Best-laid plans laid to waste

[Ockham's razor]

I've been playing only my second full campaign in MTW (and my first as the Byzantines.)

I've been playing on easy, just to get the hang of things, and because I wanted to experience what the Horde invasion is like without being totally annihilated.

Most of the campaign was easy, as expected. I built the largest military, and I built a vast trade network. I control the Middle East, having eliminated the Turks and vanquished the Eggies to two provinces. I HAD numerous alliances and more than 200,000 florins in my treasury and growing.

But just as I was beginning to prepare for the Horde invasion, the AI must have decided I was having TOO easy of a time with it. Suddenly the Germans and Hungarians launched a series of insane attacks, including a crusade, against my well-defended western borders. I repelled them, but they are building up their forces again.

About 25 years before the Horde's scheduled arrival, the French began attacking my fleets. They have wiped out virtually my entire navy in the Atlantic and western Med., and now I'm losing Florins at the rate of about 15,000 per turn. I cannot replace boats as fast as they are destroying them.

I'm only a few turns from bankruptcy, but the Horde is coming. What should I do?
One thing I'm wondering is, should I pull most of my forces out of Khazar, Armenia and Georgia and force the Horde to assault my fortresses there, or should I throw everything into those territories and meet them head-on? How long can a fortress withstand an assault by 10 stacks of mongols?

A mighty and mostly peaceful empire is on the verge of crumbling, all because of the stinking French navy.

[G-Con Daniel]

Ok, pull out your troops, defend your King and his heirs. let them take the provinces, slowly rebuild your economy, and THEN attack neighbouring provinces, just to take back what was yours and they should leave you alone.......................... for a while at least


https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-help.gif

[HicRic]

Keep your armies out of the provinces that the Horde appear in-I've heard that their army is proportional to the size of the armies in those provinces. Set up a strong defense in provinces that they will strike out from where they appear and come across rivers-a river defense should throw the odds in your favour.
Other than that-good luck https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Perhaps the casualties caused by the Golden Horde on your army will reduce your upkeep costs, helping to push you closer to making a profit.

[massamuusi]

Yes, I agree with pulling some of the troops out, I'd pull out the elites, and leave all the spearmen and archers into the province, leave the elites to such place from which you can launch counter attacks against their advance, wear them down. Rank and file / spearmen & archers are easy to replace.
As the golden horde can't really make new troops, it is essential to wear them down as quickly as possible before they ever get a chance of retraining.
Small forts are totally useless against them, but if you have big fortress and loads of spearmen, that'll do it.

[katank]

nope, leave them empty and have the armies in adjacent provinces.

after the horde appears, then move units in.

you have max of 960 men so use your elite troops, preferably heavy defensive inf like varangs in your case.

let the fortress wear them down.

also guard Kiev.

have some heavy inf to serve as bridge plug and have loads and loads of archers to shoot down anything that moves.

in bridge and castle defense, some catapults are always nice.

[Ockham's razor]

Thanks for the advice.
The French attacks on my fleet are a huge problem, perhaps a bigger problem than the Horde. I have a large fleet, mostly in the eastern Med. for coastal defenses. But as far as naval war goes, I seem to be in a build three boats -lose four boats spiral. The French seem to be able to destroy my galleys and firegalleys at will.
The AI has also destroyed several boats with storms, as if to say How dare you play the Byz on Easy

Fun game, though. Can't wait for Rome: Total War.
I've been saving up for nearly three years for a new computer, and it looks like I might be able to buy it just in time for RTW.

[mdutr0]

That's odd.

I'm also doing an Early Byz campaign (normal diff.) but I haven't experienced any A.I. backlash and I'm about as far along in terms of expansion and ship distribution, etc. as you seem to be.

The difference? I rushed at the begining of the campaign. It's 1120 and I'm very much in your position in terms of faction elimination, territory ownership, and naval power.

I'm not telling you this to rub it in or anything but to say that as the Byz., rushing can give you an opportunity to set up a trade empire and tech up without such stiff competition (i.e. the French don't have any ships in the Med. Sea yet, only the Italians and me and we're allies). That way when the Horde does come, you'll be that much richer and can handle them with even greater ease. It's easy to rush as the Byz in Early; read the guide section on the forums to find out how.

Besides the Turks and Egyptians put out crap units in the begining of the Early era - mostly peasants and desert archers and a few camels - nothing you can't handle

I realize that this won't help you solve your current problem but it may be helpful in future Byz. campaigns.

For now, I would concentrate on the French. The Horde isn't that big a deal on Easy. Plus, all you have to do is kill Khan and he won't have any heirs and his armies will go rebel It sounds like a tall order but it really isn't. The Khan himself will most likely lead early Horde attacks. Use some Varangians like Katank said and get some Xbows or arbs if possible and he can be killed quite quickly.

