The 4th ally

[Hetman]

It is interesting how often armies which fought in the Second World War, but different than American, Soviet or British are underestimated.

For example. It's hard to find that the 4th largest and most important allied army in europe was the polish army.
Yes, yes it was larger and more important than the french or any other.

Why ?

This army fought from September 1939 ( Poland) to May 1945 ( Berlin).
In Norway ( Narvik 1940), France 1940, during the Battle for Britain, in North Africa ( Tobruk, and 'Crusader'), in Normady ( Falaise), Belgium, Holland ( Arnhem), Germany ( Berlin, southern and northern Germany from east and west, in Italy ( Monte Cassino, northern Italy) and of course in Poland ( 1939 borders)- the pro-western resistance and polish troops under Soviet command.
In addition polish navy fought in most of important naval operations - except 'the Torch' and polish air force bombarded Germany and was defending Britain also against V1s.

Major achievements

The aerial Battle of Britain (151 polish pilots - shot down 203 german aircrafts, losing 33 pilots far more efficient than any others, and they joined the battle after several months - were judged too unexperienced - they, veterans, even aces ).

Breaking the Enigma code - priceless, without polish help the British code-breakers would most likely never achieve so much.

Intelligence reports about Peenemunde V weapons ( the allies decided to bombard this after some time), even whole stolen rockets
These were transported to Britain from resistance Home Army landings in Poland.

Falaise - polish armoured division was the only allied unit which was blocking german retreat ( thanks to American-British animosity).

Resistance movement in occupied Poland (includes present Ukraine, Belorussia and Lithuania) - about 600 000 soldiers, about 1 million members ( even in Auschwitz), which was fighting both German and Soviet occupation ( figting stopped in 1947). Important actions e.g. Warsaw uprising 1944, liberation of several cities including Vilnus, Lviv and Lublin.

First reports about the Holocaust in 1942 - the Americans didn't believe or didn't ant to believe, unfortunatelly.

First magnetic mine sweeping equipment which was used by Montgomery troops in Africa for the first time. It was copied by the Americans and the Soviets.

For this they've got Yalta, 'Poles go home' graffiti (first in 1943 )
and finally were denied joining in the Victory Parades to 1993, if I remember correctly, because this could enrage Stalin - even Fiji army could.

Other countries are also often underestimated.

Norway.

Very big merchant fleet ( many tankers) which really helped England.

Resistance action in Norse Hydro which delayed german A-bomb project.
Imagine Adolf using nukes...

Yugoslavia

Very strong resistance army which required large amount of troops, which could be deployed somewhere else.

Please add more.

Regards Hetman https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-jester.gif

[Rosacrux]

Greece.

Got attacked by the Italians, and drove them all the way back along the Dalmatian coasts. Then Germany entered the war to aid the faltering Italians, and tied about 20 divisions to finish the job (Yugoslavia fell in a matter of days, Greece lasted just a few days longer though). The battle of Crete, especially, has absorbed (and half-way destroyed) the creme de la creme of the German army, the paras. According to several historians, the offensive at Greece and especially the resistance the Nazis met at Crete, delayed "Barbarossa" just long enough so the Germans didn't manage to get to Moscow before winter.

Occupation of Greece was a nightmare for the Germans, who devoted many troops to guard the country, since Greece was one of the three more active (the other were USSR and Yugoslavia - specifically the Serbian part of it as many Croats worked alongside the Germans with their notorious Ustaca group) countries regarding resistance against the Nazis. The country paid a humangous death toll because of this (dozens of villages burned dowh and their inhabitants shot).

Also, the Greek forces that fled the country, formed the modern "Sacred Band", that cooperated with SAS in Africa for the duration of the operations on that front, and Greek naval forces were used throughout the war in various duties (the bulk of the Greek navy escaped Greece). More than 60 Greek pilots flew RAF airplanes throughout the war, and several of them got decorations and high honors for becoming Ace pilots and bringing down numerous Axis pilots.

Also, Greek detachments took part in many battles, especially in Africa and even in D-Day.

And Greece was a smallish country with less than 7 million population at the time.

