 XD)... these things themself aren't horrible.. until you consider they break the bank like knights to keep them in numbers... while they certainly aren't knights and ghazis are a age ealier and if used well can be even more effective ....

Berbers: I think they are slightly overpriced.... they cost like horse cavs but they lack the most fundemental advantage of horse cavs... being fast..... they can't outrun other cavs.. although they can beat most light cavs which makes them useful as protection for ur desert archers... but i don't think that trade is really worth the speed loss.. as they are basically unusable in terms of normal HA tactics....they are only useable if u build them out of morroco... which at least make them decent archers...

Add on.

[Quokka]

Lithuanian Cavalry: Horrendous build requirements for essentially Mounted Sergeants with +1 Def and only available in Lithuania and Livonia.

Janissary Archers: All that building for a 1 Att/ 0 Def Archer? Add a Swordsmiths Guild and get the much better Janissary Infantry.

[Axeknight]

Handgunners and Aquebusiers - Sloooooooow reload time (you only get one shot before the enemy's on you), even the lightest of cavs ride right over em like they weren't there, and the morale effect isn't useful anyways (organ guns are much better for that, especially fired into a mob of knights or on the extreme flank shooting into a melee, and they come in around the same time anyways). What can these guys do that arbs can't? I don't like em

[katank]

abyss guard are useless

JAs with valor bonus in Georgia are quite decent.

The handguns and arqs are useful. the gunpowder morale penalty is awesome.

they are also great at AP and can smash armor like nothing by shooting into rear of pinned knights.

the have decent defence and armor and the handguns are just about maa.

[RollingWave]

Right... forgot about lith cav... that's the same as the ghulam situation but a gazillion time worse XD...

Oh here's another one i forgot.

Ballista: let's face it... except maybe against a fort it's usless in a seige... and in a battle it's like a super long ranged single archer that can't move..... but i rather have 60 shorter ranged archer thx. it's not accurate enough and only hit's one unit at a time... except for the very rare occasion where you kill a king/general or something archers will always get much more kills while are much more tactically flexible.

[katank]

ballistas do have their uses.

they are quite accurate and good anticav if you have spear protection.

a pity that it can only kill one man at a time so 28 kills max.

[Armchair Athlete]

Spanish Javlinmen. Why build them at all when you can get the outstanding Spanish Jinettes?

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (Armchair Athlete @ July 18 2004,00:41)]Spanish Javlinmen. Why build them at all when you can get the outstanding Spanish Jinettes?
You get 20 more of them and they do'nt take up as much room, plus javelins are quite deadly and those extra 20 can make a big difference

[Gith]

To state the obvious just for kicks, peasants.

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[gaijinalways]

Peasants have their uses. There have been quite a few threads on this topic already, so briefly they can be used as;

A flank attacker

artillery fodder

a delayer

a distracting force

I would say camels are less useful (damn slow), pav albs and pav xbows in attacks (to slow to advance quickly and too slow to retreat off even in some defense situations) the extra shielding doesn't help when you are running, love cutting these guys down)

But in a sense, some units seem too expensive or take too long to make (building requirements) or too limited to an area (Swiss pikemen are great if you get Switzerland and don't finish the game before you get a chance to build them)

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ] Abyssian guard: i think someone in CA might have made a error in it's upkeep entry or something (like putting a extra 1 XD)... these things themself aren't horrible.. until you consider they break the bank like knights to keep them in numbers... while they certainly aren't knights and ghazis are a age ealier and if used well can be even more effective ....


If I remember correctly, the reason why they are so expensive is that they are a guard unit, so all that money goes to weapon polishing https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif (a CA member told this so...).


Citera[/b] ]abyss guard are useless as is abyss guard. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

And handgunners and arqs are excellent if you know how to use them, I've killed 150+ with arqs, by using point blank range and not spending all my ammo.

Citera[/b] ]What can these guys do that arbs can't? I don't like em
They can kill 30 men in one volley if used right. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Mamluk handgunners is quite useless to, their only use is that they is more useful in the desert in a long battle. The regular handgunners ends up exhausted and after that they are useless.

Hashishin, they are good but with extreme building requirements or only available by Jihads. But their unit is too small, the only useful 12 men unit is berserks. They might be used as ambushers, but they still need the enemy to rout.
Same thing for Sherwood foresters (well not building requirements but availability).

[Demon of Light]

Viking Thralls. These guys are basically peasants with shields.

