Kaiser Willhelm won

[Stefan the Berserker]

http://www.politik-forum.at/files/europe2.gif

Whatch that Map, this reflects how Europe should have changed after the Ideas of the german Gouverment in 1914. Give me your impressions about that "alternative Ending". How do you think our future today might change, or would you even say this End would have been better?

[Sjakihata]

I want Denmark to be annexed by germany as well

[DemonArchangel]

Not a bad idea.

[lonewolf371]

Possibly, but most likely it would just ignite another war later on because the Allied powers (especially France) would not tolerate a loss of territory, money, or prestige for a substantial length of time.

[mercian billman]

Well WW2 would not have happened...at least Hitler would have never risen to power.

The US might not have become a major super power.

Military/political tensions would probably remain high in Europe for a long time.

By that I mean Europe might be in a state of war or preparing for the next war, sort of a cold scenario.

[Stefan the Berserker]

I'll post the exact plans what should change, sorted after Countries. I learned about the these through a good friend of mine.

Germany:

- annexion Belgium (Rich Economy, easy way into France)
- annexion of the French City Briey (Iron Source)
- establish Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus and Latvia as Satellite States with German/Austrian occupation (Shield-function against the USSR)
- Colonial annexion of Kongo, South Africa, India, Australia, New Zealand, Morocco, Indochina and Palestine

UK:

- Collapse of the British Empire and the UK itself
- Forming of the States Ireland, Wales, Scotland and England
- England should be allowed to keep the lesser important Colonies (Rodesia for example)
- Former UK-States are forbidden to rebuild Britain via Union

Austria-Hungary:

- annexion of Romania, Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro and Serbia
- release Galicia and Lodomeria to the polish Satellite
- Colonial annexion of Egypt and undefined further (they had interesst on Hong Kong)

France:

- Loss of Briey
- Release all Colonies to the Central Powers
- Payment of Reputation to Germany until 1950
- Low Size of Army
- German Occupation of the Capital Cities and industrial Areas

USA:

- Recieve Canada in reward for Peace

Turkey:

- Remain Controll of Iraq and Syria
- Eventually recieve Arabia and Lybia

Russia/USSR:

- losse all foreign Territory

Japan:

- Recieve Entente's Colonies in China, Burma and Malaya in reward for Peace

Italy:

- No annexion of Territory in reward for Peace

[Red Peasant]

Yet another disappointed German living out some Reichian fantasy.

Dream on brother. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Rufus]

No Georgia in the USSR = No Stalin, right? so no genocidal purges.

Would communism have collapsed early in a truncated USSR? Hmmm.

Perhaps the US and USSR would've been closer in the '20s and '30s as a bulwark against Germany and Japan. Japan would be even stronger in the Pacific rim. You could argue either they would've been even more emboldened to attack the U.S., or they wouldn't have attacked because the oil embargo "rationale" would be irrelevant. The former seems more likely.

Germany and Japan would've settled into an Axis type of alliance again to offset the U.S. and USSR. Japan still attacks Pearl Harbor. That would've likely started WW2 rather than a German action. US and USSR declare war on Japan, Japan and Germany do likewise. WW2 still happens, but perhaps with less action on the Western European front and more on the Eastern and in the Pacific.

Why would the US get Canada though? Canada was already independent.

[DemonArchangel]

Communism would be different because Trotsky, who wasn't as insane would have taken over.

[thrashaholic]

The entire thing whereby the empires of both France AND Britain collapse is absolute fantasy, it would never have happened in a million years, just like Britain would never have divided back down into it's four kingdoms, sheer nonsense. I'd also suspect that most of these supposedly annexed countries wouldn't care for it much and would have put up a major resistance (Australia, New Zealand, India and Canada for example), and after such a war as WW1 Austria with it's utterly crap military anyway wouldn't have been able to hold onto any of its new-found territory, and I seriously doubt Germany, considering the massive losses and the resistance of ex-colonies, wouldn't have been able to either, I mean Britain struggled with it Germany would've had no chance.

