Anti-armor bonus

[Doug-Thompson]

Does an anti-armor bonus apply to attacks on structures, such as the gates of forts, etc.? I always assumed it does but would like to know for certain.

[katank]

gates have armor?

[Doug-Thompson]

I don't know. I did figure, however, that an axe would be a better tool for getting through a castle door than a sword.

Apparently, I'm wrong. It took 120 Vikings 10 seconds longer than the same number of Feudal Men at Arms to chop through the same door.

[Drake]

Castles have their own stats don't they? For example it takes less shots to down a Fort wall then a Fortess, so surely there are stats applicable to gates as well. Gates might not be armoured though, maybe just considered stronger, call it better craftmanship or something, but then again a steel portcullis would be stronger then a wooden door. Worth looking up.

[katank]

probably the only good way is to do unit testing like Doug was doing.

@doug, viks have 1 less armor point. could it be that their casualties from castle was higher and hence they couldn't hack as much?

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,09:38)]
@doug, viks have 1 less armor point. could it be that their casualties from castle was higher and hence they couldn't hack as much?
I thought the same thing at first, katank, but it doesn't work out that way.

The Vikings cut through in 1 minute, 38 seconds with 96 men left. The feudal men@arms cut through in 1 minute, 28 seconds with 105 left, I believe.

So the average number of Vikings hacking at the gate at any one time was (120+96)/2 = 108. The average number of FM@A was 112 or 113. Sure, that's a significant difference, but not enough.

The Vikings did roughly 1 percent damage per second, a "batting average" of .0094 damage per Viking per second.

The FM@A "batting average" was .010

[katank]

ummm, so much for that theory.

how do they get AP bonus if we aren't even sure if gates have armor let alone how much.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (Doug-Thompson @ July 20 2004,10:22)]
Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,09:38)]
@doug, viks have 1 less armor point. could it be that their casualties from castle was higher and hence they couldn't hack as much?
I thought the same thing at first, katank, but it doesn't work out that way.

The Vikings cut through in 1 minute, 38 seconds with 96 men left. The feudal men@arms cut through in 1 minute, 28 seconds with 105 left, I believe.

So the average number of Vikings hacking at the gate at any one time was (120+96)/2 = 108. The average number of FM@A was 112 or 113. Sure, that's a significant difference, but not enough.

The Vikings did roughly 1 percent damage per second, a "batting average" of .0094 damage per Viking per second.

The FM@A "batting average" was .010
i would suggest that the stand-alone test differences in performance can be explained by the random nature of chopping results (each blow by the viking/fma has a certain chance of 'landing successfully' even on a gate). in order to obtain any kind of statistical confidence this test should be carried over a good number of times and the results averaged across all tests. otherwise, the difference between the fma and vikings gate chopping performance does not convince me: it seems, it is statistically insignificant.

also, when chopping gates one should consider how many individual soldiers get to land a blow at the same time. is it the same rule as for units in combat: that no more than 2 can land a blow at the same time? if not, then how many? i have witnessed that the rate of breaking down the gate does not go down even if only a few men are left chopping, suggesting that the same melee combat limitation (2 men per attack) is still enforced in the case of gates.

i suspect, the formation of the unit plays a role if more than two can attack at the same time. (in my experience, spears in 'attack at will' break the gate down much faster than spears in 'hold formation'), but this could be due just to the fact that they have higher attack value in 'engage at will'.

on another note, i am not sure, the pure play-time should be used to compare results. in my experience, the battle engine runs slower if virus scan/other programs are running in the background, suggesting, units might not produce the same number of blows given different cpu loads.

still, another consideration is that it takes a rather significant amount of armor to make a lower attack armor piercing unit to be superior to a higher attack no-armor piercing unit... anyways, as far as gate chopping goes, peasants do a nice job for me... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif at times, i even get the same peasant unit to break down both gates... :)

[katank]

why attack the gate?

I find that breaking down walls is actually faster and it doesn't shut behind you.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,14:19)]why attack the gate?

I find that breaking down walls is actually faster and it doesn't shut behind you.
well, one cannot break the walls of anything higher than a fort (the inner circle, or built up outer circle) using 'manual labor'... One needs seige machinery for that. And that's something that my armies frequently forget at home. Then, it's the peasant who has to attend to his duties ;)

BTW, broken gates do not shut behind you ;)

[katank]

I don't know. I keep on ending up forcing the gates and then getting it closed behind me.

I either autocalc sieges or bring along a full blown siege train that can take down most walls and half the defenders before I bring my guys in to charge.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,15:50)]I don't know. I keep on ending up forcing the gates and then getting it closed behind me.
hmm, never seen that. i've seen thought that if a defender unit charges through the gates; then withdraws back into the castle and the attacker follows - the gates close behind the attacker. nevertheless, it was MY defender unit not AI's... never seen AI do that :)

[Doug-Thompson]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,11:04)]ummm, so much for that theory.

how do they get AP bonus if we aren't even sure if gates have armor let alone how much.
Apparently, they don't. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/mecry.gif


Quote[/b] ]in order to obtain any kind of statistical confidence this test should be carried over a good number of times and the results averaged across all tests.

Go right ahead. I'm done.

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,16:50)]I don't know. I keep on ending up forcing the gates and then getting it closed behind me.

I either autocalc sieges or bring along a full blown siege train that can take down most walls and half the defenders before I bring my guys in to charge.
You know you do'nt have to march in when the gate opens. you can always keep on attacking the gate until it is completely broken.

The worst 1 the A.I has done to me is I open the gate to lure that unit in but instead that unit held the gate open while the rest of there army rushed in and slaughtered me. Well so much for the pyrhic victory. They still took heavy losses but could have been a lot more if that unit did not hold the gate.

Unortanetly the program isnt desigend to slam the gate down on the enemy wich would be cool.

[Medieval Assassin]

I hate when I send out a unit of Hobilers to take out there siege, only they rout after killing the siege, run back through my gate and let in a bunch of enimes. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif

[Oaty]

Quote[/b] (Medieval Assassin @ July 21 2004,22:59)]I hate when I send out a unit of Hobilers to take out there siege, only they rout after killing the siege, run back through my gate and let in a bunch of enimes. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-wall.gif
You probably fought them right at the gate then and therefore it would never close but if you keep your forces away from the gate and there is a break in there reinforcements the gate will close on them and trap them in for some time wich usually leads to an easy route

[katank]

yep, it's best to have a box of troops around a space for the gate to accommodate one enemy unit and then to chew it up from all sides, often with the gate closing behind it