Bulgarian Brigands. As archers, they are on par with vanilla and in melee, they rout. Often, they rout before they even engage the enemy in a battle you're winning.

Ballista. Grossly ineffective and takes up a valuable unit slot

Not a combat unit but I also find Orthodox Bishops to be close to useless. Who needs faithful parishioners without Crusades or Jihads? To prevent revolts that almost never happen?

Urban Militia. Just build literally any combat building afterwords to get better troops.

[Ludens]

-Crossbowmen, Gendarmes, Khazar Royal Cavalry: none of these guys is useless, but all are made redundant by a small upgrade.
-Ballista: can't hit anything smaller than a wall, and for sieges there are better options.
-Trebuchet/Mangonel: to weak, a catapult is cheaper and is much more accurate.
-Viking Thralls: see Demon of Light
-Abessynian Guard: they should be powerful Gazi, instead they are just expensive Gazi.

[katank]

@AA, spanish javs are also a lot cheaper and more expendable than jinettes.

@ironside, I must have been drunk when I wrote that.

@DOL, ballista are ok very early on in the game as close to 28 guaranteed kills of a cav unit can take away much power from the enemy.

brigands are good skirmishers and are fast. their morale needs some work but they get a valor bonus and a church and chapterhouse would fix the morale up to reasonable.

UMs are extremely useful in the forest and as the HRE, have saved my sorry butt on many an occasion. they are the only AP capable troops you get fort level.

they make capable flankers and rear attackers, particularly against pinned armor.

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] ]Viking Thralls. These guys are basically peasants with shields.

And that actually helps against cav charges and arrows. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
But yes, it's a peasant unit not a spearman.

I think I've been quite successful modding the game BTW, most units have a purpose now and are used.

And Katank what valour did those ballistas have? It think they can be useful at high valour in the way you described, but usually they got 0 valour and hit like 2 guys in a battle.

[katank]

I've used ballista in a single battle and it scored about a dozen kills. next battle, it kill 28.

it was bridge defense of khazar and I parked it at point blank range.

soon after, it was a virtual sniper.

taking down 28 heavy cav, often the general is nothing to sneer at to me, although arbs will probably get more kills in.

[PseRamesses]

I must confess I´ve never used foot javelins. It´s just based on their poor performance when I go against them so I really have no experience with them. Most units I´ve found a use for but thoose darn javelins are no good IMHO. Anyone found them really usefull?

[ah_dut]

hello, PseRamesses the reason that the AI can't use foot javs is skirmish. if you take it off and they get even 1 volley in they can do some decent damage, i like them personally https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[RollingWave]

Javilns in general are very good ... if you want a good small very effective budget army you should always pack it with 1-2 group of javlin men... cause these dudes have the ability to litterally blow away a unit of ur choosing in very very short time (everything from peasent to kings....)
and most of them (espically jinnets) perform relatively well in melee (for their cost)

Urban milita are good units.... not because their stats is awsome or antyhing but cause they are the second lowest req general unit in the game.... when used out of neccesity they are still quiet useful for their cost/req...

Camels rule .... they are even more cost effective than spears vs cavs (even outside of desert).... while moving faster makes them more useful in rout chasing and to chase out foot archers (not ur best option.. but a better one than most things on foot) and their cost req (esppically for eggies) is basicall on par with peasents XD

Peasents are at least good for garrison.. :P though yes never use them in battle unless forced to.....

Brigades are not bad... in fact any archer that can get a valor bonus province are better than vilinna archers....

crossbows are useless though.... they shoudla been a age earlier than arbs which also make pavised arbs useless too... but pavised arbs are sick on the defense and even offesne if u do it right.. even imbaled cause they are basically invunerable to ranged fire themself

treb/mong are acturally somewhat more useful than catapult vs higher lvl castles but you need to be good at positioning.... and pults are much easier to get while more useful overall... so not a great

[solypsist]

i never found the hashishen to be worth the slot in a full banner.

[katank]

I like javs since they are the best jedi/heavy cav killers in early

pin with spears, take them off skirmish and hand target them.

killing half a unit of knights in a single volley definitely helps your side.

throw them from the rear of the knights if possible and after expending them, charge

they are also rather fast and can often chase down routers

[Armchair Athlete]

I have to disagree about the Spanish Javlinmen, Jinettes are faster (easier to keep alive), better fighters, higher morale (I think) and still easy to get (can be built in Leon which has a horse breeder in the start of any era). Sure you get 20 more Javlins per throw with Spanish Javlinmen, but the Jinettes outshine it in nearly every other way. Javlins are certaily good units. But not Spanish Javlimen when better Javlin uits are available.

