"The Art of War"

[Silianat]

What do you think of the reveared Sun Tzu's manual on War. I find that it is not anly good for fightign battles, but also helpful in fixing problems or running a business. If you haven't yet read the Art of War you should go to your local bookstore and buy it or look for it on the intrenet. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif

Silianat

[Colovion]

I found it very good at getting the basics of war theory ingrained into my mentality - the whole use your strengths and exploit their weaknesses seems pretty obvious but there are other things that it opens your eyes to and you think wow, that seems so simle, why didn't I think of that?

Deffinately read it. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gregoshi]

It is indeed good, yet simple, information. In relation to the TW games, most of it doesn't seem to be directly applicable to game play. I think this is because most of it has to do with other than fighting a battle itself and the TW games are not yet complex enough outside the battle to utilize The Art of War wisdom. RTW seems like it will be closer to including more aspects of Sun Tzu's masterpiece within the game...or at least I'm hoping.

[Silianat]

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif
Wise words....
Wise words indeed

[massamuusi]

I have a hardcover version on the table next to my bed, I tend to read it quite often... It's really important to keep the basic rules in your mind.

In my opinion it is the basic tool for someone who makes plans. When you are making a plan, have the book open and browse it, and check if you've taken everything into consideration. If you have taken everything into consideration, and done your calculations correct, you will win. Simple, eh?
I think it's the best fundamental strategy guide there is. It doesn't really have any claims that would get old, other than the stuff about war wagons and stuff. Tactical side is maybe bit old, but strategy remains always the same. There are always spies, alliances, generals, etc...

Some of my favourite parts is the one about knowing your enemy/ espionage, and the other one about measurements, if you're succesfull in obtaining information about your enemy and yourself, you can make measurements that allow you to make sound plans.

[Silianat]

Indeed.

massamuusi,
you shoudl probably be promoted pretty fast if you keep up all these bright answers. Good luck see you in the other forums soon.

https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/shogunshame.gif silianat

[Papewaio]

Years ago I used to play the board game Shogun (Samurai Swords to some)... my brother started reading Sun Tzu and applying it in the game (and other areas too)... his ability shot up and he pulled off a few nifty things.

Know Yourself... know your King, Princes and Generals their virtues and vices. Know the worth of your provinces and which ones you should buildup and why. Know your army and your playing style... work on your strengths and shore up your weaknesses.

Control Yourself... get that treasury under control.

Know your enemy... use pieces like bishops and send them deep into enemy territory... know not only what borders you but what they can back that up with.

Have a variety of tactics... a defensice tactic is to minimise the number of provinces that are exposed to the enemy... so a good offensive tactic is to send in a large army deep into enemy territory, pillage and roam around, you don't take territory. You instead destabilise the entire kingdom... a version of this is to hunt down every prince and king of the kingdom and collapse it into a rebel force or better leave the king alone in a single province of minor worth.

[Kaiser of Arabia]

Good read.
-Capo

[caspian]

Me and a friend use the Art of War to manipulate some of our friends. If you know somebody well enough, and choose the time and place, you could just about let them believe anything. While the book is certainly a help while playing Total War, use it in real life and wait just for the results. Couple it with Musashi's 5 Rings and Machiavelli's The Prince, you'd be unbeatable.

[ConstableBrew]

There is a problem when you start applying The Art of War to your daily life. Even more so when you use it to manipulate your friends. The basic fundamental truths that The Art of War, The Prince, and similar books are based on is that you must be detached from your humanity and cease to experience emotions. King Edward and King Henry VIII both astutely applied what these books teach and both became extreamly powerful men. However, I would never teach my children to be as they were. Prehapse that will prevent me from becoming great and powerful and living in a four story beach-side house in the O.C., but then again, maybe I like having neighbors I can call friends and not competition.

