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Colovion
07-31-2004, 03:46
So I'm the Turks. It's only 1103 and I've already pushed the Byz back to Const. after defeating the Egyptians but now I can't gain any ground. I attack and attack or even wait for them to attack me and lose every time. I HATE their Jedi Generals as even if I'm winning a battle all they have to do is charge their KaTANKS in and I get trounced every time. the Turks have the worst infantry at the beginning of the game and their Byz inf chews me up every time. I've played and replayed so many battles just to see if it's possible to win and I'm sure there must be.

HOW DO YOU DO IT?

I love it when I'm the Byz, but fighting them with my weakling units sucks - and I can't wait until I get better units because then THEY will be unstoppable.
http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

07-31-2004, 05:20
Yes the byzantines are very powerful, i used high ground and archers as the Byz. to defeat a huge army of turks.

I guess try to use your cavalry to attack there archers and while raining arrows on the infantry, hold the high ground and charge only if they begin to retreat

Ranges
07-31-2004, 10:53
Go for the cowardly assault:
4 horse archers / Turcopoles should attack the byz every year.

Why 4?
Well, unless you are a master of micromanagement, 4 is about as many as you can handle..

What to do?
Well, walk up to the bys flanks with 1 unit of HA, rain arrows on an unsuspecting bunch of infantry, wait till they come for you, and sandwich keep them running while raining arrows on them.

This should easily kill the equivalent of 1 to 2 units per turn. And the byz cant build more than 1 in constantinople. Result; the huge byz army is whittled down over several years, until you can come for them with the most crack units you can summon.. Err.. That's Armenian heavy cav, saracen foot, ghulams and your favorite archers.. :P

Just make sure that when you send an army that's going to stay, it has plenty of power. Otherwise you'll be in trouble.

One last word of advise:
Kata's are totally helpless against horse archers. If a kata chases one of your HA's, nail it from a distance. http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Ludens
07-31-2004, 11:06
The nice thing about high valour troops is that they are just as vulnerable to missiles as low valour ones. Off course, high command with their extra hitpoints are more of a challenge.
But what you need are horse archers. Use one to lure the general away and two others to rain arrows on him. It will take a while, but eventually his hitpoints will run out. Kataphraktoi do not have shields so there is no need to get behind them.

As this requires that you use three units of yours to take care of one of them, the combat power you can use against the 15 other Roman units is seriously reduced. Therefor I would not aim for a total victory, but rather a strategical one. Also, the horse archers require a lot of attention and that is difficult is you are busy fighting elsewhere.

When in my Egyptian campaign I encountered the same problem, I made a habit of sending a cavalry task force to the army of the Kataphraktoi general. Their purpose was not to defeat this army, but to kill the general.
It should contain several units of HA (their speed is not very important, but their morale is), preferably one or two units of mounted crossbows if you can hire them. The ordinairy HA serve as lure, the MC as killers.
The rest of my force was a combination of Saharan cavalry, Armenian cavalry and perhaps a little infantry (desert archers mainly). No Kwarzmiam cavalry since it is too slow. Their purpose is to occupy the rest of the army without suffering too much casualties.
Once the general was dead, I would either withdraw or finish the Romans of, depending on how much resistance I expected.

There is also the rather cheesy tactic of bringing artillery and hoping for a lucky hit. But you have to be very lucky for that http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif .

Marquis of Roland
07-31-2004, 18:13
Jedi general katank units are easily handled by about 4-6 turcoman horse. I use one unit to draw away the katank from the rest of the byz army and then draw him into an semicircle ambush behind the crest of a hill, where the rest of my turcoman horse are waiting. The katanks will be whittled down surprisingly fast.

While that is going on you send your AHC, Khwarsems, and any other shock cav you have against their heavy infantry. Try to recruit as many Druzhina Cav mercs as you can, and dismount them into feudal foot knights. 100-man feudal foot knight units will do a good number on any infantry the byz come out with.

This would be using your best general, of course, with at least 5* or something.

Ludens
07-31-2004, 18:24
I forgot to add: naphta is really effective against Katanks, so you if you can hire naptha trowers, give it a try. You need a sturdy (high morale) pinning unit for this to work.

Javelins are also supposed to work, but frankly I can't work out how they should be used. I only manage about a dozen casualities before my pinning units decide to bolt.

Si GeeNa
08-02-2004, 03:09
Sounds like you are too used to using Western tactics with the Turkish units.

As we all know, Muslim units are rarely as heavy as their Western counterparts. In this, lies their strength. Use thier speed and mobility to engage the Katanks from a distance. 2 Turcoman/ HA playing Tag on a Katank will put it down to size before finishing with a AHC. Do not spend too much on your infantry as they are not much of a match against the Byz infantry and VGs... Unless you're getting Gahzis to do the dirty.

Go Cav-Heavy, mate. Use them to taunt and tease. Byz units are too slow for the Turkish Cav. Dance and dodge...

http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

The_Emperor
08-02-2004, 09:14
Turcoman Horse from Tripoli... (with the +1 Valour bonus) With a Master Horse Breeder are the way to go.

