WARSAW 1944

[Hetman]

This week the celebrations of the Warsaw Uprising from 1944 began.

It was one of the biggest and the most long-lasting urban battle during the 2nd World War.
Battle when several types of experimental weapons were used - some for the first time and maybe the last time during the war.
Moreover it was the true beginning of the cold war and grim prologue
of all what was to happen in the whole eastern Europe.
Finally the most shameful event for USA and the UK during the war and almost condemned to be forgotten if possible, exactly like the war in 1920.


Hetman https://forums.totalwar.org/forum/non-cgi/emoticons/gc-book2.gif

[Leo]

Quote[/b] (Hetman @ July 27 2004,10:36)]

the most long-lasting urban battle during the 2nd World War.



Stalingrad?


Quote[/b] (Hetman @ July 27 2004,10:36)]

Finally the most shameful event for USA and the UK during the war



What do you mean? As far as I know the western allies helped by dropping supplies but couldn't do much because Stalin refused to help.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I have rather mixed feelings about the Warsaw uprising.

One the one hand, it stands as a great testimony to the resolvement and courage of the Polish people.

On the other hand, starting it was a mistake by the Polish underground so great as to be almost criminal. They must have known that enticing barely armed civilians into rising up against the well-equipped German armies could only end in a carnage. From the beginning, the only possible outcome was the bloodbath that ensued, for which even the participating German soldiers felt ashamed.

As for the nearby Russians, well, what did the resistance expect? That Stalin would help his major competitors for rule over post-war Poland into the saddle? Of course the Russians wouldn't come to the rescue, and the resistance knew it.

I'm sorry, but the harsh and unbearable conclusion is that the blood of hundreds of thousands was needlessy spilled in an effort that was doomed from the beginning.

But then again, needlessy? Perhaps not. It still stands as a remarkable and heroic effort that a nation can derive pride and identity from.



On a side-note, why would it be shameful for the USA and the UK? Were they not a bit too far removed at that time from Warsaw as to be of any help?

[cegorach]

Of course Stalingrad + maybe Budapest, anyway in those places defenders were regular, well armed troopers, in Warsaw well trained, but very weak armed resistance fighters.





I've explained most of this here -

http://thelordz.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1919



In addition the allies never suported the polish government against Stalin, but rather opposite - tried to silence it when it comes to Katyn, gave Stalin eastern Poland in Teheran and 'forgot' to tell this the Poles ( quite many e.g. entire 2nd Corps fighting in Italy consisted of the Poles from eastern Poland) and finally sold Poland in Yalta. What is most outrageus Roosevelt personally asked Stalin not to inform the public about this 'deal' because he feared that he would lose the next election if 5-6 million polish community ( and quite a large communities from other east european countries) in USA learnt about this betrayal.
Poland lost the war thanks to the Allies - shall I explain this ?

Regards Hetman/Cegorach ~:)

[cegorach]

[QUOTE=Louis IV the Fat]I have rather mixed feelings about the Warsaw uprising.

One the one hand, it stands as a great testimony to the resolvement and courage of the Polish people.

On the other hand, starting it was a mistake by the Polish underground so great as to be almost criminal.

'almost criminal' - well I will answer this soon. ~:angry:

Cegorach/Hetman

[cegorach]

Louis

Your answer about Warsaw reminds me old soviet propaganda.

Sorry, if this offends You, but I have to say so.

" They must have known that enticing barely armed civilians into rising up against the well-equipped German armies could only end in a carnage. From the beginning, the only possible outcome was the bloodbath that ensued, for which even the participating German soldiers felt ashamed."

So what about Paris uprising or any other M8 ?
Calling soldiers of the Home Army civilians is offending to them and to those german soldiers who fought them - it took 63 days of bitter fighting ( more than the conquest of the whole France in 1940 !) to make them accept the capitulation proposal.
About the outcome - it could be different, but because the so-called Allies of Poland did not even try to support the polish government vs Stalin - that's why I call this betrayal.
I think that the german soldiers who fought there are ashamed, and should be for sure, but because the crimes they commited e.g. German soldiers killed at least 60 000 civilians and certainly not by mistake.