[PanzerJaeger]

Hehe, the grecian campaign is a perfect illistration of the fighting prowess of the German army...

Italy invaded in what should have been an easy annexation if you look at the numbers. The brave grecians countered the invasion and gave the italians a good whipping... then the germans came in and it was all over in a few days. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Rosacrux]

Well, if you consider that Yugoslavia fell to ze Germans in 3 days, without even a major battle, and that it took them only a few days more to get Poland (6 times the size and population of Greece and with an half-advanced army, instead of the first WW leftover that was the Greek army) and that in a matter of a couple of months Germany has gotten almost the whole European portion of USSR... well, we stood up quite well https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Leo]

Quote[/b] (Rosacrux @ July 23 2004,13:53)]Well, if you consider that Yugoslavia fell to ze Germans in 3 days, without even a major battle, and that it took them only a few days more to get Poland
A few days more? More like a few weeks. Hetman, please tell him.

[PanzerJaeger]

Quote[/b] ]"...in general the bravery and heroism of the Polish Army merits great respect."

Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (PanzerJager @ Juli 23 2004,10:34)]
Citera[/b] ]"...in general the bravery and heroism of the Polish Army merits great respect."

Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt


To be picky, that doesn't says anything about how good the troops are in combat. Lousy generals or poor equipment can still give very weak results.

[The_Emperor]

it is a shame that the attention has been focused on the 'big three' Allies in WW2.

Even under occupation there was resistance which drained and diverted fighting men from the frontlines. It was a collective effort to defeat Hitler and the other nations (such as Greece & Poland) need to be given credit for their accomplishments.

[PanzerJaeger]

Quote[/b] ]Citera (PanzerJager @ Juli 23 2004,10:34)
Citera
"...in general the bravery and heroism of the Polish Army merits great respect."

Generalfeldmarschall Gerd von Rundstedt




To be picky, that doesn't says anything about how good the troops are in combat. Lousy generals or poor equipment can still give very weak results.


Well i was just posting that to show that, although poland was easily defeated, the bravery of her soldiers was even recognized in the top ranks of the German command.

[Hetman]

Well... it was attacked from all sides by 3-4 times bigger forces...

[Ironside]

Citera[/b] (Hetman @ Juli 24 2004,03:59)]Well... it was attacked from all sides by 3-4 times bigger forces...
See, lousy equipment= not enough troops and not good enough equipment. And poor generalship = not fortified enough. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

That most countries had that problem in the beginning of WW2 has nothing to do with it. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[lonewolf371]

The Polish Army was rather backwards by WW2...

They still had the best cavalry in the world, but by this point in time cavalry generally didn't make much of a difference on who won a war. The simple fact that Poland had a backwards army made them have no chance against the Russians or Germans.

But I do believe that they held out longer than the French, heck even the Belgians almost held out as long as the French. Yea sure, so what if the Wehrmacht was the most-advanced best-equipped most-efficient army since the Mongols and Romans, but they could have at least held out a few more days.......

French resistance afterwards helped a lot though, they did more for the cause than the army

[Hetman]

Quote[/b] (lonewolf371 @ July 24 2004,04:42)]The Polish Army was rather backwards by WW2...

They still had the best cavalry in the world, but by this point in time cavalry general didn't make much of a difference on who won a war. The simple fact that Poland had a backwards army made them have no chance against the Russians or Germans.

But I do believe that they held out longer than the French, heck even the Belgians almost held out as long as the French. Yea sure, so what if the Wehrmacht was the most-advanced best-equipped most-efficient army since the Mongols and Romans, but they could have at least held out a few more days.......

French resistance afterwards helped a lot though, they did more for the cause than the army
France wasn't alone + they had bigger army than the Germans + were assaulted from one direction.
And Poland - nowhere to hide, nowhere to run. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif

[Hetman]

I will add something about war in Poland in 1939.

