medieval italian mod

[Shrew]

i posted this topic in the old forum but i will post it again till the old one comes back. Anyway this is how far i have got

i will haev the the following factions
Papacy
Savoy
Milanese
Genoese
Venetians
Sicilians
Neapolitans
Sienese
Florentines

hear are some troop ideas
swiss pikemen (mercenary)
english longbowmen (mercenary)
german knights (mercenary)
catalan man at arms (mercenary)
venetians stradiot ( a balkan light cav)
carrioccas (a ox drawn cart used to to inpire moral)
mounted arqbuisters
+ the usual troops

i am havign big problems with lukemap maker and if anyone would like to try and make a map assistance woudl be welcome. I look forward to suggestions.

[saundersag]

i have a new account and i am no longer shrew but saundersag

i would like if somone would like to help do the campaign map

i have come up with several units standard for all factions
but i would like to help finding faction units

at the moment all i have are stradiots venetians, genoese crossbowmen and finally genoese sailors.

[Al Khalifah]

Hey Shrew/saundersag. While I did read the post in the old forum I've forgotten what the time period for this mod was exactly, since it makes a huge difference in a technologically advanced area like Italy.

If you can tell me that I could tell you lots of faction-specific units.

[saundersag]

Thanks for your intrest Al Khalifah. The mod will be based approximately between 1300-1500. I have found quite a bit of information about the venetians in the two crowns forum and i have foun da few specialist units for the genoese howver most the other factions i have found very little. I did find a mention of the popes guard but that is about it. I look forward to your suggestions and information

[Al Khalifah]

Ok more info to come soon but just a quick bit of info.

If the mod takes place post 1300 then Sicily should be in the control of Aragon. The War of the Sicilian Vespers officially ended in 1302 (I believe) although fighting between the House of Anjou and Aragon continued long after this. If this is so, then Sicily should be able to import Aragonese units from this period in the game (so if there is a port, then Iberian units could be trained by the Aragonese).
If you count Sardinia as part of Italy, then this was invaded by the Aragonese in 1323-24 having been promised to the Aragonese by Pope Boniface VIII in 1297. Again, true gonvernship of this isle would not be an actuality for some time.

Proper unit info for some other factions a wee bit later, but this should give you an idea of units for the Sicilians/Aragonese.

[historycaesar]

Will the Croatian coast be in the game? Venice had several vassel cities here.

What about the Aegean islands and the coast of Hellas, Asia Minor, and Thrace?

[saundersag]

Thanks again for your suggestions and information. Al Khalifah i am going to have sardinia as part of the map and also corsica which will be genoese territory. Historycaesar i was thinking whether to have the balkans on the map or not. If they were it would just be the coastline. This would also allow units like the stradiots (balkan light cavalry) to have homeland and one province might give them a bonus. However i feel areas near greece would be too far and this would mean that the map would bevery large and i would like to focus more on the factions then there empires. Also only Genoa and Venice had oversee lands and i feel that it would be strange if other factions suddenly started to gained oversea empires. So the coast of balkans probably but not really any further.
I also have an idea i would like to see what you think of. I feel in medival total war the urban miltia are a gross over simplification. In Italy the majority of infantry were miltia and they had a whole variety of weapons. So what i thought i could do was to make buildings like town watchs give bonuses to some of the infantry in the game. But this is only an idea and if you don't like it please tell me.

[Al Khalifah]

The use of the term "Urban Militia" in the game is a gross over-simplification, most troops in medieval times were what would be called "militia" - there were very few professional soldiers at this time.

You're right about Urban Militia using a variety of weapons, but this is another of MTWs simplifications. In medieval times, drafted units would be very unlikely to be all identically armed unless their arms had been provided by their lord. So a unit of spearman would all be similarly armed with spears.
Militia on the other hand would mostly be armed with whatever weapons were available in the town at the time in addition to base tools that could be used as weapons e.g hammers, axes, knives, pitch-forks and protected by improvised shields and armour. Soldiers in melee units might even carry crossbows. Plus of course, after the battle better weapons could always be taken from those who didn't need them anymore (the dead).

The town watch building should be a meeting place where, in the event a town is attacked or a call to arms is given, arms would be stored and the fighting men would muster. By having a better town watch, a province should get improved 'militia' units.

[Al Khalifah]

In other words - I like the idea.

[saundersag]

Thankyou for your views and information ~:)
Another idea i was having was to have foreingn mercenaries like longbowmen and swiss pikeman as mercenaries and working the same way as they do in medieval. Howver having mercenaries like the conditorri as being trained like normal troops. I could give them lower loyalty but i am not sure. I feel that a new building should be built which allows you to train conditorri troops. I have also found accounts of the neapolitans having hired turkish ligth cavalry. So it was not just the europeans who had mercenries but i will have to look further into that.

