The challenge of the French GA-goals...

[PseRamesses]

I love playing the French, don´t you? Now, I´m a GA-goal player so this is focused on making all the GA-goals set for the French. I just feel that CA made a huge mistake by not letting the French get GA points for some of the lands held by the English and the German.
First of all there is a matter of homeland-points. Before 1125 (first count for this goal) you get one point each for Edessa, Antioch, Tripoli and Palestine. After 1125 Edessa is changed to three points etc. Secondly the Krak and Notre Dame is usually not a problem. Thirdly Cyprus comes in to the GA-rooster around ???, when?

Here´s my challenge:
Play an early game on expert level with no cheats or -ian commands between 1087-1250AD.
* 1st goal is to "unify" France which means getting Normandy, Anjou and Aquitaine from the English and Lorraine, Burgundy and Provence from the Germans as fast as you can but atleast before the GA-count in 1100AD. I´ll award 6 GA-points for this accomplishment.
* 2nd goal is to take "the holy land" and its four GA-provinces as fast as you can but but atleast before the first GA-count for this objective in 1125AD.
* 3rd goal is meeting all the other GA-goals until the end of this challenge in 1250AD.

The first goal is hard but not impossible. I´ve manage to secure all theese six provinces at 1193AD. The second goal is a real killer. IMO I find it darn impossible to hold the crusade provinces BEFORE 1125 Maybee blitz-guys like Katank or someone has a strategy for this?

I´ll post screens of my progress this weekend. Have fun

[katank]

all 4 crusader states by 1125? that sounds a bit insane but fun.

we have to crusade to each?

I'm not that sure if a ship network can be setup so fast.

BTW, no restricts on other conquests, right?

I should be free to conquer say Syria to consolidate my position?

[Kristaps]

All crusader states by 1125: that is a bit insane... One starts in 1088 and needs to go from a fort in Ile de France to a keep (at least) (6 years) + a church (4 years) + a chapter house (4 years) + a crusade marker (4 years); that's wihout building anything else. This building sequence would put one in 1107 to start the first crusade. By 1107 it would be impossible to develop a shipping network stretching to the holy land (unless one rushed into Venice from the very beginning). Thus, the crusade would have to take the land route (meaning - another 10 or so years to get to the target provinces), putting us into 1117. respectively, forget about extra crusades: the first one has to take it all... taking 4 provinces in 8 years with an army composed mostly of peasants/hobilars and urban militia (remember, you cannot build anything else besides the chapter house line in Ile de France and the other provinces around it have no buildings to start with) and keeping them given, that the Byzantines might be breathing down your neck (egyptians will still have mostly peasant armies by this time so they won't be much of a problem) sounds a bit unrealistic to me... especially, since in all of those provinces one has to storm forts/keeps. so, i say, 'naaa' :)

[katank]

do we have to crusade for all 4 states or just send a single crusade.

I agree with the assessment of unless grabbing Venice, you have little chance.

adriatic, ionian, mirtoon, crete, and nile makes for 5 sea zones which is 15 years of building and so it's quite doable as you can capture the shipyard intact although now you have the English, Germans, and Italians hating your guts and the Aragonese or Spanish breathing down your neck waiting for strike opportunity.

[Sociopsychoactive]

I agree, 1125 is to hard, maybe you could have one ( usually go for palastine or tripoli first) and then, within 20 years you could take the others if you didn't crusade to them all, but that loses you lots of GA points, and don;t forget that the moment you have tripoli you want to sart up towards that citadel, and are usually limited to peasents and UM from there if you want to make it by 1200.

I am currently playing a french GA game and have ust hit 1210, three of the four crusader states are mine, the other beuing italian but I still earnt the points as we got there first, both crusades having set off at roughly the same time.

My Krak is built, as is he notre dame cathedral, most of the other arab lands are mine save two or three each for the urks and eggy's, the byzants having been pushed back to constantinople and lands the other side of it.