[katank]

they are cheaper, cost less to maintain and are overall more expendable.

you rather lose a cheapo foot jav than a unit of cav that you paid 250 for, 2/3 the price of an RK.

[Armchair Athlete]

that is true, but if you are using Jinettes properly then very few will die anyway, due their speed they can outmanuever many attackers and only pick fights that suit them. They are also capable of easily attacking and defeating archers their main enemy. Something Spanish Javlinmen have a very difficult time doing (due to speed).

[The_Emperor]

All units have their uses in my opinion, but as for the more useless ones there are a few I never build...

Peasants These guys are only good for a cheap garisson or for soaking up arrow fire or assaulting a castle gate, cheap and expendable.

Urban Militia, same as Peasants but with an AP attack... They run just the same.

Bombards. Can't turn, chance of it blowing up goes up by 10% for every shot after its 3rd volley.

Mangonnels & Trebuchets, can't turn and much less useful than Catapults... Also by the time you manage to tech up to Mangonnels (Master Siege Engineer) you probably already have gunpowder.

Gendarmes, Why would you actually WANT to have these guys when you already have superior Chivalric Knights??

[WorkNeglecter]

Arab infantry. I raised this question recently and was roundly criticised for using Arab inf in battle. I have to agree that they are in all ways inferior to ghazis. The only way to make them worth it is to mod their defense up a bit from -2 to 0, that makes them okay.

But that's a mod, and therefore outside this discussion.

[ah_dut]

we're not really doing anything arab inf are useless though... that's a definite. Lith cav suck even more though https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/angry.gif

[The_Emperor]

Good point, no use building them when you have Ghazis.

[econ21]

Good thread - I agree with most of the picks here, but would put in a word for urban militia. I don't build them much, but they are ok in the very early stages. They are competitive with vanilla spearmen (attack 2, def -1 vs. attack -1, def -1), especially if strung out two wide. I don't think their morale is particularly bad. They certainly can't really be compared with peasants - who are defence -4. Of course, they are totally redundant when you can get MS or FMAA but for those you need a keep, which can take time in the first reign or two of the game.

[The_Emperor]

To be honest i'd rather take vanilla spearmen along than Urban militia, somehow they are more useful to me.

[ah_dut]

I prefer UM's as in tuscany u get a bonus and they have axes which allow them to compete better in the latter stages of the game. Also in the early perios they'll save your butt as the HRE

[Tozama]

Quote[/b] (gaijinalways @ July 18 2004,02:21)]Swiss pikemen are great if you get Switzerland and don't finish the game before you get a chance to build them
Well put.
I find myself getting Switzerland later in the game when I am English or anything other than HRE or France and I am all excited to start building up to those great SAPs.
By the time eternity passes waiting for all the long build times to achieve any pikemen there, much less armored ones, I am holding back on attacks delaying the final advances of the game just so I can use them to see how great they are.
Right now I am English and own 75% of the map and am basically holding borders just against Russia and a few places in Italy. I have so many gold shielded stacks with 9 star generals it isn't even funny. I could finish the game in short order as nothing really challenging is left to face me but I so seldom get to use SAPs I am sitting back awaiting the building que in Switzerland just for a chance to use them. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-furious3.gif

[MadKow]

Some units just don't make sense if you are playing in a certain way, but may make sense in another.

For example, i always thought Ottoman Infantry was useless because when you get them you are far into the Janissary Army build. But if you are playing a Late game they make a lot more sense. Same goes for Ottoman Sipahi.

Stuff like Abyssinian Guards is a lot more dificult to justify.

[katank]

I don't know about siphai. the AHC are far stronger and cheaper (upkeep, therefore long term cost) only an argument can be made better desert performance and ubiquitous availability is able to save siphai from obselete.

I still only build AHC and not siphais unless for kicks.

[Sociopsychoactive]

I thought I'd just put in a good word for urban militia.

Urban milia are actually brilliant when starting in early. They have minimal build requirements, and are available at least two years before anything else is other than peasants.

If arranged correctly and all other things are equal (especially including moral) they will actually beat a unit of vannila spears. They have to be stretched out two deep so they are longer than the spears, and they have to be left alone for ages with no other things effecting moral and at least half the time they will win.