Another thing I don't get is why you wouldn't want Rhodesia? It's full of diamonds, that's why we colonised it the first place, far more wealth came our of Rhodesia than Australia...

Also, IIRC, didn't Japan fight on the side of the Allies against Germany in Asia?

I find all of your predictions for the alternative outcomes very dubious, I very much doubt that Germany could've won at all what with naval blockades and all, IIRC Germany only had a couple of weeks of food left and there were civilians starving left, right and centre.


Now what would be interesting is to see what would've happened if Britain had stuck to Royal allegiances and sided with Germany against France, our natural historical enemy...?

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]Yet another disappointed German living out some Reichian fantasy.

Dream on brother.

Yet another disapponited Englishman showing his Arrogance.

Wake up Brother, the British Empire is down

In Case France and Britain were occupied by the Central Powers, which kind of resistance against this threatment do you intend? Asking victorious Imperialists for Mercy??? https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif

1: Japan was a Member of the Entente and attacked the german Colonies Bismarck-Archipel and Tsingtao. For Peace they should have recived British and French Colonies of lesser worth, with Germany controlling India it is much more realistic that they would rather become Enemys of Germany a second time. Through the Wargoals of Japan in WW2 are now German Colonies and not Allied Ground.

2: Why should annexed Colonies resist, in favor of staying British or French? The german Colonies didn't resist against the British and French takeovers, through they simply couldn't. The only Resistance I would expect had been coming from Nationalist movements claiming their Freedom, but these wouldn't stand a real chance against the Army and Navy of two Nations having no more Foes.

3: Even through National Movements inside the Austro-Hungarian Empire, nobody expected it's collapse. If Britain was splitted, do you really think the Scots and the Welsh would sacrifice their new republican States to join the Kingdom of England? I think we needn't talk about Ireland.

4: This would have happened if the Central Powers had been victorious in such a Manner that they could dictate the conditions for Peace in the Way the Entente did it in Versailles, incase of a "Minor Victroy", if i can call it that way, (for example if France had been defeated and Britain was willing to sign a Peacethreaty) the Result wouldn't have been so hard. The Plan here was the "Siegfrieden", the Programme if the Entente had suffered a total defeat.

5: Russia was claimed to loose all foreign territory, anything Non-Russian in the Tzar's Empire should be released. This includes also Georgia, Kazachstan and Mongolia.

6: Austria-Hungary much stronger than many people think, belive me that the occupied Nations on Balkan would stay occupied. They had 415.000 Men under Arms in Peace and about than 3.500.000 during WW1, strong enough to occupie these Nations and integrate them into the Empire.

[lonewolf371]

I still think the Germans would have wars running back up their butts in seconds if they made that kind of peace treaty. No major in nation in Europe would tolerate such a loss of power considering the times. In reality, it would be much like WW2, with all of the defeated nations breaking the treaties within decades and relaunching yet another war, much more massive and much more destructive than the first.

Of course obviously we can't predict what would happen in a second world war. If Germany won, probably something similar to the end of World War 2, with the defeated countries being finally subjegated and stripped of their power.

If the Allies won..... I don't even want to think about that, what they would do to Germany would probably be something to the equivalent of dividing it back down to the tiny states of the Holy Roman Empire, or permant annexation by the different Allied countries. That would probably be the worse-case scenario.

But it does look interesting. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[thrashaholic]

Quote[/b] ]In Case France and Britain were occupied by the Central Powers, which kind of resistance against this threatment do you intend? Asking victorious Imperialists for Mercy???

First of all, Germany could never have managed to cross the Channel and would never have managed to occupy Britain; no-one had managed it for nearly 900 years, and to be honest, Napoleon was a far greater threat with regards to actually invading Britain's shores: He actually owned the Channel ports, which Germany didn't manage in WW1, and even if they did, the British Navy was strong enough to stop a landing.


Quote[/b] ]2: Why should annexed Colonies resist, in favor of staying British or French? The german Colonies didn't resist against the British and French takeovers, through they simply couldn't. The only Resistance I would expect had been coming from Nationalist movements claiming their Freedom, but these wouldn't stand a real chance against the Army and Navy of two Nations having no more Foes.