And 'could end only in a carnage' m8 - should I remind You that casualities of the resistance fighters were smaller than these of the Germans - they lost about 24 000 soldiers whereas the resistance 15 000
i.e. about 40 % of forces used during the rising.


"As for the nearby Russians, well, what did the resistance expect? That Stalin would help his major competitors for rule over post-war Poland into the saddle? Of course the Russians wouldn't come to the rescue, and the resistance knew it.
I'm sorry, but the harsh and unbearable conclusion is that the blood of hundreds of thousands was needlessy spilled in an effort that was doomed from the beginning."

Needlessly You say...
Well let's imagine what could happen to the city if the rising never started.

1. Germany declares Warsaw 'festung Warschau', fortifies it and defends it as Minsk in Belorussia i.e. until whole city is ruined and most of civilians are dead.
2. The same, but they transport the civilians outside Warsaw e.g. to death camps and to Germany to work there.
3. Communist resistance ( 500 men in Warsaw) starts the fighting - other fighters join them and casualities are even higher.
4. Germans try to remove the civilians from the city and trigger uncoordinated fighting with extremly high casualities for civilians and resistance fighters.

or if the Soviets decided to help.

After defeating the Germans most of resistance fighters are arrested and sent to Syberia - the most probable outcome.
Actually the Home Army fighters knew this and accepted this outcome, they knew that Poland was sold to Stalin, but didn't belive that they wouldn't do anything. That's all.

The rising was INEVITABLE it wasn't occupied France with Vichy government it was Poland - the Germans were hated for all these they did to Poland in 1939, Warsaw Jews, for these huntings for civilians on streets, for trying to make Poles slaves of Great Germania, for killing teachers, priests, more educated Poles generally.
The hatered was to great not to start the uprising and You could easily judge in Paris that it was useless with all the knowledge about the civilians losses ( even though biased a lot) and all the decisions.
But the Home Army DID NOT know that the Germans decided ( 2 days before) to counter-attack the Russians just few kilometers away from Warsaw and that Stalin wouldn't move even one corps to help the city - such thing didn't happen for the WHOLE WAR before or after the rising.
This time it did happen but also thank's to no real support from USA or the UK.

At least You know what uprising I am writing about, not like several french newspapers ( I believe France loves Russia too much too often).

Regards Cegorach/Hetman ~D

[Louis VI the Fat]

Cegorach/Hetman,

No offense taken of course! ~:cheers:

And yes, I'm no Roman Herzog who would confuse the Warsaw uprising with the one in the ghetto. The Jewish uprising is above criticism - they were going to be murdered, they knew it, and decided to go down with their heads help up high. Heroes.

The 1944 uprising was a mistake though. Unlike the one in the ghetto, it was not 'inevitable'. It was perfectly obvious at this time that Germany had lost the war. It was also obvious that Stalin had his own designs with Poland, and that the USA and UK would not stop him. (I'll grand you that Poland was sold out to the Soviets, though not out of indifference to the Polish plight, but for geo-political reasons)

This, the advancing Red Army, was the reason for the HA to start the uprising. In a way, it was not so much aimed against the Germans as against the Russians. The HA were hoping to establish a free Warsaw, that the Soviets could only conquer, not 'liberate'.


'Your answer about Warsaw reminds me of old soviet propaganda.'

From the above you can hopefully see why this is not the case, as I'm certainly no friend of the USSR. Maybe you can also see why I criticise the uprising. The idea of a free Poland by 1944 was a figment of the imagination by the home army. One that they should not have sacrificed 200.000 lives for. They knew Germany was defeated, they knew the Soviets were gonna take over, they knew the USA and UK would do nothing. So far, so good - if you are going down, go down fighting and rise up.
Fair enough.
BUT, they should not have taken the fight to a crowded city. Unarmed twelve year olds serve no military purpose, they're sitting ducks. They should've continued doing what they were good at, that is fighting in the woods.

Logically, the outcome of the uprising was either one of these two:
-They win. Good for them. A week later the Red Army takes over from a much weakened resistance.
-They loose. The Red Army marches in without any resistance at all. As they did.


Again, I'll express my admiration for the bravery of the Polish people involved in the uprising. But I believe it was mistake by the HA to have started it...