ick_of_pick
07-24-2004, 19:36
I have, and many of you may have noticed the significant historical inaccuracies in the game, and even more important, the blatant bias the developers have expressed against the Muslim factions, and to some extent the orthodox factions. Now I'm not saying the devs were completely helpless or prejudiced, they managed to get faction religion, and to a minimal extent, the geographical boundaries where the medieval empires had political control correctly. But they seemed to have designed the game with a minimum amount of regard for the Muslim factions, and as a result, the medieval Muslim factions have a unrealistically puny army. Now I’m not just ranting, I've done a significant amount of research, and I'm not the only one who's complaining about this. The stupid mistakes are as follows:
Resources:
No iron in Damascus...I mean seriously. Didn’t the Arab and Persian smiths of Damascus possess the most advanced sword making techniques in the world? Even the Japanese did not yet have that technology On top of that, there is no other province in the Middle East or far eastern Europe that contains any iron.
No gold in Arabia
Little iron in northern Germany.
No iron in Egypt, one of the largest raw material trading centers of the medieval world. Hell, I don’t even know if Egypt has food as a tradable good, the most useless Nile River I’ve ever seen.
Strategic map:
Made as if the battle of Manzekirt never took place.
The Armenians are supposed to be Christian, but the province is 99% Muslim.
The rest of the Factions basically have the wrong provinces.
Units:
Here is goes:
Janissaries were really firearm based soldiers.
Templar were supposed to be the most experienced and feared of the crusading orders, but here they're the worst.
No Varangians in late? How about doing your homework before you make a game?
Byzantine Kataphraktoi never charged into battle, they were too weighed down by the armor. They would trot into battle and start jabbing with their kontos, and act more like a mounted phalanx then charging knights, but they have a charge of 8, and the armor is pretty pathetic for the speed, especially when it’s their primary heavy cavalry unit for the ENTIRE GAME.
Firearms suck. The gun units act more like a human wall of demoralization then a division of projectile-based soldiers.
Lancers and Goths have the same armor, but the Goths are slower.
Nizaris cost 400 florins and lose to just about everything, -4 defense is a little undermining no?
Only get 12 Hashishin...
Mongol heavy cavalry is more heavily armored then chivalric knights but has significantly less melee? And the charge is only 6? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MONGOLS HERE. The Mongols were actually reported to fight extremely aggressively in hand-to-hand combat, often throwing themselves halfway off their horses to jump on an enemy, and then leap back on with one leg still on the horse.
On top of all this embarrassment, the famously loyal warriors of the Great Khan just seem to be waiting for the chance to turn and run. Mongol infantry are largely ineffective, being both weak in melee and low in moral. They are only decent as normal foot archers with cool looking helmets you trade an arm and a leg for.
Now the biggest problem: Islamic Cavalry
It is common knowledge that the one of the most expensive, fast and the most enduring horse is the Arabian. Now, I can understand the majority of Muslim lance-based cavalry having a charge of 6, as the Arabian is smaller, and therefore lighter then the destrier (large European horse), but it has naturally more endurance, and is significantly faster, let alone with all the armor the European knights wear. Now let’s start with the units.
Ghulam: The most basic Islamic cavalry. Ghulams were slave warriors who were trained from a young age in cavalry warfare. Being slaves, they were not allowed to do much more then practice fighting and actually fight, and their spare time consisted almost entirely of practice. They have a Melee of 3? The most advanced sword making techniques, constant practice, as well as very well bred mounts, and they have a melee of 3? on top of that, they move at the same speed as a European knight clad in armor, on a huge heavy, and generally poorly bred horse.
Ghulam Body Guards: Intentionally made worse then their European Counterpart despite superior Arab craftsmanship, higher emphasis on swordsmanship during training, constant practice on hunting fields and simulated combat, and only the best horses for the Sultans Guards. Not saying the European Royal Guards were anything to laugh at, they just didn’t put as much emphasis on cavalry combat, and the higher armor rating makes sense, but in general, giving Islamic cavalry lower melee is completely unrealistic.
Khwarazmiam: While most Persian cavalry were heavily armored as is accurately portrayed here, the rather lousy charge and melee puts them almost in the same position as the Ghulams. While Persian training was not as rigorous as the Turks or Arabs of the time, the Persian horses were massive, similar to the destrier in size and strength, reason being that Persian territory is not mostly desert like the western parts of the mid-east, but is largely a plateau, where the horses evolved differently then the smaller, but faster Arabians. But alas, the Khwarazmiam have a charge of 6, and a once again a pathetic melee of 3, AND it take a master spear maker and master horse breeder to produce them. Please don’t say they're worth the relatively small cost, generals need fighting units, not cannon fodder in the form of heavy cavalry.