Cyprus becomes a GA homeland at around 1175, maybe 1150 I think, but I don;t have it myself, instead I grabbed one of the other lslands when it rebelled and donl;t want to piss off the byzants.

Other than that I have expanded greatly and own all of germany, most of the UK, all of denark and further orth, most of the steppe and even some of italy, hungry and poland.

So, for GA points I am doing very well, but mostly they were attained for succesfull crusades, the krak, the cathedral and conquest, NOT for homelands.

[econ21]

I don't see how you can have 4 successful crusades by 1125. They have to walk there, which itself takes time. In the French PBM GA ongoing right now, I only managed one. Holding it was tough too, with both the Turks and Egyptians trying to rest it from me.

If anyone would like to join in the PBM, sign up here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....1;st=50 (https://forums.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=20171;st=50)

Write-ups so far are here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/cgi-bin....=20212T (https://forums.totalwar.org/cgi-bin/forum/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=25;t=20212T)

French GAs in early are about the most fun and challenging in the game - I wish all factions/eras had something equivalent.

[katank]

I think he means only walking one over and sacking the rest with troops.

just booted up a game and played to 1097. I've managed to conquer wessex in addition to the Platagenet claims as well as taking the line of 4 German provnces to the east of me.

I have more than 16k in the bank and are allied with the Brits and the Germans

screenie as soon as the file comes up on the filespace.

[PseRamesses]

I can see from your reactions that you can do the math well ;)
What I meant is that it´s impossible to meet the GA goal of taking the four crusader provs by 1125 so why did they put it in there the first time?

This is what I think should be the challenge:
*1. Take the thre Eng provs plus the three Ger provs as mentioned before. (Which is the uber blitz king? I can do it easily to 1093 but usually I wait one turn in the beginning to build the 5 star UM. If you don´t you can get all 6 provs by 1092 but that´s the fastest I´ve ever done it.)
*2. Crusade all four "crusade provs" to get the double points. Who can do it in the shortest amount of time??? By land or by sea or a combo of both? (I´ve done it until 1132AD but I think it can be perfected more.)
*3. All other GA-goals must be met. The game ends in 1250 when N.D is built.
*4. As always no other conquest at all If it´s not in the GA-rooster, except for the initial 6 provs mentioned above, don´t touch it You may counter attack, sack a prov for an enemy but you may not hold it.

The first goal is a tie since I can´t figure out how to take them all before 1092. The second goal is by far the most challenging. Exposing all four provs in the holy land from attacks from all fronts is also a true challenge. Save screens on the above goals and post them in this thread. Just edit them together to save space. Good hunting fellas

[katank]

why can't we sack wessex? I was able to garner a beaytiful ransom from that.

[katank]

I was thinking that perhaps the best way is to bribe khazar and fight your way to Syria then build to crusades there?

the problem is that the Byz emperor parked his jedi butt in Georgia and I was mostly screwed.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (katank @ July 22 2004,12:26)]I was thinking that perhaps the best way is to bribe khazar and fight your way to Syria then build to crusades there?

the problem is that the Byz emperor parked his jedi butt in Georgia and I was mostly screwed.
bribing into khazar on expert? hehe, you have only 4000 florins in your bank to start with... another factor: building up for crusades in syria will take quite some time too... and due to the low christian zeal in the province raw as it comes from the muslims you won't get any troops either...

as to why the crusader goals are there? i thouhgt those have to be accomplished by 1200 not by 1125... crusading all 4 provinces by 1200 is a very realistic goal. i think, there is nothing in the game ga text that says one 'has' to have them by 1125 :))

[katank]

by 1150 is already an extremely comfortable margin but 1125? that's crazy talk unless something drastic

I do mean expert.

you have to be strategic and lucky.

I threw the Brits into a civil war and got 10k ransom for their king.

it's also easy to do the same to the HRE emperor.

