View Full Version : When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?
I dont, because, well, they never work, what is good though if you build them in owari, tasty honour 3 ashigaru near the beginning of the game! if you force it
MizuKokami
07-18-2002, 00:56
their best uses are to beef up the size of your army, making it less likely some other daimyo or rebel will attack you. great for making it look like you got good armies also. take 900 ashi to a territory that's defending with 200 or so men, see if that works.
[This message has been edited by MizuKokami (edited 07-17-2002).]
LittleGrizzly
07-18-2002, 05:05
never use them and i find playing against them is great as a lot of the time 1 runs they all run!
Mithrandir
07-19-2002, 03:12
I actually just started an ODA campaign (first time) and I only used them in the beginning and only trined 'em in the river province which is famous for it's Ashiguru units, they are very cheap and nice to have in the beginning, but when I could afford it I only trained YS for the Yari defences...
Oda has a nice bonus that it can take the capital (with relative ease once you've got HC [ which doesnt take very long since there's a prvince with iron deposits nearby ] ) since it's only defende d by SA and WM...
it gives all your units a +1 honour bonus trainde in that region http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif.
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Just aded another post :D
Mithrandir Poster of usefull information and entertaining posts (http://www.montypython.net/cgi-bin/dl2/full.cgi?spamsong.wav)
I love just using 10 units of Ashigaru. Charging blindly at the enemy and being wiped out.. Then in comes my heavy cavalry and naginatas as reinforcements. You should see them run.
1dread1lahll
07-21-2002, 19:54
Single player Oda yes, makes it easy.... crank out 5+ units to the others 1 but you need to manage their morale, ashi plus arch and a few cav to chase down enemy......easy to win campaign.......
Sjakihata
07-21-2002, 22:47
Powerplay
Quote Originally posted by Sjakihata Akechi:
Powerplay[/QUOTE]
... in wedgies.
Or in loose formation.
Imagine 960 wet-pansie ashigaru all over the place, running like beheaded chicken.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://www.grahamday.dial.pipex.com/rose-knight1.gif
Quote Originally posted by Gothmog:
Or in loose formation.
Imagine 960 wet-pansie ashigaru all over the place, running like beheaded chicken.
[/QUOTE]
Ah so! What a sight! Such a mass truly "attacks like water"!
GAH!
I like to use the clan's advantages because I like to act historically accurate. So I train lots of Ashigaru, and with Oda I rarely train other units. (But remember: "Teppo Ashigaru" is also an Ashigaru :yes:) Ashis are not horribly bad, they can hold the ground and win the battle when high honored and upgraded.
ReluctantSamurai
12-08-2015, 12:13
But remember: "Teppo Ashigaru" is also an Ashigaru
And if you play the Oda 1580 campaign on expert (Warlord edition), it's darn near impossible to win without them. Unlike any other campaign for any clan, where you have some time at the start to build infrastructure and raise armies, in Oda 1580, all clans start with well developed infrastructure, and you are set upon by an Imagawa-Takeda alliance...complete with BFN, and all sorts of Takeda cavalry...within the first four turns. And they go Terminator on you...they never...ever... stop:sweatdrop:
Your worst nightmare is to have a Takeda-Imagawa alliance on one side, and Mori-Shimazu on the other. I've had several of those kind of games that made me seriously consider revoking my self-imposed ban on assassinating enemy Daimyo's and heirs:beadyeyes2:
And if you play the Oda 1580 campaign on expert (Warlord edition), it's darn near impossible to win without them.
Hmm... "Challenge Accepted"! :2thumbsup:
You are absolutely right, 1580 Oda is by far the most challenging and enjoyable setting!.. Tokugawa and Takeda attacks you in second turn with the most fearsome compositions, golden armored cavalries and Battlefield ninjas.. And all you have is Ashis :)
And I find "fighting at two fronts" you mention really enjoyable.. AI has an advantage over you in Strategy map, he plays after you play.. And exploit all the gaps you created because of the lack of men. You hold ground with small armies which are depending on only one or two core strong units, and Ashis as a support.. I miss those settings.
But I am sure you can still win with only Ashis, you know?
Most of the time I was giving up when I lost Owari and the north of Owari to Takeda&Tokugawa horde, because I take it as my frontline has been breached and it's impossible to win, so I simply restart.