"You may be suprised but on the 17th September 1939 when the Soviets invaded about 40% of Polish army was still fighting ( INCLUDING 50 % OF AIRCRAFTS). The government was still in Poland, and Warsaw capitulated on 28th September i.e. 11 DAYS LATER - NOT AFTER FEW DAYS, but was defending for 20 days first german tanks reached it.
Of course when the Red Army invaded Poland ( about 1 000 000 soldiers with 3000 tanks and 1000 aircrafts) Polish army couldn't use more than 10 000 of Border Guards ( so called KOP - veterans of 'small war' vs Soviets which had lasted since 1921), teenagers, and small numbers of proffessional soldiers, but still it they lost some soldiers ( about 100 tanks - demaged mostly, 1000 dead and 2000 wounded + 10 or more aircrafts) - Grodno was fighting for three days for example.
And the Germans were fighting Polish regular troops to 5th October, even garrison in Hel peninsula was defending to 2nd October i.e. it was
next to Baltic - 80 kilometers from Danzig
It is really possible that without Russian help the war in Poland could
last to November/December 1939 unless our western 'allies' would start fighting Germans at last." - this if from one of my earlier posts in the Monastery.

Initial forces
German + Russian forces in September 1939 - about 6000 of tanks, 3000 planes, 3 million soldiers, 5 U-boots ( 250 tonnes), several destroyers
2 small battleships and several smaller units.
In addition 3 Slovak infantry divisions were used during the campaign.

Polish army - 900 000 soldiers ( mobilised on 1st Sept.) + maybe 300 000 more joined the army ( replacement, additional units, volunteers),
800 tanks ( mostly as good as most of german panzers) and 400 airplanes
+ navy - 1 destroyer ( 'Wicher'), 1 big mine ship ( 'Gryf'), 5 submarines and 10 smaller units - 3 destroyers were send to Britain to fight there.

The campaign lasted to the 7th October ( official German date) when the last 2 infantry and 1 cavalry divisions capitulated at Kock.

Losses - Poles about 200 000 soldiers killed and wounded, 300 planes ( 90 flew to Romania and were used vs Soviets in 1941-43 even at Stalingrad, 10 to Hungary or elsewhere), almost all tanks ( small number was used by Germany in France and later), all ships except
all submarines ( 3 spent war in Sweden, 2 reached Britain - 'Orzel' and 'Wilk') and one t-boat which escaped to Sweden.

Germans - about 60 000 soldiers killed or wounded, 1000 tanks ( 300 completly), 280 planes ( 90 in crashes the rest shot down), 1 small ship sunk (mines) and several demaged ( both battleships - lost duels vs. 1 cannon battery from Hel and 1-2 destroyers during artillery duels with the both biggest warships).
Note - Luftwaffe used 50 % of all bombs supply for the whole war during this 'easy' war.

Russians - as mentioned earlier.

Generally Poland wasn't so easy to defeat, especially during the battle at Bzura when german recon didn't notice 150 000 Polish troopers - two whole armies. The polish forces attacked exposed flank of the 8th German army and whole Luftwaffe and most of armoured divisions were send to vanquish both armies.
Poland couldn't win but was never supposed to fight ALONE and especially against BOTH Soviet Union and Germany at the same time, especially when our allies did nothing.

Several times it was possible to cause far bigger losses, but at least most of polish units fought until it was useless to fight anymore, i.e not like french.

Some German blunders during the campaign - Westerplatte - 1 larger company (about 200 soldiers) was able to defend vs 3000 of german Danzig SS with strong support FOR 7 DAYS losing 18 men And it was in DANZIG actually.
Mokra - 1 cavalry brigade ( 'Volhynia' brigade - Wolynska) stopped 2 panzer divisions ( XVIth corps) for 2 days ( 1-2 September) inflicting heavy losses, although suffering also high casualities.
Mlawa - SS units decided to charge across... mine field.
All coastal battles - for 19 days Wehrmacht wasn't able to take polish positions only several ( no more than 20) kilometers from Danzig.
Kriegsmarine failed to destroy even one polish submarine, even though it was its priority, and the ships were rather large.
Luftwaffe didn't destroy all naval airplanes, so when taking of Westerplatte was celebrated the last one polish navy plane bombarded the place the celebration took place.
Second - polish airforce wasn't destroyed on the ground as planned, and polish armoured trains proved dangerous ( several times) because Luftwaffe couldn't find them.

Basic facts, I can add more if asked.