Syria is for the strategic location of being able to hit all four provines in a single turn.

the crusades are for the GA points and not the troops. I know I might get only 1 guy but at least I got troops, hahaha.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 22 2004,12:43)]as to why the crusader goals are there? i thouhgt those have to be accomplished by 1200 not by 1125... crusading all 4 provinces by 1200 is a very realistic goal. i think, there is nothing in the game ga text that says one 'has' to have them by 1125 :))
Hey guys, you´re missing the point In the GA-rooster fronm the start you get 1 point each for Palestine, Tripoli (or was it Edessa?) and Antioch. In 1100 the last crusade prov is entered in the homeland list, right? By 1125 Edessas points are upped to 3 GA-homeland points.

The whole aim with this challenge is to get the four crusader provs WITH crusades as quickly as possible and THAT GA-goal is due in 1204AD. Now what I´m talking about is the homelandpoints you get for the four crusade provs from the start of the game - one point each, and in 1125 the homeland point for Edessa changes to 3 points. So in order to BOTH fulfill the GA-homeland goal AND the crusade GA-goal you actually have to crusade the dran things or you miss out on GA-points. Is my "english" clearer now? ;)

I tried out this challenge tonight and was able to secure the 3 Eng and 3 Ger provs by 1092AD. Attacked Eng in 1087, battle in Normandy and Anjou was surrendered to me. Aquitaine both put up a battle and a siege so I was done with the Eng provs by 1089.
Attacked all 3 Ger provs in 1090AD and Lorranie was surrendered while in both Burgundy and Provence I had to battle & siege. Done in 1092AD and HRE went into civil war, he he, Conrad came begging for peace.
First crusade launched in 1107 which is the fastest since I went directly for keep, church and chapter house. Took Edessa in 1116AD although i forgot to go through Venice and jump to Greece which will save me a year. A shiplink to the holy land was ready by 1123AD but had already launched a land crusade to Antioch which I took in 1126AD.

See the problem? No way you can get the homeland points for the holy land at 1125 and if you don´t want to miss out on the crusade GA-bonus points you have to crusade them.

@Katank,
It´s virtually impossible to put a leach on you isn´t it? Just kidding By no conquest I do mean every hostile takeover you can ever dream of, including bribing. The challenge with this "scenario" is not domination but rather the opposite. By the early expantion with adding 6 provs, launching crusades, building ships and securing the homelands in the holy land and over there play a defensive game is one of the hardest GA challenges I can think of. Not only do you have to with hold the onslaught from the Spaiards, HRE and Italians but you will also be exposed on all sides in the holy land.

I have finished all GA-goals for every faction in the game except for this one - getting both the homeland and the crusade GA-points for the holy land. Now, it may be possible to, theoretically, get them all by the 1125-count but that will take alot more startingmoney, a coastal crusade prov that will take the 2nd, 3rd and 4th crusade by ships while Paris will launch the first one by land aimed at Edessa, and that the Turks are eliminated by the Byzantines which you can safely pass though etc etc.

Would be great if someone made it

[katank]

in that case, I would say that with unmodded vanilla VI, it's impossible just mathematically do this if absolutely no conquests other than what you mentioned.

I must say that I got myself into an enviable position in the game I started with quite a bit of money as well as having the beat up Brits and Germans as allies

[Sociopsychoactive]

But there is another way

You crusade to a province, any of the four, but with a HUGE army, and with that army take the other three crusade provinces before 1125. then, all you have to do is lose them to a none-catholic nation, any one it does;t matter, and r-take them BY CRUSADE before 1150, or even do them one at a time, as long as you crusade to them before the crusade limit, 1201 if I remember rightly.

It is possible this way, and by losing them inbetween the years counted for homelands and conquest you don;t lose any points, and still get FULL points for crusading to them

I may well try this out myself tommorow.

