hey would\'nt it be interesting

[leoknite]

if in the next game some troops may instead of running become defeacters, and fight for the other army, for example all my men are running I have 1 ashi left, suddenly they go oo screw it and there flags change color! How bout shinobi in battles, have shinobis run into a low honour enemy unit, and they can make them change sides or have the control change to the AI, o well, it would be nice in my opinion!

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Ronin alliance our power lies in our seperated nature, and united we are as strong as any clan, honour to alliance!

[johnmcd]

Swapping sides is something I'd like to see, though primarily for peasants, not samurai, and certainly not high honour samurai. I don't think that it should be incitable on the tactical map, but perhaps a shinobi could ferment revolt before a battle to make it more likely? In the same way a ninja can kill an enemy general before a battle to weaken morale, perhaps a shinobi could incite unrest before a battle to make desertation more likely during a battle?

It might be too powerful though.

[theforce]

Nope. It would ruin the multiplayer. Imagine you winning and a Shinobi changes yer men that watch for flanks......
I think Shogun is the best multiplayer game ever, we must not screw it up http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Anssi Hakkinen]

Actually, Johnmcd-san, I think Ashigaru should be less prone to defection; after all, they're only peasants. They don't have to worry about seeing their families executed or anything like that should their army lose; they can (and do) just run away if they find themselves in danger of death on the battlefield. On the other hand, samurai have much more complex interests; they must worry about their fiefs and their subjects, not to mention about becoming rônin if their master gets killed. Historically, some samurai were notoriously prone to changing sides on the fly to assure a more beneficial outcome for themselves: look no further than Sekigahara for an example...

However, shinobi that can magically convert troops to fight for a different lord belongs in Red Alert 2 (psionics!), not in a serious historical game like STW.

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"If you start a fight, you must win it. Fighting, however, is not your objective. The most important thing is to win without fighting."
- Risuke Otake Sensei

[This message has been edited by Anssi Hakkinen (edited 12-29-2000).]

[Ii Naomasa]

I must agree with Anssi-san. Although a good number of Sengoku-era battles were won by defections (even Sekigahara could've gone either way had not some generals on Ishida's side not favored Tokugawa), it is a concept best used in games like Nobunaga's Ambition, where your subordinate officers can be nurtured and cared for (or lack thereof) and their loyalty watched to some degree. Since that part of the strategic game is missing, it would most probably turn into 'converting unit Shinobi', which would be a step in the wrong direction, in my most humble opinion.

As Anssi points out, peasant troops were nameless, faceless individuals. It really never mattered to them who won most battles and they would just fade into obscurity in any case (unless they got lucky and took an important head somewhere). Samurai had to worry about their future and their families' future. It would be better in some of their eyes if they could keep their land and title than die honorably with their lord. After all, no one will make too much of your 'honor' if you're on the winning side (although I can imagine your new lord not trusting you fully).

[This message has been edited by Ii Naomasa (edited 12-29-2000).]

[BakaGaijin]

Magic conversions = bad thing.

However, it would be nice if Shinobi could sow dissention in the enemy army just before a battle, similar to a lower-grade version of the Ninja effect. Of course, Shinobi are useful enough as they are without any new features, so I could easily live without any changes. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[leoknite]

well I was'nt really thinking that shinobis could be a unit, but how bout defectors, its very possible, alot of men seeing that all was lost turn on there own allies, maybe shinobi aint a good idea, but how bout defectors, a sort of penality for low honour units!!!

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Ronin alliance our power lies in our seperated nature, and united we are as strong as any clan, honour to alliance!

[chicken]

About your part with 1 ashi left, that happened to me once and I defeated an army of 360 with him http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif. About the changing sides it could make a little more sense if you had for example an army of 960 and you were fighting 120 Ashi and you can put your troops on a mode that they do not attack but stand and intimidate the enemy. Depending on the honour and the size of both armies(also the morale of the ashi) would be the chances of defection of the Ashi. That shinobi thing is like yuri's in RA2. It wouldn't make sense to have an automatic capture.