[Al Khalifah]

I suppose you could have 'mercenery' merceneries that are trained through the Inn and are completely random in their appearance within the game. These could be the further away sort of units.
Then there could be mercenery units that could be trained like regular units, but should still retain the high support cost. These would be the sort of units that could be commonly found and easily available in Italy such as units from Croatia or Greece. The Brundisium province could even get a bonus for its Greek units being so close as it is.

I think this is what you were thinking. It'd just be a case of deciding which units were in which of these two categories.

Turkish units were used as mercenaries by rival Italian factions in this period - but this was mostly Naples and Genoa. The Papacy or the Aragonese - I don't think so. Personally I wouldn't include longbows since they were a distinctly English and Welsh unit and they would have been too busy to be spared throughout this period due to the hundred years war. Genoa also on occasion used pagan merceneries, since they had possesions in the Black Sea used in trading.

[saundersag]

the reason for me refering to longbowmen all the time is that a book i own said that after the hundred year war many of the english soldiers were unemployed and became mercenaries and many i think went to italy.
One think i might do is to slightly stereotype the foreign troops so you might have one type of troop from each country. For example the swiss would have pikeman, the german shock troops in the form of mena at arms and the english with longbowmen.

i will give you a draft version of the two types of mercenaries.
Trained ones: straditorri (venetians), conditorri heavy cavalry, conditorri light cavalry, svelky(maybe), SFAKIOTY (cretan archers, venetians)
normal ones: english longbowmen(maybe), german men at arms, french knights(maybe), swiss pikemen, catalan, castillian men at arms.

i have heard that in savoy they had a large french influence and the neapolitans were ruled by a french dynasty the angevins. So do you know how this affected there troops

[saundersag]

sorry for putting this in two posts i have very little knowledge about the greek mercenries and troops used by teh venetians and other factions could you please tell me more and i am not sure where the Brundisium province is sorry for my ignorance.

[Al Khalifah]

I'm preparing a big post for you on all units I know of for this period used in Italy but to answer one question quickly:
Brundisium was a Roman city that was used as a port to Greece because of all the Roman cities it was the closest. It was opposite Appollonia. Apollogies for using the name, since I don't know if it was still a city after the fall of the Western Roman Empire or if the name changed - probably did. If you imagine Italy as a woman's boot, Brundisium would be on the heel.... that province is the closest to Greece.

Damn classics.

[historycaesar]

Appollonia became Dyrracerianum or Dyrracerianios I believe.

Instead of inculding Greece and the Aegean, maybe Venice and Genoa could get boni of some sort?

I agree with Urban Milita and the whole Mercenary thing. There was an Englishman who led several Mercenary campaigns in Italy I believe.

Finally, Is it possible to add in events to simulate the Renaissance?

[Al Khalifah]

historycaesar did Brundisium change its name too?

I wasn't suggesting Greece and the Aegaen should be included - but I was thinking what you are suggesting, that the faction controlling the provinces closest to Greece should recieve a bonus when recruiting Greek mercenaries. Great minds think alike.

As far as I know, it is not possible to add new historical events to the game. I believe these are hardcoded into the game.

[historycaesar]

historycaesar did Brundisium change its name too?

I wasn't suggesting Greece and the Aegaen should be included - but I was thinking what you are suggesting, that the faction controlling the provinces closest to Greece should recieve a bonus when recruiting Greek mercenaries. Great minds think alike.

As far as I know, it is not possible to add new historical events to the game. I believe these are hardcoded into the game.

Brundisium fell out of favor during the Dark Ages and Lecce became the chief port to the east.

Appollonia or Apollonia became Dyrrachium or modern Durr'

Sorry for the mistake

[Al Khalifah]

Good knowledge.

[Despot of the English]

I agree with Urban Milita and the whole Mercenary thing. There was an Englishman who led several Mercenary campaigns in Italy I believe.

That'll be Sir John Hawkwood ~:cool: .

[saundersag]

Thanks for your suggestions and help. One event i thought i might put in if it is not too hard is too add the french invasion of italy. I thought that maybe it could be kike when the mongols attack in normal medieval however that may just be too hard. I am not sure. I think giving bonuses to troops in provinces with ports to other colonies is a good idea. However for Geona i thought that genoese crossbowmen would get bonuses there. For venice i am not sure which troop should get a bonus. However i have another idea, which is to give boats being built in venice bonuses as venice was a big maritime power which was largely due to its naval power. I think. The idea of the balkans is growing on me and this would allow bonuses for stradiots. I would just like to ask one question which is what was the genoese empire as i believe they had foreign lands but could somone tell me where.