GREECE

When Germany invaded most of greek army was fighting Italian army
( armies EPIRUS, Western Macedonia and part of Middle Macedonia), 1 army was defending along Mataxas line ( e.g. in front of Bulgarian border - Eastern Macedonia), indeed most of forces which could be used vs. german army consisted of the British corps. When the British decided to use their favourite tactic at that time (i.e. board the ships ) the whole greek army was cut off and it was over...


ROSACRUX

I was suprised You don't know the basic facts about the war in Poland.

Anyway ask me if you need more to know.

regards Hetman https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Rosacrux]

Leo & Hetman

Ho, hold your horses lads Of course I know all about the Polish campaign, it was just a figure of speech

Poland was a large country and had army to fight, it was not possible to overun it in "a matter of days", no matter how good - and fast - the oponnent was (and it - Germany - was darn good, one of the 3 or 4 better miliatry systems the world has ever seen) and how outnumbered and outclassed the Polish army was.

But the Poles have put up an extremely brave fight against all odds, having Germans and Soviets on their throat, and it's only a shame that the French & English, allthough in a position to break the western german border at the time, or at least aid Poland in some way, did just stood idle and let Poland get the sack.

Of course they could've prevented it all much sooner https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Inuyasha12]

Alright enough about poland what about other countries, like spain, portugal,australia, etec..

[lonewolf371]

I think the only one of those that was truly active in WW2 was Australia.

...Assuming any of the others were even diplomatically involved in the conflict...

[Rosacrux]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ July 24 2004,11:43)]
Quote[/b] (lonewolf371 @ July 24 2004,04:42)]The Polish Army was rather backwards by WW2...

They still had the best cavalry in the world, but by this point in time cavalry general didn't make much of a difference on who won a war. The simple fact that Poland had a backwards army made them have no chance against the Russians or Germans.

But I do believe that they held out longer than the French, heck even the Belgians almost held out as long as the French. Yea sure, so what if the Wehrmacht was the most-advanced best-equipped most-efficient army since the Mongols and Romans, but they could have at least held out a few more days.......

French resistance afterwards helped a lot though, they did more for the cause than the army
France wasn't alone + they had bigger army than the Germans + were assaulted from one direction.
And Poland - nowhere to hide, nowhere to run. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/bigthumb.gif
There is quite an issue regarding the French army and its resistance against the Nazi invasion. And there some facts most people tend to overlook.

The average French soldier was as good and brave as anyone else. It wasn't the poor performance of the soldiers that doomed the French fight, it was the completely outdated battle plan, the poor dogma and the unbalanced development of the French armed forces, that led to the rapid destruction of the French forces, along with the BEF.

- The French dogma underestimated the value of air support, and held it as secondary weapon - huuuuge mistake.

- The French dogma valued static defense, at a point of time when movement warfare was reinvented by the Germans and put to use in Poland. Of course they couldn't reinvent their defensive dogma in a matter of weaks, but the lack of mechanized divisions speaks volumes, as do the static defences a-la Maginot.

- The French dogma concerning the use of tanks valued the use of them as supportive to the infantry units. That meant, the French didn't deploy their tanks in armoured divisions, but as organic supplements of regular divisions. The German mechanized divisions made short work of them.

Of course, France was a huge school for... the Brits They saw how the German dogma (Bewegunskrieg - movement warfare) worked in action, they saw the German weapons, they learned why the divisions of the BEF were destroyed with such an ease (and only Hitler's reluctancy to deliver the decisive blow saved them from total annihilation) and they not only learned themselves how to fight the Germans, but also provided the Americans with this know-how.

The French were not alone, I am trying to say. Everybody in Europe was fighting that way - save the Germans. In 1939 the German warfare model was completely unmatched by anything anyone else could pitch against them. And it remained so for two more years. Their first real challenge was the overextension they suffered, trying to cover a 4.000 mile eastern front, against an enemy who'd rather die that surrender. That's where the countdown for the Nazis started.

[lonewolf371]

Hmm, interesting...

[Hetman]

And what about Czech republic - czech pilot was probably the best ace of the Battle of Britain ( allied side). https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif