Decisive Battles

[crazyviking03]

Well, that was pretty cool. That host needs to read the teleprompter alittle better though. What do you all think?

When the army got incircled and they were all bunched up, that was off the fa-shizzle. looked real.



https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasaryes.gif

[Aelwyn]

Didn't like it much. The battle engine looked great, but the show was crap. They should have just said what the battle was like, then showed IN THE BATTLE ENGINE how it happened. Don't break it up to talk a bit and say this or that. They didn't give the engine enough work to do imo. But, I guess I'm biased. If it were something I knew nothing about beforehand, I guess it would be fine. But what bothered me.... only 1/2 hr show WITH commercials?? Time Commanders was easily 45 mins without.

[Gith]

Loved it. I was extremely happy with the encircling of the army. Kept me thinking about how many times a lot of the TW forum goers have pulled that off.

Is it just me, or was the host of the show Captain Speirs from Band of Brothers?

Also...22 lbs for the Roman shield? I'm gonna have to verify that...

[IrishMike]

I agree the show was crap but they gameplay was just stunning. I had my jaw on the floor for at least 5 minutes. I didn't expect the game to look that real and who know spearmen from Africa could chew up legions like that. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Oh well, cheers everyone https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/medievalcheers.gif

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (Gith @ July 23 2004,21:05)]Is it just me, or was the host of the show Captain Speirs from Band of Brothers?
Yes it was.

[crazyviking03]

I must agree that the show was way too short.

[IrishMike]

They just told how the calvery engaged not how they were defeated, they only focused on the infantry. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/ceasarno.gif

[Aelwyn]

OK let me explain more closely for our friends across the pond.

They showed the host at the site of the battle of Cannae as the site is now. I was suprised to see its still a vacant field...if that is the actual site. They explained the background of Hannibal, as well as the makeup of a Roman army at the time. Then they showed as well as explained how the battle happened. They did a bit of info about what happened to Hannibal afterwards.

Thats all I remember off the top of my head. Through many of the scenes they would have the TW engine playing in the background while people were talking...although I wanted them to just be quiet and yield the floor to the game. But what can I do.

[crazyviking03]

Quote[/b] (Gith @ July 23 2004,21:05)]Loved it. I was extremely happy with the encircling of the army. Kept me thinking about how many times a lot of the TW forum goers have pulled that off.

Is it just me, or was the host of the show Captain Speirs from Band of Brothers?

Also...22 lbs for the Roman shield? I'm gonna have to verify that...






Yep, a Republican era scutum was around 22 pounds (10kg). This is based on modern reconstructions though, so unless Romans had lighter material than we do, it should be the same.

[IrishMike]

Yeah, anybody happen to see what happen to those Roman jalvins at the start of the battle. They just seemed to disappear into the grass.

[Sir Robin]

I was very impressed but I was also disappointed.

The engine looked fantastic.

I really enjoyed seeing it on my big screen with such clarity.

However, they could have gone into greater detail about the battle and the different phases of it.

They also could have gone into the gathering of the legions and their leaders.

What disappointed me the most was the lack of randomization.

In later video clips we have seen the troops being "out of synch." Here they were nearly in perfect lockstep.

This biggest "what?" was the calvary.

Did you notice how their tails all swung in perfect harmony?

[discovery1]

Too short, not in depth enough, and didn't give the engine enough atention.

[Xiahou Liao]

I say, too short. However, at least it was made to give us as a teaser.

[Jacque Schtrapp]

I really didn't like the way that numerous units would literally slide across the terrain "en masse" when impacted by a charge. Pushed back or thrown back, yes. But apparently the warriors of this era were provided with hob-nailed calligae complete with optional rollerblade attachments... https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif

Somewhat interesting show, fantastic graphics, and utterly boring host... that about sums it up. https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gregoshi]

On the whole, I thought is was an okay first attempt. I will agree with some of the others that 30 minutes is too short. They could have spent more time giving details of the battle.

The mini-intro mentions that the show will give us a view of the battle that the generals wish they had had. My biggest disappointment was that they didn't do that. They never zoomed out enough to show all of the forces. Had they done so, they could have froze the setup and used other graphics to highlight key areas and arrows to show how certain units would move. For example, they talked about the Libyan spearmen being held in reserve on the flanks, yet they never zoomed out enough to show us where they were in relation to the main battle lines. I was left wondering how the Romans didn't see these spearmen in that flat, open battlefield. They did a nice job of setting up the battlelines and covering the initial Roman assault on the Cartheginian center while the bulk of the Cartheginian line remained uncommited and curving away to the rear. Then suddenly the Romans are surrounded on three side with with the Libyan spearmen appearing out of nowhere on the flanks. Where did they come from? The show could have spent more time on the battle to make it clearer how the fighting unfolded.

I thought the experts were good and I didn't think the host did too bad of a job. I also thought they did a decent job with using bits of using RTW video to fill in some of the holes in the show.