[Al Khalifah]

I (am not sure but) think they had some territory in the Crimea and in Moldavia and a small part of Çandar (on the MTW map this would be in Trebizond). Not 100% sure on this but in a map of the region for 1380 backs up this belief because Genoa is shown as having these territories on there too.

[historycaesar]

Genoa held Kaffa and Kerch or Caffa and Cerch, I believe the cities that line the entrance to the gulf of Corinth, Petra (across from Constantinople), Candar and a few small Aegean Islands.

Venice held Ragusta, Illyria and Dalamatia, Corfu, Corinth, Crete, Cyprus after a certain date, several Aegean islands and several cities on the Gulf of Corinth.

Also, what about an event for the Venetians/Genoians/Paple States for aiding the collapsing Byzantine Empire?

The French invasion of Italy was not until the reign of Francis I I believe so maybe the mongols could be the Turks attacking the Balkans or The HRE invading Northern Italy?

[historycaesar]

About the map, what provinces will be used?

how about: Torino, Savoy, Nice, Genoa, Liguria, Milan, Lomardia, Verona, Mantua, and Venice in Northern Italy

Bologna, Romagna, Emilia, The Marche, Florence, Umbria, Tuscany, Pisa, and Lucca in North-Central Italy

Roma, Bari, Beneveto, Capua, and Napoli in Central Italy

Lecce, Apulia, and Calabria in Southern Italy

Messina and Syracuse in Sicily

Sardenia and Corsica in the Tyrrhenian Sea

and if the Balkans are inculded

Ragusta, Zeta, Illyria, Dalamatia, and Dyrrachium on the Adriatic Coast

Athens, Corinth, Morea, Corinthian Peninsula, Gulf Cities, Corfu, and Epiros in Sothern Hellas

Thessolonika, and Thesselia in Northern Hellas

Constantinople, and Thrace in Thrace

Petra, Symerna, Ephisos, Candar, and Rhodes in Asia

Northern Aegean, Southern Aegean and Crete in the Aegean and Eastern Mediterranean

What do you'll think?

[saundersag]

i have being thinking about the map more and i think there are two options either i have italy split into tiny areas like this.
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/italy_div96.jpg

or i could have a map which has around twenty provinces in italy. this is a rough sketch of what italy the provinces might be i tried to follow regions but please tell me which parts are wrong.
http://img51.exs.cx/img51/3881/italy_1494_shepherdeditted.jpg
. i would like to know which you would prefer. I think areas around greece i will not include but i will include balkan costal areas. The reason i asked about genoese oversee provinces was find out if they had troops from those areas. I thought that near the centra balkans you could have the mongols or turks behind as an unplayable faction. I just would like to have the invasion by the french as this invasion resulted in italy being under foreign powers for teh next few hundred years. History of Caesar some of these provinces i know where they are but some i am less sure about. If you could make a rough map of find one i would be very greatful. I thought Nice was in France?

[saundersag]

sorry again for putting this into two post. But anyway i was thinking of faction colours and thisis what i have com up with.

Papal: gold,white
Sicillian: grey, white
Milan: green, white or yellow
Sienese: black, white maybe just black if problems with similarity to sillician colours.
Venetians: red, yellow
Savoy: red, white or just red
Florence: red, white or just red
Naple: ?
Genoa:?

i'll now show you there crests and flags

venitian
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/211/veniceflag.gif
florence
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/2749/italianflags4.jpg
milan and siena
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/5316/italianflags1.jpg
savoy
http://img52.exs.cx/img52/808/italianflags5.jpg

[saundersag]

if any of you know the emblem or colours for genoa and naples please tell me. I am having problems with luke map maker and if anyone would like to make it i would be very thankful. Please tell me if you would want lots of provinces for each faction or if you are fine with having some with only one.

[historycaesar]

The crest of genoa is the crest of st. george, red cross on white

The Napolian crest is like the french one but with a gold banner at the top

[saundersag]

Thanks a lot for that historycaesar. I would still like people's views on if they want italy with 50 so provinces or one with around 20. If anyone has any ideas or information i would be very grateful.

[historycaesar]

We should have Italy set up so that the important cities and the lesser ones Ancona, Ferra, Urbino, etc... should be seperate provinces with provinces Lombardia surrounding them.