Conentrate as much firepower on the general as you can and slay him, then his army will lose the command bonuses from his rank and will be easier to kill.

Use your Armenian Heavy Cav for short and sharp flanking charges and hold the line with some Saracens and/or Muwahid Foot.

Personally I think the best strategy of Turks against the Byz is to invade Constantinople (probably through Trebizond or from the Sea) and hold it, that way you will force the Byz into a situation where they rely on Vanilla Urban Militia and Slav Warriors instead of Byz Inf.

RollingWave
08-02-2004, 10:19
Basically normal katanks are weak.... but jedi katank generals are insane... for normal katanks just rain them with arrows and then face them with saracen infantries.. but for the jedis ur best solution is naptha throwers... klling a ton of ur units is worth it if u can blow away a 8-9 start jedi general.

Turks lack any real man at arms type of units... but they can easily tech to v2 turcoman horse AND armenian cav in 30-40 turns... v2 turcoman are extremely solid horse archer/light cav while v2 armenian cav = chivalric knights that comes at half price and very early....... they will destroy anything except spears and jedis basically...

And turk still have the extremely solid saracen infantry in early.... although it won't get you many kills it will be able to hold the lines very well.

Louis VI the Fat
08-05-2004, 01:40
Next to using all these excellent tips on a tactical level, perhaps you could try to 'dance and dodge' on a strategic level as well. Turks this early get annihilated when fighting an open battle against a Jedi led 16 unit Byz army.

So, avoid it.

Try to force the Byz to split up their armies. No matter how many Jedi's they've got, they can't have one everywhere. Attack them in several provinces at a time, cowardly withdrawing from battles where they employed Jedi's, killing off their troops where they didn't. Sacrifice a province if you have to too make them split up their forces. Tempt them into attacking you in Trebizond, while you sneak into the backdoor in Constantinople, destroying their Byz inf factory. Make feignt attacks into Jedi defended provinces, forcing them to keep their best generals there, while simultaneously nibbling away periferal provinces one at a time.
(Come to think of it, some of this is not very different from how the Turks did it for real...)

Wear the Byz down, kill off their armies in several chunks, slowly but surely. Avoid katank Jedi's like a plague until you've snatched their armies away from underneath their noses, until it's you against only a katank Jedi and whatever rabble you've left him with.

Maeda Toshiie
08-06-2004, 03:44
Go for the cowardly assault:
4 horse archers / Turcopoles should attack the byz every year.

Why 4?
Well, unless you are a master of micromanagement, 4 is about as many as you can handle..

What to do?
Well, walk up to the bys flanks with 1 unit of HA, rain arrows on an unsuspecting bunch of infantry, wait till they come for you, and sandwich keep them running while raining arrows on them.

This should easily kill the equivalent of 1 to 2 units per turn. And the byz cant build more than 1 in constantinople. Result; the huge byz army is whittled down over several years, until you can come for them with the most crack units you can summon.. Err.. That's Armenian heavy cav, saracen foot, ghulams and your favorite archers.. :P

Just make sure that when you send an army that's going to stay, it has plenty of power. Otherwise you'll be in trouble.

One last word of advise:
Kata's are totally helpless against horse archers. If a kata chases one of your HA's, nail it from a distance. http://212.238.194.39/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

1. I use 6-8 HA types. Use them in pairs, not singly.

2. Turcoman horse, not turcopoles. Turcopoles are christian mercs.

3. Sacren Inf, use them. Spearmaker's workshop for chiv sgt type unit. If you can get Ghazis, get them as well.

The Grand Inquisitor
08-06-2004, 06:02
You could try and assassinate the Byzantine super generals - I know it's a long shot but Syria does produce +2 valour assassins, as well as +1 valour Nizari. So it's worth building up the tavern levels there.

eadeater
08-10-2004, 16:16
I'd give up and play as the Byzantines ~:) they rule ~:cool:

Vlad Tzepes
08-10-2004, 17:24
The nice thing about high valour troops is that they are just as vulnerable to missiles as low valour ones. Off course, high command with their extra hitpoints are more of a challenge.
But what you need are horse archers. Use one to lure the general away and two others to rain arrows on him. It will take a while, but eventually his hitpoints will run out. Kataphraktoi do not have shields so there is no need to get behind them.


Absolutely right Ludens, add that Katatanks are slow. 2 or 3 Turcoman horse units will skirmish successfully, harassing till there is no breath left in those uber-byz-units.

Funny thing, I once tried a battle, as Turks vs. Byz., using only Turcoman Horse archers. Only for fun, I thought, but in 20 min., the Byz. were running like hell (but you need lots of maneouvering on the battlefield).

afrit
08-10-2004, 18:07
Agree with the gist of all the replies: use HA or Turcomans to whittle down the Katanks and eventually finish them off. It typically takes two battles to kill a jedi general: first battle to whittle his unit down to 4-5 men. Second battle finish him off.

I found the Turks to be actually easier than Egypt or Spain or France on Early. Why? because the HA and Turcomans have no effective counter-unit at this stage of the game.

afrit