As the french you will get several UM generals with 4+ stars, hang them back and only use as a last resort and they flank pinned cav reasonably well, take on spears slowly but surely and will win in melee against archers (though thy will fall in seconds to ranged).

peasents on the other hand are completely useless, they run at the first hint of trouble and tend to take most of your army with them. even with valour peasents are useless, but with valour UM are pretty good, as long as you don't let them get shot full of holes.

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (Demon of Light @ July 18 2004,05:19)]Not a combat unit but I also find Orthodox Bishops to be close to useless. Who needs faithful parishioners without Crusades or Jihads? To prevent revolts that almost never happen?
I'm relieved to hear that I wasn't missing anything. I couldn't figure what they were for.

I agree with the earlier post about mameluke handgunners, too. I like the Egyptians but their special handgunner unit is something close to useless. Their upkeep is too high for garrison units and they are a liability in combat.

As for Abyssian Guards, the only time they are really useful is in Jihads, where you don't have to pay that ridiculous upkeep cost.

[Magraev]

Priests aren't useless - not even for the orthodox factions. They're cheap, and I usually have one in each province to make sure my population doesn't change religion.

My priests in foreign lands make sure the population is ready to accept my rule when the time comes. they're also cheap spies to let me know what's going on around the world.

[Doug-Thompson]

Not priests, Magraev: Bishops. Priest can do just as well as bishops for the tasks you've described.

[RollingWave]

That is true.. orthodox bishop are far far less useful than their catholic/muslim counterparts (unless u happen to be the dane/poles :P...) and for mass convergence runs spamming normal priest work much more effeciently.

Urban milita are useful because you need to use them in early XD... obviously later on vinilla spear man would prove more overall useful... but UM is needed when you lack better options.

Speaking of Siphia..... the siphia of porte isn't much better either... 20 unit horse archer makes them about as useful as hashihash that runs faster but can't hide get's countered by much more things and doesn't have as awsome an attack power.... turk's late era units aer in general a dissapointment compare to the awsome **** they get in early/high



I usualy think that anything that's very cheap and low price/upkeep/requirment usually won't be completely useless (like peasents... always build 1 in back province for garrison espically on harder settings)

[katank]

slav warriors are usually a far better choice than peasants when you can for garrisons as are nubian spears etc.

[Sociopsychoactive]

True, slav warriors and ziking thralls make far better garrison units,. they have the same pitifull upkeep cost and beter stats, in the case of thralls they make reasonable throw-away spearmen, as long as you can stop them running for long enoug.

[katank]

actually, celtic warriors are the kings of garrisons.

they are dirt cheap at 22 florins upkeep for a 100 man unit compared with 37 for peasants etc.

[ah_dut]

celts harder to get though, to be honest i've got a list on my condensed MTW econnomics if anyone wants to know an ubercheap garrison unit, it's in the guides forum.
GTG https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

[katank]

celts are hard to get but if you hold both Ireland and Wales, you'll have plenty of cheapo garrisons soon.

[Kristaps]

a few more words in defense on urban milita: (1) they are an excellent 'early-game' unit - i use them even to kill royal bodyguards (in forests); (2) they are excellent in the desert; even militia sergeants tire out fast in the heat whereas militia can go on forever. by the mid-day of the battle they are able to kill almokhad militia and byzantine infantry with ease; (3) their upkeep (30) makes them one of the most economic units to form the bulk of your early armies; compare this to the upkeep of spears (52)...

[katank]

I've actually pumped up UMs before (mainly as the french due to their high star UM gens) as well as Italians due to Tankerville and Tuscany valor bonus.

they are quite capable melee troops if you give them a little armor.

as kristaps said, in forests or desert, they acquit themselves well.

I've also many times pinned with a spear and then rear attacked knights with UMs and killed them quite easily.

once MS are up, they are somewhat obselete except for desert as Kristaps mentionned although I lean more towards clansmen and gallows as well as kens in the desert.

seems those boys fit right in across the map.

[Doug-Thompson]

Big, important question.

What is the probability for producing a high-acumen unit?

You can't convince me that some types aren't substanially more prone to produce high-acumen governors.

If Slav Warriors were twice as prone to be high-acumen than a peasant, for instance, then there really is no reason to make peasants.

[katank]

I don't know but I've got plenty of high acumen slav warriors.

I also got a 9 acumen saharan cav which was cool.

[Armchair Athlete]

actually I always seem to get lots of high acumen slav warriors too, I only build 2-3 for garrisons per province but there is always at least one of those that has 4 acumen. I build a lot of Halberdiers (with +4 weapons from Hungary, haha) and hardly ever seem to get any 4 acumen guys. I dont know if its random or not, but sure looks fishy to me.