But one time, I decided "What the hell, I will fight no matter how hopeless it is, until they finish me!" They kept invading my lands, and I was stuck to three most unimportant provinces. (The one you can train +1 Honor ninjas, and 2 other left of it.)
Then you know what happened? The storm has ended. Warlord Edition is not imbalanced like the first version of the game, so most of the time the clans exhaust each other until they don't have enough armies to gain anything anymore. (Or I was lucky, I don't know)
Then I started to retake all the provinces again, and claimed victory eventually. It was even more enjoyable then a normal win.
I feel your pain though, that annoying two-front battle once forced me to ban my "No Warrior monk with Oda" rule too :bow:
I think I will try to win with Ashi's only when I get home. Unfortunately I think it will be easy because we are now old and know all the tricks...
ReluctantSamurai
12-09-2015, 15:42
Unfortunately I think it will be easy because we are now old and know all the tricks...
I don't think I've ever played an Oda 1580 campaign I could call 'easy'. Confident that I could beat back the hordes, but never easy:creep:
Unfortunately, my last Oda 1580 campaign (I called it Nobunaga's Ambition) has been lost to the Matrix because when I made the switch from ImageShack to PhotoBucket, I failed to move my screen shots over:shame:
That one was THE most intense campaign I've ever had in STW. Beset on all sides by multiple stack attacks on almost every turn...sometimes as many as 5000 per attack~:eek: I barely held on several occasions, and if I had to exchange Samurai Archers for my Teppo, I don't think I would have.....
I don't think I've ever played an Oda 1580 campaign I could call 'easy'. Confident that I could beat back the hordes, but never easy:creep:
Unfortunately, my last Oda 1580 campaign (I called it Nobunaga's Ambition) has been lost to the Matrix because when I made the switch from ImageShack to PhotoBucket, I failed to move my screen shots over:shame:
That one was THE most intense campaign I've ever had in STW. Beset on all sides by multiple stack attacks on almost every turn...sometimes as many as 5000 per attack~:eek: I barely held on several occasions, and if I had to exchange Samurai Archers for my Teppo, I don't think I would have.....
Oh, I don't know.. I recently started playing STW again, and somehow the game seems much easier for me now. I remember I barely held the Mongol Horde 14 years ago.. Now I almost destroy them in few turns. I always struggle with holding line, now I anticipate AI's moves much correctly.
I think I remember Nobunaga'a Ambition. Too bad you lost the pics. Have you tried looking web.archive.org? You can find many forgotten websites there.
As ODA, I tend to not use Ashigarus any more than I do with the other clans ( except perhaps for garrison troops ).
I find Ashigaru Spearmen useful as general combat troops, but only for as long as the Armour and/or Weapons upgrade/s that they have, are better than the troops they are fighting.
If the AI uses them, then I try to match mine directly against the AI's ( I find it helps ). The AI often uses them for chasing Mounted Archers, so I have mostly given up on using MA's as Skirmish units as a result, ( the player should not try this though, as you tend to lose track of the rest of the battle... ) ! Generally ( all clans ), I try to use 1/2 Teppo units ( particularly Muskets ), but I often lose them with little effect caused, unless they are engaging other Teppo units. IMHO they tend to "defend" better than they "attack" ( i.e. are more useful in a defensive battle than an attacking one ).
I do not really use the "clan bonus" troop types ( of any clan ), any more than I would use them with other clans, after the early stages of a campaign ; as I like to build larger armies in a paricular way ( pattern ). I will though, "doctor" this, to match any opposing army/ies ( as best as I can ). Each to his/her own...