I can't speak for the French Empire because my knowledge is very limited, but the British Empire would've resisted because most of their populations were still incredibly loyal to the British Crown and were wealthy enough nations to function without Britain. You must remember that Britain's empire was very different to Germany's: both France and Britain's Empire's were vast, especially compared to Germany's meager colonial holdings. If Britain had been lost parliament, the Royal family and all the armed forces would've just moved to India or Canada, and the Empire and the war effort would've continued, after all that's what Britain was planning to do in WW2. You must realise that at the time of WW1 it was still British people who controlled all the colonies and nationalist feeling was low, all of the colonies had contributed vast numbers to the Allied efforts in Europe, and would've continued against Germany without Britain itself. If you think about the terrain in Canada, or the population in India still loyal to Britain, and the massive distances to the loyal countries of Australia and New Zealand, Germany could never have kept it in check.


Quote[/b] ] 3: Even through National Movements inside the Austro-Hungarian Empire, nobody expected it's collapse. If Britain was splitted, do you really think the Scots and the Welsh would sacrifice their new republican States to join the Kingdom of England? I think we needn't talk about Ireland.


I once again point to it being unlikely that Germany could've crossed the Channel and conquered Britain. You also clearly don't understand the national demographics of Britain, especially at the time of World War One. Ireland wouldn't have simply separated from Britain, it's only the South that was nationalistic, hence Northern Ireland still being British today. Scotland and England are joined by royal lineage, and the nationalist movement wasn't as strong at the time. Wales had been considered part of England since it had been conquered, there was very little nationalist movement except in the extreme North. Scotland Wales and England were all considered as one nation at the time, it was not like Austro-Hungary where you had numerous races who all spoke different languages who were mostly all poor except the Austrians, Britain had been one nation for centuries and was far more integrated between all the nations (with the exception of Ireland). Britain has only recently been considered a union of several nations, at the time it WAS one nation. The people of Scotland and Wales probably wouldn't have been too happy with the separations either.


I am still very doubtful that this 'alternate history' could have ever materialised. But once again I put forward the question: "what would've happened had Britain and Germany stuck to their royal loyalties and allied against France?"

[Sjakihata]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 24 2004,16:34)]"what would've happened had Britain and Germany stuck to their royal loyalties and allied against France?"
France would have kicked their arses and emerge as the new super-power

[Stefan the Berserker]

Zitat[/b] ]First of all, Germany could never have managed to cross the Channel and would never have managed to occupy Britain; no-one had managed it for nearly 900 years, and to be honest, Napoleon was a far greater threat with regards to actually invading Britain's shores: He actually owned the Channel ports, which Germany didn't manage in WW1, and even if they did, the British Navy was strong enough to stop a landing.

Britain survived many of these Cases through Britains Enemys always made the mistake to start a new War on the Continent, in all three Cases from Napoleon to WW2 this was Russia. Your Opinion looks like you belive in a British equivalent to the Kamikaze, but the Japanese also wondered in 1945 that the Kami didn't blow up the Hiroshima-Bomber.

A short Scenario how the Central Powers could have won:

- the Schlieffenplan was succsessful and France collapses
- Italy joins the central Powers in 1915 (instead of the Entente)
- Turkey joins the Central Powers in 1915
- USA remain neutral
- Russia is defeated by the Conditions of the Brest-Litowsk threaty
- Britain and Japan remain as the major Oponents
- Britain is invaded or surrenders

In Case of a Victory Imperialists always use the Philosophy of the Gauls: "The natural advantage of the stronger Men is to rule over the lesser ones.". The Rule of the Gun can create and destroy Nations, it is just hard to accept that this also affects the own Homeland.

[gaelic cowboy]

Quote[/b] (thrashaholic @ July 22 2004,05:31)]The entire thing whereby the empires of both France AND Britain collapse is absolute fantasy, it would never have happened in a million years, just like Britain would never have divided back down into it's four kingdoms, sheer nonsense.
But Britain did collapse after didn't it how else could a crowd of farmers publicans and whatnot show Brittania the door in Ireland less than 5 years later.