As far as the French go, have you tried proposing a ceasefire? Or marrying off a duaghter to them? Either might earn you a respite from that war allowing you to concentrate on the Horde preparations. After the Horde is dealt with, turn around and nail those suckers

Best of luck

Hope this n00b to n00b advice is helpful in some way

Thanks,

Micah

[massamuusi]

It's kind of cool, at least 3 different strategies were proposed, each quite different... And I don't think any of them is better or worse than another, rather they reflect the playing style.
Whereas some see no problem losing a couple provinces for a short time, I am always very reluctant to give up anything without good fight. Just to let them know that it was not free. Sure, sometimes I get more casualties this way than I would have got with wiser withdrawal, but also sometimes I manage to win the superior odds, so it's 50%-50%...

[Ecthelion]

I was playing the Byzantines for the first time on normal, started decently, making inroads into the Turks during the first turn and holding onto Naples and the island provinces. I advanced north into some of the rebel lands to train up a General and get some valour for my roving army. This went well and I then responded to a Sicilian incursion into Naples by eliminating the Sicilians. I moved directly into Egypt after they attacked me from Antioch, then worked from both sides of them until I controlled all of asia minor. By this point I decided to arm up for the horde's invasion. Funded by ships in every sea region and the lucrative trading posts of Constantinople, Sicily, Antioch, Tripoli and Egpyt, I began to amass as big an army as possible while I built up Khazar. By the time the horde invaded I had 15,000 troops in Khazar, including about 1.5k varangian guard and 1k kataphraktoi led by a nine-star general. The horde turned up with 25,000. The battle lasted hours, most of it at maximum speed (the time limit was 410 minutes). I made them rout time after time, constantly peppering them with Trebizond archers with high valour from my campaigning in Egypt but I just ran out of men come the finish. I lost about 5k, killed about 15k. The rest of my army was either withdrawn or routed. To pour salt into the wounds, the Hungarians then started attacking my stretched borders and multiple crusades came at me. I was not amused https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Papewaio]

No French King = No French Fleet.

Send out strategic pieces (priests). Map out all French Provinces.

Take your best non-heir General. Take your best units. Max out a stack with your elites... well mixed.

March across Europe or land as close to the French as you can and head hunt the King. If you kill two Kings in a row quickly it tends to wipe out the entire faction far faster then killing off all the princes then the King.

As for protecting your fleets... consolidate them into one or two fleets that are larger then the French. Start mass producing ships asap. Send fleets that outnumber your enemies by at least 2:1 and attack the French fleets smallest groups (get your admirals stars up). Then work your way up to the big guys... in the process the French will have less fleets attacking you as they group to get away from your wolf packs.

[Kommodus]

It seems to me that your biggest problems are economic in nature. Perhaps you became dependent upon trade to support your huge armies, and didn't have enough of an agricultural base back home. This is always a recipe for trouble. Here's a few things I would do in your situation:

1. Take your huge armies and march westward against Hungary and Germany. This will net you large amounts of plunder while increasing your economic base, and your armies won't be sitting idle while sucking up your resources. Hopefully this will stave off bankruptcy for a while.

2. Stop all building projects except for economic upgrades (particularly farmlands). In fact, be sure you upgrade your farmlands in your rich provinces first, then in others. You need to be able to sustain your armies without trade.

3. Against the French fleet, choose your battles carefully, making sure you outnumber them in every battle. Construct flotillas of about four ships each and use them to attack French fleets with only 1-2 ships. Pull your fleets closer to home if possible; the further they are from home ports, the greater their upkeep costs will be. Thus, do not contest the French for control of the Atlantic or Western Mediterranean; your trade routes are already disrupted and you will gain nothing by it.

4. Against the Mongols, do what others have suggested and stay out of their way; it would be best to avoid war with them for as long as possible. Pull out of Khazar at least (although if you have a citadel or fortress there, it might be OK to leave a small garrison to thin the Horde numbers in a costly assault). Armenia and Georgia have excellent defensive ground, though, and might be worth holding if you can muster a good enough army there. Once, I had 3,000 men (mostly Saracen infantry) to defend Armenia against an onslaught of 5,000 Mongols. I placed by troops on a high mountain and in a forest. The Mongols were afraid to attack, and only a few small skirmishes occurred. Time ran out, and the entire Mongol force had to surrender

In future campaigns, take care of your economy first, and make sure it can stand without trade. Consider trade income an extra bonus that you can use to tech up quickly or use to levy large armies for quick attacks, but do not depend on it.

Good luck

[katank]

taking out the french sounds like good idea.

they do frequently build a sizeable navy.

smash into them a hunter killer stack is good as is the assasination idea.

you should have a 5* assasin producer in Syria by now and no king can stand 20 5*'s in a turn.

wipe them out and it's all good.

I originate many of the blitzes and definitely think that you should have blitzed first but whatever, it's not necessary to amass such overwhelming power on easy.