[massamuusi]

The best general is not the one who defeats his opponent in a glorious battle, but one who defeats his opponent without a battle.
I did this, I allied with everyone and assassinated their kings and heirs, and all good generals and other agents, I got wide areas without fighting a single battle, also my experienced generals had little to fear from the enemy, who had no experienced generals left.
Also, when you go into war, your goal is to conquer the enemy as quickly as possible with as few casualties to both sides as possible. Plundering and pillage are not optimal strategy, as you want to get control of the enemy infrastructure and facilities. Thus you should make your attacks so that you attack multiple provinces simultaneously in a manner that encourages them to withdraw as many armies as possible, like this, you can conquer 7 or more provinces in a single turn, with a single battle, whilst capturing 6 of the enemy armies, the last one being defeated in an uneven battle. Enemy has no places where to run, and you want his king to be captured too during the first turn. Make the attack so that his kings army will withdraw, but won't have anywhere to withdraw to. Thus he is captured with his army and executed.
The enemy becomes rebels in single turn, and not even the pope will care. Your casualties are minimal.

[zelda12]

Massa thought you couldn't join the .org.

Sorry to hear you banned from the .com

[katank]

all the techiniques cold but effective.

never heard of the 5 rings before.

[Papewaio]

Quote[/b] (ConstableBrew @ July 21 2004,00:05)]There is a problem when you start applying The Art of War to your daily life. Even more so when you use it to manipulate your friends. The basic fundamental truths that The Art of War, The Prince, and similar books are based on is that you must be detached from your humanity and cease to experience emotions. King Edward and King Henry VIII both astutely applied what these books teach and both became extreamly powerful men. However, I would never teach my children to be as they were. Prehapse that will prevent me from becoming great and powerful and living in a four story beach-side house in the O.C., but then again, maybe I like having neighbors I can call friends and not competition.
Actually The Art of War and Five Rings (Haven't read the Prince Machi's work)... can be applied to positive ends as well.

First of all knowing yourself and then knowing others and having multiple skills and ways to solve a situation can be applied in other areas... for myself I have used it when working in IT support...

[ConstableBrew]

True, but I was mostly addressing caspian since he stated that he uses it to manipulate his friends.

[caspian]

I used the principles first without any manipulation in mind, I just want them to walk in a certain path. And when it started working I couldnt stop myself. And the setting was not the best scenario for it. I was one of the leaders of our Youth Group in our Church. And I had a brief glimpse of the power held by Jim Jones and Emperor Hirohito, when blind divine devotion follows a blind carnal calculating mind. Needless to say, God had me stop it. But the Art of War is still a useful giude, still use it while working nowadays. A friend once said, The Bible is the user's manual for Life, while the Art of War is just one of the FAQ's.
--------------

For those who want to read further on these type of works, head over to Sonshi.com (http://www.sonshi.com). Writings of Julius Caesar, Marculs Aureulius and Machiavelli, to name a few.

[massamuusi]

A good general is not cold. He is ready to sacrifice himself to spare his troops and nation. He doesn't care about personal glory.
Also, it was written in AOW, such men are rare.
Even if you can think calculatingly, you can still decide how to use it. To use it to benefit your country, is in my opinion truly putting your skills to use. So long you remember that no matter of your position, you are still a servant of the people.

[Al Khalifah]

I've read the Art of War and similar books of that type and I think that really just reading them won't make the slightest bit of difference to your strategic skills at all. This is because most of the stuff in there is actually quite obvious to anyone. Everyone knows that you should try and outflank your opponent where possible and always have plans for a strategic retreat no matter how well a battle is going.
The difference between a great general and a military historian is that the general can apply the principles of the book in the heat of battle because they are so embedded into the mindset of the general. Military historians can always tell you what the great generals did wrong, but thats because they're not there. In a fair campaign between Hannibal and Dr Neussbacher (sp) from Time Commanders, Hannibal would win because though he might not have read all the books of tactics and stratergy, he could just apply the theories naturally.
After a MTW battle I always watch the replay, win or lose, to see what I did wrong. I've never fought a big battle where I've been happy with everything I did.