ReluctantSamurai
12-11-2015, 02:01
IMHO they tend to "defend" better than they "attack"
The trick is to keep them in three rows behind two groups of spears (I say spears rather than swords because the AI spots them and likes to attack with horse). This is where using Ashi is a benefit because Teppo are faster than Yari Samurai...Ashi can keep pace. You need reasonably level terrain...stop the Ashi just ahead of your Teppo...when the Teppo are ready (and with fire-at-will off & loose formation), quickly retreat the Ashi behind the Teppo, close ranks and wait for the range arrow to stop blinking. Enable fire-at-will and the entire three lines lets loose with a volley (unlike normal operation where the back line is always reloading). Very few units can withstand losing half their numbers from that first volley...even monks usually turn tail and run~:wave:
I do not really use the "clan bonus" troop types ( of any clan ), any more than I would use them with other clans
There are several clans where you are missing out, IMHO. Mori can train Monks at almost the same cost as YS, but the difference in quality is huge. Especially when starting out, Mori provinces are p@$$-poor and Monks allow you to get more from fewer troops. The same can be said for Shimazu and his NoDachi...the best shock troops in the game. As Oda, Ashi do quite well into mid-game especially when defending bridges. Takeda, with his cavalry bonus is a blessing for the entire game, especially for Heavy Cavalry.
So basically, clan troop bonuses have the biggest impact at the start of a campaign when koku is tight...except for Takeda...because cavalry are the most expensive units in the game.
I have mostly given up on using MA's as Skirmish units as a result
I find this puzzling~:confused: How many times have you found yourself cursing at the screen because those damn Takeda Cavalry Archers are chewing up your expensive Monks for breakfast, and without enough Yari Cav there's nothing you can do about it? I always have at least 3 or 4 CA's in any army especially when defending. I set them well ahead of my main force with a YC escort (to intercept any enemy YC), and skirmish the hell out of the approaching enemy. It's especially effective when the AI tries one of its flanking bum-rushes because there are always stragglers to pick off and you are often getting flanking fire or rear fire, doing huge amounts of damage, to say nothing of reducing morale. I can reduce attacker numbers typically by 10-20% and sometimes much more than that.
Cavalry Archers are my favorite STW unit and it carried over into RTW where my favorite factions were the horse archer ones.
My suggestion is to set up custom battles and practice. That's how I learned to take Teppo on the offensive and make them work.~:smoking:
The trick is to keep them in three rows behind two groups of spears ... stop the Ashi just ahead of your Teppo...when the Teppo are ready (and with fire-at-will off & loose formation), quickly retreat the Ashi behind the Teppo, close ranks and wait for the range arrow to stop blinking. Enable fire-at-will and the entire three lines lets loose with a volley (unlike normal operation where the back line is always reloading).
Interesting - I'll try that some time. :bow:
There are several clans where you are missing out, IMHO.
I am aware of the "advantages" ~:) - I just restrict my usage of them, as I like my Armies to have a "certain" troop mix whatever the clan... ~:cool:
So basically, clan troop bonuses have the biggest impact at the start of a campaign when koku is tight...
Very true, particularly with Uesugi's Archers and Oda's Ashigaru. :2thumbsup:
I find this puzzling ~:confused: How many times have you found yourself cursing at the screen because those damn Takeda Cavalry Archers are chewing up your expensive Monks for breakfast, and without enough Yari Cav there's nothing you can do about it? I always have at least 3 or 4 CA's in any army especially when defending. I set them well ahead of my main force with a YC escort (to intercept any enemy YC), and skirmish the hell out of the approaching enemy. It's especially effective when the AI tries one of its flanking bum-rushes because there are always stragglers to pick off and you are often getting flanking fire or rear fire, doing huge amounts of damage, to say nothing of reducing morale. I can reduce attacker numbers typically by 10-20% and sometimes much more than that.
I think it's the number of units that helps here. You use 3/4 minimum. I use 1/2 maximum - with 2 usually on different flanks. Your Skirmish method is better ; but I prefer my 2-4 cavalry to be Lancers / Heavy Cavalry. I use MA's as "Medium" cavalry :yes: more so than as Skirmishers... and replace with Heavy Cavalry when I can.
Cavalry Archers are my favorite STW unit and it carried over into RTW where my favorite factions were the horse archer ones.
I guess if I have a favourite unit it is the Lancer, but I like them all really ( except the Teppos... ).
ReluctantSamurai
12-15-2015, 21:13
I prefer my 2-4 cavalry to be Lancers / Heavy Cavalry. I use MA's as "Medium" cavalry more so than as Skirmishers... and replace with Heavy Cavalry when I can.
Better to just use YC as "mediums" in that case:shrug: Cheaper and better unit stats. With the Warlord Edition, Heavy Cav became much less useful and cost effective vs. Naginata Cavalry. Better on the defensive (def7 vs def1) but worse on the attack (atk2 vs atk4, charge bonus 9 vs charge bonus 11). HC will last longer in protracted melee, but NC are better "line-busters".