[Oaty]

Well Gregoshi pretty much summed it up but I will shine some light on this

Well first of all


Quote[/b] ]The mini-intro mentions that the show will give us a view of the battle that the generals wish they had had

Just imagine if the peasants (worst of Hannibals troops) would have had this perspective) instant route

The camera angle shows that they were obviously setup for a slaughter but the key factor was that Hannoabal was right in the center cheering his worst troops on and he waited until they were engaged to send out his cavalry to hit the Romans cavalry on the flank


Quote[/b] ]
For example, they talked about the Libyan spearmen being held in reserve on the flanks, yet they never zoomed out enough to show us where they were in relation to the main battle lines. I was left wondering how the Romans didn't see these spearmen in that flat, open battlefield

The show gave me the feeling they never moved until the Roman infantry had used up all there reserves.

It was said that Hannibals troops were taking staggering losses. (basically he was lucky that his worst had held out long enough). But then again he is right there cheering them on wich I'm sure was a big factor (If you looked closely enough he was there waving his sword like a wizard, I guess it was the best way they could implement he was right there cheering his troops on) The Romans seeing that his line was about to break into 2 decided to be aggressive and send in all reserves. If all troops are engaged how are they going to quickly react to a flanking manuever. Plus at the very beginning they mentioned the Roman counsil decided to use a very offensive formation rather than a very maneuverable formation (that is unit wise they set the units very deep but a short frontline)

With all Roman units engaged (apparently from the show the cavarly was still busy) The Libyan spearmen(or whatever that unit is called) started there march forward. The Roman commander that was in charge still saw the fact that he was able to break Hannibals army in 2 probably ignored the flanks hoping that once the center was broken the morale would be broken and the battle would be over shortly.

Well again the key factor was that Hannibal was right there where his troops were getting slaughtered. Hannibal could have been good with words and I'm sure some of yas who has ran into someone good with words (possibly a good conartist) I have a feeling it was hard for them to retreat considering who was right there at there backs.


This is the EDITED part read post below if you would like to see what the army formations looked like before you read on as for some reason dashes work but underscores are'nt accepted




With all roman troops enagaged and there cavarly losing or have already lost and the Romans seeing a break through and with an aggressive commander why bother with the flanks when the battle is already won. This is when the libyan spearmen crunched in on the flanks and the cavalry was returning. The first unit of cavalry returned leaving the Romans with a small pocket in the back that was still untouched but not too long after Hannibals other unit of cavalry came and completed the encirclement. They mentioned that before this entrapment that it looked like Hannibal was losing so badly that it looked liked it was going to be any second that his army would break, but once the cavalry made there return there was no doubt about this battle and it ensured that finally his center would hold for the slaughter. At this time a hail of javelins and appearantly slingers were wasting the center of this pocket(even though I never saw the slinger units). And thus the slaughtering of the Roman troops at Cannae.

They mentioned that in this battle the Romans lost 50,000 out of there 70,000 men and Hannibal lost 10,000 out of his 40,000 men and I'm sure most of those 10,000 men were lost in the initial engagemen(plus they were his worst troops and in a commander point of view who cares, just recruit some more Gauls word of mouth of his victrious campaingns will surely get him some more gauls). I'm just wonedering how many men Hannibal took prisoner as it mentioned that much of the loyalty was taken prisoner but it could have only been loyalty and the rest slaughtered.

They also mentioned that the Roman commander was forgiven for his defeat because he took an aggressive stance on the battlefield and apparently that was what was liked and the other commander who was'nt in charge (because it was'nt his turn to command refused to retreat and got killed)

[Oaty]

For some reason my underscores did'nt show up for a simple display of army formations but I will try again




this is what Hannibals army looked likeb befor engagement





------------------


-------- ---------

---------- ---------




and this is what it looked like after engagement






-------- ---------

----------- -----------

--------------------

[Steppe Merc]

I liked it. It was a bit short, but it was still worth it. It looked as if there were a couple factions fighting on Hannibal's side with the blue Celts, the Green Gallic horse, and the Numidians. Other than that everyone else pretty much covered it.

[Gregoshi]

Thanks for the excellent explanation oaty. I guess my point was that why didn't the show really explain it? Also, even though the Libyan spearmen may not have moved until the trap was sprung, where, exactly were they on the battlefield before they moved? Not enough of it was explained, though I could piece some of it together like the change in the Hannibal's line from the beginning to the end as you so nicely illustrated.

[Gith]

Quote[/b] ]Yep, a Republican era scutum was around 22 pounds (10kg). This is based on modern reconstructions though, so unless Romans had lighter material than we do, it should be the same.


You're probably right. I just noticed they used Victor Davis Hanson (Author of "The Western Way of War", a favorite book of mine) for some of the program, and I've had a couple of friends argue his greek equipment weights were off, so I figured that could very well be the case here.

Oaty pretty much nailed it on the head. The crescent basically reversed by the end of the battle, and then the cavalry (x's, for lack of better representation) who had already defeated the outnumbered Roman cavalry, swung in and closed up the circle.