[RollingWave]

Not sure bout accutemen but in genearl it seems that religious oriented troops usually produce higher priety generals.... (ghazi... crusade units.... futuwaas etc...)

[katank]

also, if the crusade/jihad succeeds, the leader gets some addition to their piety IIRC.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (RollingWave @ July 21 2004,07:29)]Not sure bout accutemen but in genearl it seems that religious oriented troops usually produce higher priety generals.... (ghazi... crusade units.... futuwaas etc...)
Actually, the key to producing high peity units is high zeal: once the zeal is 80%+ (could be the treshold is lower), most of the units produced in the province will have very high peity. units located in the high zeal province are likely to develop peity/zeal enhancing virtues (like zealot, believer, etc.)

[katank]

that's why inquisitors and imams are powerful in making your entire empire nice and zealous.

I like using tons of religious agents. uniformly my religion and zealous is not only good for happiness but also gives powerful crusades and jihads.

woes be those who cross me or the full power of my faith shall be unleashed

I think I want to have orthodox crusades or somthing which would make religious agents useful for the orthodox, particularly the orthodox bishop.

[RollingWave]

Not to meantion that by sending masses of ur religious agents into enemy land of different religion(espically useful for orthodox and muslim... slightly less for catholic due to most faction around u being the same faith and can back fire if u get excommed) will bring them down to their knees as it significantly raises the chance for rebellions espically in ungarrisoned provinces... (combining mass conversion with mass spy = gg)

[katank]

yep, I've had massive Imam rushes which were really funny.

[RollingWave]

I found that when i covert large protions of catholic lands their crusade tend to grow much slower and fade much quicker :P

[andrewt]

I find that the Turks have a lot of redundant units. They get a total of 7 different foot archer units. 2 (archers, desert archers) are pure archers while 5 are hybrids. Of these 5, only the Janissary Infantry are actually decent in a melee. The other 4 are only slightly better than regular archers. The Futuwwa might be the next more useful one since they have a decent charge. You don't really want them and the others to get into a melee.

[cutepuppy]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,18:23)]celts are hard to get but if you hold both Ireland and Wales, you'll have plenty of cheapo garrisons soon.
I have Ireland, I would spend my money on gallowglasses instead of celtic warriors, a much better unit.

[ah_dut]

for garrison no, for fighting yes, we're taliking garrisons here

[RollingWave]

Hmmm for the turks archers... normal archer is needed cause desert archer is limited to a few province ..(even though they are more useful in almost every way)

Although jannisary infantry is obvious the best of all the hybrids... they are a high age unit with a stiff req and can only be built in one province unless u mod or go through long pain of demolishing and rebuilding grand mosque...

Futuwaa and turcoman are both quiet useful.... futuwaa are like a ghazi with a bow... they are very powerful on the flank.. while turcoman aer surprisingly resistent in melee.... they can hold the line quiet well and let you flank... (unlike most other archer when something hit them their dead)... turcoman also gets a valor bonus province which means they are more effective than normal archers....

Jannisary archers however is useless unless u mod so u can built multiple academy easier..

Ottoman infantry are useful if u start a late era game but that's it.

[Fragony]

The only useless units I can think of are Lithaunian GAH spelling cavalry and the egyptian axeman. Someone mentioned gendarmes, I LOVE them. They are not a flashy unit, but when you reach late you should have teched up far enough to build them everywhere You want halbadiers/CMAA in late, and you will commit a lot of provinces to build them, build the latest militia when you hit late and without the armorer/horse/estate requirements you have LOADS of superheavy cavalry

[RollingWave]

Hmmm after a bit more play/though....

crossbows: they are acturally not bad if ur the turks... the only reason they really suck is because of arbalest:/... otherwise they still prove much more effective at anti armor range than other archers...

Ottman infantry: they aren't that bad.... they are cheaper and can be built everywhere (unlike JI) and have a armor piercing attack...

Ottman Sipahi: ok they are total crap.... they are basicaly saharan cav with a bit more defense but less speed.... their attack make them rather useless against anything except archers... their extra defense is still not nearly enough to make them fight heavier cav and they really don't ahve enough charge to make them serious flankers. ... as for medium cav goes I rather have something like mounted sergents that have a real charge.....

Sipahi of porte: ok... 20 unit horse archers??? no thx.. half unit boyar that comes at late = suck.