[Kristaps]

Well, who say's that one has to full-fill all the GA goals by the first count? I don't think, the Creative Assembly designed it with this in mind :) Play whatever you play: the human will win in the end :) be it a GA game or TD. :)



https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[PseRamesses]

I think you´re right Katank and Sociopsychoactive actually has a point. It might be done that way. Launch a huge crusade by land taking out Edessa and letting the remainding army mop up the other three before 1125AD - absolutely brilliant

So let´s change the rules a bit:
*1. "Unify" France by taking the mentioned Eng and Ger holdings. Do it by 1092 and you´ll get 6 extra GA-points. By 1093 and you´ll get 3 extra points (on top of the GA-count).
*2. Fulfill all GA-goals up until 1250AD. (
*3. No other conquest of any kind and that includes no bribing. Inheritance is ok though so keep thoose diplomats busy. One exeption though, your initial Crusade-army may take the remainding three provs in the holy land getting the homeland points for them before 1125.

Join in and share the experience. Let me know if you made it.

[Kristaps]

Another point: really, not all GA goals make sense. Take the Jihad goals for muslims as an example... If I am an Egyptian ruler, I own 3 of the Jihad provinces... Thus, to full-fill the goal, I have to lose the provinces (my homelands) to someone and then retake them by Jihad... Doesn't make much sense to me... Take Almos: they need to take the Jihad provinces from anyone who owns them; then lose them; then retake by Jihad... Makes even less sense to me... :)

As to a huge Crusade I army taking all 4 provinces; then losing them; then re-crusading for them: be careful :) As soon as the majority of the local population turns catholic (with a high influence leader and established ship routes this can happen fast; and you might get uninvited help in the form of foreign priests in conversion of the infidels) and you lose the province to rebels rather the muslims or orthodox christians, the Pople will stop sanctioning crusades to it...

[lonewolf371]

That's part of what makes it hard...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 23 2004,03:23)]As to a huge Crusade I army taking all 4 provinces; then losing them; then re-crusading for them: be careful :) As soon as the majority of the local population turns catholic (with a high influence leader and established ship routes this can happen fast; and you might get uninvited help in the form of foreign priests in conversion of the infidels) and you lose the province to rebels rather the muslims or orthodox christians, the Pople will stop sanctioning crusades to it...
Yup, I´ve thought about this alot during work today and you´re right Kristaps. Back to the original idea:

*1. Unify France, blitz style.
*2. Strictly GA-game. No conquests.
*3. Take the holy land, blitz style.

Unify France is doable by 1092 since I´ve done it myself and it can´t be done any faster, period. I´ll award 6 additional GA-points for 1092, 3 for 1093 and 1 for 1094AD. After all it all depends on, weather the Germans are preoccupied on another front, how fast you manage to make it.
By a strict GA-game I mean simply this: if it´s not in the GA-rooster don´t do it If you inherit you just got lucky so keep the diplos busy. Don´t bribe, raid or anything. I think one exception is allowed: if you get attacked you may counter attack and sack their province, one for each attack. An eye for an eye.
The crusade/ homeland dilemma is easily solved by the awarded GA-points. You get 15 points (one time) by crusading and 4 (counted in 1125, 1150, 1175 etc) by holding the "homelands" in the middle east. The challenge here is, who will do it the fastest way? Can we agree upon that taking the four outreemer provinces by 1125AD is impossible? Then I would suggest the following; taking them by 1125 gets you an additional 30 GA-points, by 1130 20, 1135 10 and 1140 5.

Let´s play a game

[PseRamesses]

I think I´m gonna pull this off lads

Took NOR, ANJ and AQU by 1088Ad and LOR, BUR and PRO by 1091Ad which is the fastest one can do it since the Eng has a fort in AQU and the Ger in atleast BUR (in this case even in PRO). Got very lucky since I got the "papal handout" consecutively from 1087-1092Ad (5.000fl.) AND captured Conrad in the assault on BUR +10.252fl.
First crusade launched in 1107Ad which secured the first crusade-province by 1115Ad. A shipline to the holy land is established in 1117Ad. So I have 8 years to take the remainding three crusader-provinces. One of them is cut off from the rest so I know I will take that one in 2 years which leaves 6 years to conquer the remainding two. It´s burning under my feet guys. Woha, it was a long time since I felt this nervous.