In any case, the whole point of using CA's is to be disruptive while inflicting casualties, and taking little to no losses to your own. An added benefit is that if enemy cavalry turn to give chase, you have the opportunity to destroy the bulk of the enemy cavalry before the main armies clash...therefore no worries about flanking~D Took me several campaigns to figure this one out, hence the YC escort. If you time it right, you lead enemy cavalry between two lines of YC who close in from the flanks while the CA's wheel around and cap off the trap.
but I like them all really ( except the Teppos... )
Only because you lack sufficient experience with them. I was the same way...hated Teppo. But when I began playing Oda campaigns, especially the 1580 era (my favorite!), I began to appreciate them. Played the Nagashino historical battle over and over until I got the hang of it, then set up some custom battles to try out a few maneuvers like the one I mentioned earlier. Now I don't play without them, though I try not to abuse their use. I use Puzz3D's unit stats for them which tones them down a bit, and never have more than 3 in any defense, or 2 on the attack.
Better to just use YC as "mediums" in that case:shrug:
I do. ~:cool: But sometimes I use a single MA as a form of scout unit in early battles. In latter battles these then get used as "mediums" !
Only because you lack sufficient experience with them.
After winning13 campaigns ( 13 played ), I think I have enough experience...~:)
...never have more than 3 in any defense, or 2 on the attack.
I usually have 1/2 for defense or attack. Generally I attempt to match the opposing Army/ies here, but limit myself to a max. of 2.
[ I am more likely to use 1 when attacking. ]
ReluctantSamurai
12-20-2015, 13:09
Didn't mean to insinuate that you lacked STW experience...just experience at using teppo on the attack:creep:
but I often lose them with little effect caused, unless they are engaging other Teppo units. IMHO they tend to "defend" better than they "attack" ( i.e. are more useful in a defensive battle than an attacking one
I've lost battles for various reasons including my own ineptitude. My teppo (talking mostly musket here) at the head count screen following a battle, are almost always at the top of the list (along with Yari Cavalry) while taking minimal casualties. Stout in defense, and on the attack they can blow a hole in an enemy line without having to use shock troops like Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry.:shrug:
I'll throw in some comments here, to broaden the perspective or something...
I've lost battles for various reasons including my own ineptitude. My teppo (talking mostly musket here) at the head count screen following a battle, are almost always at the top of the list (along with Yari Cavalry) while taking minimal casualties. Stout in defense, and on the attack they can blow a hole in an enemy line without having to use shock troops like Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry.:shrug:
You lost me.... Why should one deliberately rely on such (inferior) units when you can use shocktroops to better and greater effect instead, with less effort too. If you can't build/deploy them (the shocktroops or other units) but only teppos instead, then you have done something seriously wrong to begin with. The teppos are inferior to both Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry (and will lose to both, 1 vs 1, which ultimately proves the point), so I will - I would say naturally - use those instead, because of the fact. Using teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units. Regardless of anything, I would imagine.
- A
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BTW, teppos are like any other ranged units, treat them accordingly. No special skills needed. The only thing they do require is love/fascination for the unit, enough to bother with it...
ReluctantSamurai
12-21-2015, 02:47
Why should one deliberately rely on such (inferior) units when you can use shocktroops to better and greater effect instead, with less effort too.
Others may consider musket as 'inferior' troops (and you obviously do), but I do not. As someone who uses "shock" troops with regularity, IMHO on level to rolling terrain, Musket will blow a hole in enemy lines easier and more cheaply than Nodachi or NC. Both the foot and mounted shock troops get the job done...but how many are left standing at the end of the battle? Nodachi are especially vulnerable to missile fire and are taking damage before they even hit enemy lines. NC are certainly adept at breaking enemy formations, but due to their extremely low defensive value, you cannot allow them to engage in protracted melee or their number dwindle quickly. They also tire very easy in muddy or snow conditions.
If you can't build/deploy them (the shocktroops or other units) but only teppos instead, then you have done something seriously wrong to begin with.
Excuse me but this discussion is primarily about Oda's campaigns, particularly the 1580 era where you are beset right from the outset by overwhelming numbers and there is no time to build the infrastructure necessary for NoDachi or NC. Ashi is what you start with, and your campaign lives or dies by them.