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

-------- ---------

----------- -----------

--------------------

Did anyone else with no prior knolwedge of the outcome of this battle think about doing almost exactly what Hannibal did?

I think I personally would've put the Libyan spearmen dead center, but I can see how it would've been a disadvantage to an extent, as later when the envelopment came a breakout would be easier.

[rasoforos]

It was nice. I really enjoyed the lack of frustration ( that i would get watching time comanders and listening to something like ' lets use our spear thingies to kill their horse thingies')

It was indeed too short but it was fast paced and very nice to watch.

The host reminded me of Troy McLure for the Simpsons https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[crazyviking03]

Gith:

That makes sense. I got that weight from "The Complete Roman Army" by Adrian Goldsworthy. It is a superb book, but I have not read any of his other works, so I dont know about his accuracy.

[Aelwyn]

After watching it two more times since, I've liked the show better both times. Once you get used to its shortness, you start to focus more on what is going on when you actually do see it. Then it seems fine to me, although 1/2 without commercials would have been better, but afterall this is the U.S. I feel they did a good job of keeping the action in sync with the information being given.

[Leet Eriksson]

the show was pretty good, the battle scenes were really good too. I was wondering gameplay wise if spears where a wise decision as flanking units while they should have been put in the center of the crecent to hold the brunt of the roman attack....

[crazyviking03]

Haha, I like the commercial for the show, with the two roman miniature figures.

"Oh man, we're out of a job."

[Aelwyn]

Quote[/b] (faisal @ July 24 2004,19:52)]I was wondering gameplay wise if spears where a wise decision as flanking units while they should have been put in the center of the crecent to hold the brunt of the roman attack....
It was more so to have the best units flanking to really have an impact when they hit. If Hannibal could get his weakest troops to hold the center his strongest troops could really cut up the flanks. If the poor units flanked, first off they may not have been able to close the flanks up if they encountered any resistance. And also, a breakout might have been more possible, and Hannibal didn't want that.

I'm no historian, but thats how I see it anyways.

[PSYCHO]

Quote[/b] (crazyviking03 @ July 24 2004,17:44)]"That makes sense. I got that weight from 'The Complete Roman Army' by Adrian Goldsworthy. It is a superb book, but I have not read any of his other works, so I dont know about his accuracy". - crazyviking03
He's pretty much the current leading expert on the period, so there's no prob with his accuracy.

If you like that book, definitely get his "The Punic Wars". You'll love it ..and get a good idea of what the battles were really like. There's also "Cannae" which he has written, again a fantastic book.

my2bob

[crazyviking03]

Thanks for the tip, I have been looking to buy some new books here in a few weeks, I will look for those.

[Barkhorn1x]

Some comments;

I agree that Adrian Goldsworthy is the man. Also, Victor Hanson wrote a very influential book called "The Western Way of War" - and it was nice to see him pop up.

That woman dead wrong when she stated that "the effect of elephants cannot be understated". What the? I guess they had to show/talk about elephants to please the crowd who automatically associate Hannibal w/ elephants - even tho there were none at Cannae.

The show was too short and too choppy overall. I think that it was tough to get the game engine to peform along scripted lines - which would explain the choppyness and the fact that the Spearmen came out of nowhere. I also think that this was an earlier build than we've seen of late as it shows the ulgy long neck horses and the syncro tails.

One thing has me worried - the total ineffectivness of the pilum volley - this key tactic has NO effect I hope that this is an early build issue as well.

Barkhorn.

[Catiline]

Goldsworthy is great, though he is in the habit of rewriting the same book over and over. I'm not entirely sure i like his model for hosw the legion fought either.

[Spino]

The show was ok but way too brief. With upwards of 5-10 minutes worth of commercials the show simply has to rush through everything in 20+ minutes, thus failing to give the subject matter the proper treatment. I wouldn't be surprised if the half hour format kills this show.

Settles was ok, nothing special.

Noticed they were still using an older version of the engine. The gay biker barbarian models with the tight blue jeans and bullseye shields seen in Time Commanders were still present.

Anyway, it was great to finally see the engine at work in high resolution rather than via a highly compressed video codec.

[Inuyasha12]

It won't kill the show, why?

Because i can see all of you thirsty for the next episode https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/tongue.gif

[biguth dickuth]

As most people here, i agree that the show is too short. I downloaded the edited vid from legiontotalwar and it has a length of 22 minutes without the commercials and the ending titles.
It is this shortness that prevents the show from explaining some key-factors of the battle more thoroughly.

I liked the presentation as a whole and the inclusion of some historical information regarding the geopolitical conditions that led to the battle, the aftermath and the personal information on the generals but still the show didn't have enough depth.
Had it been something like 45 minutes long, there would be enough time to show more of the battle and the tactical manouvering and implement more historical facts regarding the battle.

The graphics are amazing as expected but it would be better with the newest engine.

I also didn't like the way some popular historical myths often manage to sneak into some documentaries. The presenter mentioned, near the end, that after the destruction of Carthage the ground was sown with salt. This is, most probably, a later invented fact that didn't actually take place.