Ottoman Sipahi: why are they even here? They are not nearly the equivalent of heavy cavalry, and they don’t have the speed of light cavalry, not to mention they are only available in an era where medium cavalry is obsolete.
Camels have no problem with temperate climates. Strange how they seem to have the same charge value of a fully armored khwarazmiam, and about 2/3rds the speed and cost.
Sipahi of the Porte: they're ok, but the unit size is just a bit too small to be effective. Not to mention, being a late era unit only, they have a weak melee ability of 4, despite the massive scimitar, and the superior training of Turkish cavalry.
Now the one thing that really got to me...Mamluks:
Most people know very little about the Mamluk dynasty of Egypt, but those who do know will probably be quick to realize there is seriously something wrong here…The Mamluks were arguably the most powerful cavalry force on the face of the planet. They beat the Mongols at their own game, pretty much destroyed the Seljuk Turks, Drove out the crusaders entirely, invaded deep into Africa, conquered the lesser Armenian kingdom, took Syria from the Mongols, and took Cyprus, all within 100 years and without losing a battle outside of a civil war. How did they do it? Well, let’s start with the most powerful cavalry force on the face of the planet. The Mamluks were superbly trained, superbly equipped, disciplined to the point of insanity, and were the top of the physical gene pool, as they were chosen and bought as slaves according to their strength and martial ability as young children, aged 5 average. The equipment that they were provided with was of the highest quality steel, some of it, despite being some three hundred years old, was later used by Napoleon Bonaparte’s cavalry, as well as the horses that had been carefully bred by the Mamluks for hundreds of years.
Now, let’s see what happened here…Mamluk Cavalry: cost 275, charge 4, melee 2, defense 3, armor 4, and honor 4.
That’s insulting. Melee of 2??? Honor 4???
Mamluk Horse archers: cost 375; charge 2, melee 3, defense 1, armor 3, honor 4.
Once again, insulting. Not only do they cost more then the heavier ax-armed version, they have higher melee capabilities and the same low honor.
I have played this game a lot, and I have spent even more time reading history books, particularly medieval history, and I can recognize obvious mistakes when I see them. As for all the above, it is not like me to complain about something without offering at least one possible solution to the problem. In my opinion, the total war community, or at least those who read and/or respond to this post should put some sort of effort to work together and create a unit stats modification that will take us a little closer to real medieval history. I would be happy to take the responsibility of compiling the information your provide me with, and doing the actual modding myself, just so long as I have your opinions on it. My objective here is not to edit the single player game to make it more realistic, but get a mod circulating that could easily be played online with other people, and would be as simple as a “realism mod” from any first-person shooter.
Thanks, Ick
Resources:
No iron in Damascus...I mean seriously. Didn’t the Arab and Persian smiths of Damascus possess the most advanced sword making techniques in the world? Even the Japanese did not yet have that technology On top of that, there is no other province in the Middle East or far eastern Europe that contains any iron.
No gold in Arabia
Little iron in northern Germany.
No iron in Egypt, one of the largest raw material trading centers of the medieval world. Hell, I don’t even know if Egypt has food as a tradable good, the most useless Nile River I’ve ever seen.
Strategic map:
Made as if the battle of Manzekirt never took place.
The Armenians are supposed to be Christian, but the province is 99% Muslim.
The rest of the Factions basically have the wrong provinces.
Units:
Here is goes:
Janissaries were really firearm based soldiers.
Templar were supposed to be the most experienced and feared of the crusading orders, but here they're the worst.
No Varangians in late? How about doing your homework before you make a game?
Byzantine Kataphraktoi never charged into battle, they were too weighed down by the armor. They would trot into battle and start jabbing with their kontos, and act more like a mounted phalanx then charging knights, but they have a charge of 8, and the armor is pretty pathetic for the speed, especially when it’s their primary heavy cavalry unit for the ENTIRE GAME.
Firearms suck. The gun units act more like a human wall of demoralization then a division of projectile-based soldiers.
Lancers and Goths have the same armor, but the Goths are slower.
Nizaris cost 400 florins and lose to just about everything, -4 defense is a little undermining no?
Only get 12 Hashishin...
Mongol heavy cavalry is more heavily armored then chivalric knights but has significantly less melee? And the charge is only 6? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT MONGOLS HERE. The Mongols were actually reported to fight extremely aggressively in hand-to-hand combat, often throwing themselves halfway off their horses to jump on an enemy, and then leap back on with one leg still on the horse.
On top of all this embarrassment, the famously loyal warriors of the Great Khan just seem to be waiting for the chance to turn and run. Mongol infantry are largely ineffective, being both weak in melee and low in moral. They are only decent as normal foot archers with cool looking helmets you trade an arm and a leg for.