[massamuusi]

Now, we've stumbled upon an urban legend here fellows.
Even if you had actually studied military history on extensive scale, it doesn't make you bad, but it doesn't make you good either, as such. Also, being general alone does not make you good or bad. What matters is the person. In modern armies, it is quite a long path to become a general, and modern generals have all (except for those banana nation dudes who got their general rank when their uncle paid the president some royalties https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) studied military history and strategy and tactics extensively.
You have to have strategic and tactical vision of sorts, that is, you have to be the kind of material the generals are made of. If you are, reading military history, sun tzu and other manuals only makes you better, but that is because you can process the teachings in your own brains, you can make conclusions and theories of your own. The better you have read the books, the easier it is to apply their teachings in the middle of battle.

Also, Sun Tzu is largely strategy. As such, all strategists have plenty of time, we're talking about days and years, to browse all availabe literacy to help them plan ahead.
No one is good general if he lacks the strategic&tactical education and general knowledge of military history. And generals of old age are not in my opinion good comparisons, since most generals of old were chosen with bigger value given to their social status than their actual skills.
Also, like Sun Tzu said so many times, just winning a battle doesn't make you good general. If you have bigger and better army, you don't have to be a good general to win. This is a problem with military history- so often people just think about who won, and often they disregard the armies quality and quantity and other factors that make it easier or harder for generals to command.

[HicRic]

I read the Art of War on the internet once and was most unsatisfied. It was rather short and I read it pretty quickly, leading me to believe no such thing could be a book and so therefore I had read an abridged or summarised version of it. Could someone point me to a good link for the Art of War?

[massamuusi]

It is not very long, my finnish translation of it, including some additions like brief overlook of the era it was written on (shorter than the british version) is about 120 pages.
It has poems which are basically lists of the rules of warfare. I can't think of any rule of warfare that was left out, and therefore it is very good for revising plans. If you go through all the advises, I am sure there are always several things that you didn't take into account, no matter how obvious they are. But for me it has more value than a checklist. Especially the commentaries and stories.
Like Sun Tzu wrote, a general who doesn't follow my rules is a poor general- fire him. If a general follows all my rules, hire him. If you want to lead very badly, you can always try to do against his advise. You'll very quickly notice that it's deadly to go against the book.

[ah_dut]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 20 2004,16:45)]all the techiniques cold but effective.

never heard of the 5 rings before.
IIRC the book of 5 rings is by the famous left handed sworsmen Miyamoto Musashi. He pioneered the style of fighting with both the Katana and the Wakizashi. Other than that all i know is he reputedly killed his forst victim at the tender age of 12 https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Louis VI the Fat]

I hear you, ConstableBrew.

I've never read the AOW, but have read Machiavelli's 'the prince'. It describes the mechanics of power, still shockingly accurate to this day. They are indeed very effective tools...for dictators and socially challenged psychopaths.

These principles are fun to use when playing games, but not to be applied in real life by sane human beings. Except for gaining an understanding of how power works and preventing its abuse.


As for Sun Tzu, I'll happily take Papewaio's word that 'The Art of War and Five Rings (Haven't read the Prince Machi's work)... can be applied to positive ends as well.'

[massamuusi]

Btw, many people you might consider normal are actually more or less psycopathic. One of the definitions of psychopath is a person who is unable (or able to not to) feel empathy, compassion, and be bond to other people, instead, sees other people as objects that follow mathematical algorithms, which can be manipulated to further ones own goals.
Troubling thing is, when I've done tests fully sincerely, I have possessed many characteristics of psychopath. But I draw the line where your intentions are. As I always try to be polite to people, and mind all things.

I just wrote a whole bunch of text, after reading the text through (containing private life events etc.) I notice that I truly am a psychopath, but seemingly a good one. What I have observed is, it takes one to know one is very good saying, very true. I see psychopathic behaviour all over the place, someone may be politician, someone may be a teacher, someone may be 'just a guy'.

But nevertheless, be it for good or bad, the books themselves are not good or bad, it depends on the person who uses them. Even if you had hard childhood, you were lonely or whatever you can always try to be good. That's what we are after, I think. There is no reason why you should be evil.
Jesus could've made a much better speech about goodness than I could imagine. And I think he did, but my bible is in finnish and I am not into translating it now.
I would teach the books to my children, but I would also encourage them to the path of good, not force them, just encourage. Trying to force anything on anyone is always bad.