The teppos are inferior to both Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry (and will lose to both, 1 vs 1, which ultimately proves the point
Strawman argument. Any missile or skirmisher unit will lose 1 vs 1 against infantry or cavalry:inquisitive: That doesn't mean they are inferior. They are support units that inflict casualties from a distance with little to no casualties to themselves. That is their role.
Using teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units.
Your opinion which you are certainly entitled to. IMHO, there is no better unit for defending bridges than musket, and there is no better unit (when terrain is favorable) for punching holes in enemy lines than musket. As for intrinsic value...there is no other unit in the game more capable of reducing enemy morale than musket.
From the archives courtesy of Puzz3D (my boldface editing):
A unit suffers a temporary -2 morale penalty when it sustains one or more casualties inflicted by archers. This morale penalty is -6 when the casualties are caused by teppo. There is an additional temporary morale penalty for the ratio of the number of men lost in a combat cycle compared to the number of men in the unit in the previous cycle. There is also a permanent morale penalty for the ratio of decimation of a unit compared to its original size (-2 for 10% casualties, -8 for 50% casualties and -12 for 80% casualties). In addition, teppo have more penetrating power vs armor than archers, so are better against heavily armored units such as naginata and heavy cav than are archers. Teppo also take 4 hitpoints off the tashio if he gets hit whereas archers only remove 1 hitpoint. Taisho's have 6 hitpoints minimum + additional hitpoints for good health. I think 25 is the maximum number of hitpoints for a very healthy tashio.
One cannot ignore the permanent morale penalty for unit decimation ratio. If a musket unit gets off a full volley (all three lines firing at once), an enemy unit can lose between 25-50% of its numbers right there. The morale hit is huge and I've seen high-morale monks turn tail and run after taking a couple of volleys like this.
Waste of time and cash? Not in my opinion:bow:
Didn't mean to insinuate that you lacked STW experience...just experience at using teppo on the attack:creep:
OK. However, my experience level is the same ( approx. ) for both, as I nearly always use them. My efforts in the later Campaign's battles went somewhat "pear shaped". Whether this was me playing worse or the AI playing better I do not know, but I did win the battles concerned. Perhaps I was a little rusty with them...
My teppo (talking mostly musket here) at the head count screen following a battle, are almost always at the top of the list (along with Yari Cavalry) while taking minimal casualties. Stout in defense, and on the attack they can blow a hole in an enemy line without having to use shock troops like Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry.:shrug:
Sounds like your teppo are more likely to stand their ground than mine ( when attacked ). Perhaps I do not defend them well enough, or maybe my opposing attackers are braver than your attackers ( or both )...
I'll throw in some comments here, to broaden the perspective or something...
You lost me.... Why should one deliberately rely on such (inferior) units when you can use shocktroops to better and greater effect instead, with less effort too. If you can't build/deploy them (the shocktroops or other units) but only teppos instead, then you have done something seriously wrong to begin with. The teppos are inferior to both Nodachi or Naginata Cavalry (and will lose to both, 1 vs 1, which ultimately proves the point), so I will - I would say naturally - use those instead, because of the fact. Using teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units. Regardless of anything, I would imagine.
Generally speaking, I think I agree with most of this. Makes for a better game too...
As someone who uses "shock" troops with regularity, IMHO on level to rolling terrain, Musket will blow a hole in enemy lines easier and more cheaply than Nodachi or NC.
I disagree. IMHO they skirmish well against other Teppo, but are usually outranged by Archers ( particularly when attacking ). They certaily are not as efficient as described ( re the end of battle results ), in any of my games. Your tactics IMHO must be superior to ours ( or mine at least ). :2thumbsup:
Excuse me but this discussion is primarily about Oda's campaigns, particularly the 1580 era where you are beset right from the outset by overwhelming numbers and there is no time to build the infrastructure necessary for NoDachi or NC. Ashi is what you start with, and your campaign lives or dies by them.
True.
Any missile or skirmisher unit will lose 1 vs 1 against infantry or cavalry:inquisitive: That doesn't mean they are inferior. They are support units that inflict casualties from a distance with little to no casualties to themselves. That is their role.