Pics and a complete report will be posted before the weekend is over. Now, I´m going on a hot date, yummy

[Kristaps]

Hehe, had this funny battle today playing French. My crusaders had a good hold of Tripoli when two huge (5000 in total versus my 1200) armies attacked it: one from Siria (the Turks) and one from Palestine (the Eggos). I thought, my brave crusaders (mostly archers, hobilars and vanilla spearmen + militia) would be fried in no time...

To the amazement of my archers (8 units in total fielded), the AI allies clashed against each other at the base of my hill-top missile position... They were killing each other while the French archers were peppering both sides... The Eggos routed the Turks and were subsequently routed by hobilar charge, after their sultan, pierced by arrows, bit the Tripolian dust. The French lost a grand total of 2 spearmen in this battle...

I tried to autocalc the battle later from a save game: I lost miserably... :)

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 24 2004,17:30)]To the amazement of my archers (8 units in total fielded), the AI allies clashed against each other at the base of my hill-top missile position... They were killing each other while the French archers were peppering both sides... The Eggos routed the Turks and were subsequently routed by hobilar charge, after their sultan, pierced by arrows, bit the Tripolian dust. The French lost a grand total of 2 spearmen in this battle...
That must have been a sight to view and a relief, maybee, for you ;) It´s theese times that one wishes that one should have a standard procedure to record all battles that one play. Ohh, what great battles we have fought and it would have been great to view them, wouldn´t it?

[Servius]

the other option is to say that the GA Homelands are screwed up, since it's impossible to get them by the first count, and thus you should mod the homeland goals so that Outremer states don't appear as Homelands until a reasonable time.

Just curious, cause I don't know off the top of my head, but when were those four states taken, historically?

Were all four ever actually held at the same time? What year was that?

To meet the actual historical dates may require starting the game at an earlier date, or start much more advanced with larger armies. The starting buildings and units aren't accurate, just representative, anyway.

[Fragony]

Just launch the crusades from tripoli, you should have naval support by then.

[PseRamesses]

I made it I actually made it It is possible to take the Outremer provinces by the 1125 count. The first goal for the "challenge" was to take the 3 Eng and 3 Ger provs and we all agreed that it couldn´t be done before 1092Ad, which I did, unless you actually kill all enemies in a fort-guarded prov and thus don´t have to waste one year on a siege.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/PseR%20France%201092%20AD.jpg

The second goal, try to take all four Outremer provs with crusades before 1125Ad, turned out to be - not a challenge - but an obsession this weekend. Now, the first crusade can´t be launched before 1107Ad and since it´s near impossible to get a shipline up before 1117Ad you have to take it by land. You should be able to take the first around 1113-1116Ad, depending on how you can jump ports from Venice into yhe Byzantine Empire. I got lucky and jumped from Venice - Greece - Anatolia which saved me two years and Antioch was mine by 1114Ad. Tripoli fell by 1119, Palestine by 1122Ad and finally Edessa in 1124Ad thus clearing this illusive goal.

http://www.totalwar.org/patrons/story/PseR%20France%201124%20AD.jpg

Now I "lost" three years, one each in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th prov by getting invaded before I was able to finnish the sieges. Therefore I think that it´s theoretically feasable that you can actually take all four crusader-provs with crusades by 1121Ad if you´re extremely lucky I also lost three ships between 1111-1117Ad so I might have been able to take the 2nd prov one or two years earlier so maybee the optimal "world record" in capturing the Outreemer provs with a crusade is 1120Ad.
I also got lucky since I tried this game on expert but it´s undoable. I stepped down a knotch thus getting a bit more startingmoney. From 1087-1092 I got 5.000 fl. from the Pope and in 1092 I captured Conrad II in Burgundy gaining a much needed 10.252 fl. Otherwise I wouldn´t have made it on this level either.