Will make a map in photoshop to show you what i mean

[historycaesar]

I made arough map, will post it soon

[saundersag]

i am looking forward to seeing it HistroryCaesar. I am now onto doing the sheilds for the factions. It is quite small but it has taken me awile to get a method to make good ones. It is the florentine sheild.
Hear is a hyperlink to it. florence sheild ( http://www.2and2.net/Priv/florence sheild cool.bmp)
and hear is a flag too florentine flag for castle (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_Castle_Flag%20flo.bmp)
small sheild small florentine sheild (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_Sml_Shield%20flor.bmp)
christian sheild florence christian sheild (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_Christian_Piece_Shield%20flor.bmp)
muslim sheild muslim sheild (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_Muslim_Piece_Shield%20flor.bmp)
glory sheild glory sheild (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/BLank_Glory_Shield%20flor.bmp)
venetian castle flag castle flag (http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_Castle_Flag%20venice.bmp)

[historycaesar]

Very good shields i'm gonna work on the map, make it presentable, i have the provinces in on my photoshop copy and i need to fix italy in Calabria and add rivers, etc...

[saundersag]

thanks for the praise Historycaesar. I wait avidly for your map. I am sure it is great. I will continue with the sheilds. :computer:. I have just previoulsy set the ai for the different factions. There are different catogories like expansionist, naval expansionist, trader, and defenisve. Genoa and Venice at the moment have naval expansionist. While florence has trader and the papcacy have a special one called pope. However for all the rest i have put expansionist. I was just wondering how you thought the computer should act as each of the factions.

[historycaesar]

Naples should support the French invasion so maybe: Foreign as a trait

also Sicily could either be an aragonese province or a semi-independent nation

[saundersag]

Your ideas are good however the ai has set operations which it can only do and creating new ones i think would be very hard hear are all the options. As none of they were all the catholic teh orthodox and muslim ai settings we can't use. From what i have read none of the italian armies had any hospitaller knights or something of that kind so none of them should be crusader i think. The only one which might would be the papacy who have their own set ai. I thinking anyway of not includign crusades in my mod. I think some could be traders. I think that genoa and venice should either be naval expansionis or trader maybe one of each. I am not sure if a i posted this but i was thinking of having an unplayable faction behind the balkans, was it the turks or teh mongol horde i am not sure coul dyou please look into it for me. I suppose if it is the mongol horde then they have barabarian radiers. However if it is the turks maybe muslim expanshionist but i am not sure.The others i am less sure about so tell me out of these what you think each faction should have. i look forward to your opinion.

p.s I think that for France if i am going to do what i want with the invasion part they may have to be barbarian radiers.

//CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST_CRUSADER
//CATHOLIC_EXPANSIONIST
//CATHOLIC_NAVAL_EXPANSIONIST
//CATHOLIC_ISOLATIONIST
//CATHOLIC_TRADER
//CATHOLIC_CRUSADER_TRADER
//CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE_CRUSADER
//CATHOLIC_DEFENSIVE
//ORTHODOX_EXPANSIONIST
//ORTHODOX_STAGNANT
//ORTHODOX_DEFENSIVE
//MUSLIM_EXPANSIONIST
//MUSLIM_PEACEFUL
//MUSLIM_DEVOUT
//POVERTY_STRICKEN
//DESPERATE_DEFENCE
//CLOSE_TO_SUPPORT_LIMIT
//POPE
//BARBARIAN_RAIDER
//REBELS

[historycaesar]

Balkans = turks

[saundersag]

i am going to post some sheilds again. I have done a large sheild of each hear they are. All of them that i am doing.

venice
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20ven.bmp
florence
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/florence%20sheild%20cool.bmp
milan
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20milan.bmp
siena
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20siena.bmp
naples
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20naples.bmp
savoy
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20savoy.bmp
genoa
http://www.2and2.net/Priv/Blank_lge_Shield%20genoa.bmp

[saundersag]

Sorry for double posting. However i was wondering what people thought of an idea i have had. There were ox drawn carts know as carriocha. They carried a flag with an emblem of the different factions they were used as a rallying point. i had an idea that they could give the army a moral boost. as historically during the battle if the troops could see the banner then they knew they had not lost yet. However if the enemy destroyyed it this woul ddihearten the army. A bit like the general units in NTW
Hear is picture of one.
http://img54.exs.cx/img54/2089/carroccio.jpg

[historycaesar]

Cool

[saundersag]

I have been doing a bit more research into units i have found teh swiss guard who were elite swiss halbedirs for teh pope. I have been looking a lot at the balkans. As it was largely part of the venetian empire. However i have found no units apart from stradiots if anyone knows of any units please post. I think there were some special units for the dalmatian coast but i ahve found nothing but please tell me if you know anything. Also if anyone knows of any units from near crimea please tell me as genoa had colonies there and if you know of any units used in italian armies approxismtely between 1300-1500 please tell. I await you responses avidly. :help:

[saundersag]

I originally posted this in the entrance hall as i was a junior patron but now as a member i can start a thread in the dungeon and so i have started this thread in there it is called Italian Wars Total War.

[saundersag]

Sorry hear is a link to the new thread https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35134