Now the biggest problem: Islamic Cavalry
It is common knowledge that the one of the most expensive, fast and the most enduring horse is the Arabian. Now, I can understand the majority of Muslim lance-based cavalry having a charge of 6, as the Arabian is smaller, and therefore lighter then the destrier (large European horse), but it has naturally more endurance, and is significantly faster, let alone with all the armor the European knights wear. Now let’s start with the units.
Ghulam: The most basic Islamic cavalry. Ghulams were slave warriors who were trained from a young age in cavalry warfare. Being slaves, they were not allowed to do much more then practice fighting and actually fight, and their spare time consisted almost entirely of practice. They have a Melee of 3? The most advanced sword making techniques, constant practice, as well as very well bred mounts, and they have a melee of 3? on top of that, they move at the same speed as a European knight clad in armor, on a huge heavy, and generally poorly bred horse.
Ghulam Body Guards: Intentionally made worse then their European Counterpart despite superior Arab craftsmanship, higher emphasis on swordsmanship during training, constant practice on hunting fields and simulated combat, and only the best horses for the Sultans Guards. Not saying the European Royal Guards were anything to laugh at, they just didn’t put as much emphasis on cavalry combat, and the higher armor rating makes sense, but in general, giving Islamic cavalry lower melee is completely unrealistic.
Khwarazmiam: While most Persian cavalry were heavily armored as is accurately portrayed here, the rather lousy charge and melee puts them almost in the same position as the Ghulams. While Persian training was not as rigorous as the Turks or Arabs of the time, the Persian horses were massive, similar to the destrier in size and strength, reason being that Persian territory is not mostly desert like the western parts of the mid-east, but is largely a plateau, where the horses evolved differently then the smaller, but faster Arabians. But alas, the Khwarazmiam have a charge of 6, and a once again a pathetic melee of 3, AND it take a master spear maker and master horse breeder to produce them. Please don’t say they're worth the relatively small cost, generals need fighting units, not cannon fodder in the form of heavy cavalry.
Ottoman Sipahi: why are they even here? They are not nearly the equivalent of heavy cavalry, and they don’t have the speed of light cavalry, not to mention they are only available in an era where medium cavalry is obsolete.
Camels have no problem with temperate climates. Strange how they seem to have the same charge value of a fully armored khwarazmiam, and about 2/3rds the speed and cost.
Sipahi of the Porte: they're ok, but the unit size is just a bit too small to be effective. Not to mention, being a late era unit only, they have a weak melee ability of 4, despite the massive scimitar, and the superior training of Turkish cavalry.
Now the one thing that really got to me...Mamluks:
Most people know very little about the Mamluk dynasty of Egypt, but those who do know will probably be quick to realize there is seriously something wrong here…The Mamluks were arguably the most powerful cavalry force on the face of the planet. They beat the Mongols at their own game, pretty much destroyed the Seljuk Turks, Drove out the crusaders entirely, invaded deep into Africa, conquered the lesser Armenian kingdom, took Syria from the Mongols, and took Cyprus, all within 100 years and without losing a battle outside of a civil war. How did they do it? Well, let’s start with the most powerful cavalry force on the face of the planet. The Mamluks were superbly trained, superbly equipped, disciplined to the point of insanity, and were the top of the physical gene pool, as they were chosen and bought as slaves according to their strength and martial ability as young children, aged 5 average. The equipment that they were provided with was of the highest quality steel, some of it, despite being some three hundred years old, was later used by Napoleon Bonaparte’s cavalry, as well as the horses that had been carefully bred by the Mamluks for hundreds of years.
Now, let’s see what happened here…Mamluk Cavalry: cost 275, charge 4, melee 2, defense 3, armor 4, and honor 4.
That’s insulting. Melee of 2??? Honor 4???
Mamluk Horse archers: cost 375; charge 2, melee 3, defense 1, armor 3, honor 4.
Once again, insulting. Not only do they cost more then the heavier ax-armed version, they have higher melee capabilities and the same low honor.
I have played this game a lot, and I have spent even more time reading history books, particularly medieval history, and I can recognize obvious mistakes when I see them. As for all the above, it is not like me to complain about something without offering at least one possible solution to the problem. In my opinion, the total war community, or at least those who read and/or respond to this post should put some sort of effort to work together and create a unit stats modification that will take us a little closer to real medieval history. I would be happy to take the responsibility of compiling the information your provide me with, and doing the actual modding myself, just so long as I have your opinions on it. My objective here is not to edit the single player game to make it more realistic, but get a mod circulating that could easily be played online with other people, and would be as simple as a “realism mod” from any first-person shooter.
Thanks, Ick