Now, since this turned from a challenge to an obsession I really don´t think there´s a need for you to go through all the work I´ve done, if you don´t want to beat the inofficial world record in conquering the holy land, he he Let me know if you do and good luck

[Ar7]

Gongrats the new king of blitz https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Katank return your office title, just kidding https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/wave.gif https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/smokin.gif

[Kristaps]

Are you playing a modded game? Just curious what is that pink faction next to Provence :) and the Brown one next to Antioch.

As to somebody's question about the crusader provinces: all of those were controlled by Franks (crusaders) by 1100 AD.

[Kristaps]

Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 26 2004,10:43)]Tripoli fell by 1119, Palestine by 1122Ad and finally Edessa in 1124Ad thus clearing this illusive goal.
Well, how did you manage to get Edessa by crusade in 1124 AD, if Palestine fell in 1122. The Pope wouldn't let you launch another crusade until the Palestine one was done: so how would you get the marker from Ile de France into Edessa in 2 years?

[Sociopsychoactive]

Ships. The moment your crusade is targetted it can jump straight to the coastal crusader provinces, and only one turn delay in getting to the inland one.

Congrats on making it I'd also like to know if it;s a modded game cus if it is that might make a difference, at the moment I;m trying to get all the GA goals every time in a german early expert game, and the moment I went for the italian peninsular, BAM Civil war, but thanks to backing the rebels I have a MUCH stronger royal line, just loads of enemies and far fewer troops than I;d like...

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 26 2004,13:03)]
Quote[/b] (PseRamesses @ July 26 2004,10:43)]Tripoli fell by 1119, Palestine by 1122Ad and finally Edessa in 1124Ad thus clearing this illusive goal.
Well, how did you manage to get Edessa by crusade in 1124 AD, if Palestine fell in 1122. The Pope wouldn't let you launch another crusade until the Palestine one was done: so how would you get the marker from Ile de France into Edessa in 2 years?
As SPA stated, by ships a crusade was launched from Toulouse. After it was launched I took my army in Antioch to take Edessa so I already had it when the crusade arrived.
Now, the Pope can alow multiple crusades if he calls for a crusade a second time so I´ve actually had two active crusades at the same time on several occasions.

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Kristaps @ July 26 2004,12:58)]

Quote[/b] ]Are you playing a modded game? Just curious what is that pink faction next to Provence :) and the Brown one next to Antioch.

XL-mod by Vikinghorde, check out his own thread for more info. Genoa is held by the Genoese and Lesser Armenia by the Armenians. It´s the only one I play mainly because it´s a harder game than the vanilla, it´s great and VH is also a member of our FotN-mod crew


Quote[/b] ]As to somebody's question about the crusader provinces: all of those were controlled by Franks (crusaders) by 1100 AD.

Ahh, so THAT´S why theese provs are in the French GA-goals from the start, thanks

[PseRamesses]

Quote[/b] (Sociopsychoactive @ July 26 2004,17:38)]

Quote[/b] ]Congrats on making it I'd also like to know if it;s a modded game cus if it is that might make a difference?

THanks SPA I belive there´s nothing that can make this task easier since the XL-mod actually is actually harder than the vanilla game IMO. Within a week VH will release the new 2.0 version but a beta can already be DL at 3D, check his thread, you´ll find everything there.

[Kristaps]

Actually, the outremer provinces were conquered by the First Crusade. The later crusades were launched mostly to capture some remaining muslim urban power centers within crusader controlled territories (such as Acra), or targeted against Egypt (the last one, I believe). So, if we wanted to be historically correct, the crusader GA should be "capture the 4 provinces by a single crusade" rather than many.