Also true, but as previouly described they appear to be superior troops, and in my ( limited ) experience, they are far from that.
IMHO, there is no better unit for defending bridges than musket,
Very true. Best use of them. :2thumbsup:
and there is no better unit (when terrain is favorable) for punching holes in enemy lines than musket.
I'll take Heavy cavalry for that ( IDC ) I think....
As for intrinsic value...there is no other unit in the game more capable of reducing enemy morale than musket.
Quite possible ( other than Warrior Monks ).
A unit suffers a temporary -2 morale penalty when it sustains one or more casualties inflicted by archers. This morale penalty is -6 when the casualties are caused by teppo. There is an additional temporary morale penalty for the ratio of the number of men lost in a combat cycle compared to the number of men in the unit in the previous cycle. There is also a permanent morale penalty for the ratio of decimation of a unit compared to its original size (-2 for 10% casualties, -8 for 50% casualties and -12 for 80% casualties). In addition, teppo have more penetrating power vs armor than archers, so are better against heavily armored units such as naginata and heavy cav than are archers. Teppo also take 4 hitpoints off the tashio if he gets hit whereas archers only remove 1 hitpoint. Taisho's have 6 hitpoints minimum + additional hitpoints for good health. I think 25 is the maximum number of hitpoints for a very healthy tashio.
Well, I've not come across most of that information before. Very interesting...
One cannot ignore the permanent morale penalty for unit decimation ratio.
Yes one can. It's all down to the teppo tactics really, and you seem to have mastered them. I ( for one ) have not.
The morale hit is huge and I've seen high-morale monks turn tail and run after taking a couple of volleys like this.
That's normal ( Stone-Paper-Scissors effect ).
If a musket unit gets off a full volley (all three lines firing at once), an enemy unit can lose between 25-50% of its numbers right there.
That requires allowing the enemy unit to get quite close before firing ( and deselecting Fire at Will and Skirmish mode ). I always find that such micro managing gets you into trouble when the AI launches multiple attacks and you deal with one and miss the others ( similar to my MA comment/s ). If you can handle it then fine.
IMHO we all play the game differently. Many styles and methods are possible. I for instance, always use the Japanese Formations ( with some minor tweaks ) many do not.
Each of us finds a "winning" method, and then proberly stick to it as best we can. Each to his own. ~:cool:
I’ll try to be brief...
Others may consider musket as 'inferior' troops (and you obviously do), but I do not. As someone who uses "shock" troops with regularity, IMHO on level to rolling terrain, Musket will blow a hole in enemy lines easier and more cheaply than Nodachi or NC. Both the foot and mounted shock troops get the job done...but how many are left standing at the end of the battle? Nodachi are especially vulnerable to missile fire and are taking damage before they even hit enemy lines. NC are certainly adept at breaking enemy formations, but due to their extremely low defensive value, you cannot allow them to engage in protracted melee or their number dwindle quickly. They also tire very easy in muddy or snow conditions.
All this can be true... No arguments there... I also note that you are quick to point out non-optimal circumstances for them troops, save the teppo (who in contrast seems to operate in prime conditions here), who probably have more non-optimal circumstances possible to it then any other unit of the game. A detail well worth mentioning, I think.
Excuse me but this discussion is primarily about Oda's campaigns, particularly the 1580 era where you are beset right from the outset by overwhelming numbers and there is no time to build the infrastructure necessary for NoDachi or NC. Ashi is what you start with, and your campaign lives or dies by them.
True... And so, in response to the original question here: "When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?" My answer... "No... I won't... I will use samurai (various kinds)... In 1580... Oda... On expert... Default unit size... And I will win, anyhow...". But that is just me... I won't make that claim for anyone else... Its possible, and that is probably the important part here...
Ashi is what you start with, and your campaign lives or dies by them.
Personally... No... It don't... For others, perhaps, I can’t tell... It utterly depends on personal skill and fighting/playing-style... I don’t believe Ashis are the thing that ultimately will determine the outcome of the campaign... Nah, its probably your own fighting-abilities and army-builds that will determine the outcome of that scenario.
Strawman argument. Any missile or skirmisher unit will lose 1 vs 1 against infantry or cavalry:inquisitive: That doesn't mean they are inferior. They are support units that inflict casualties from a distance with little to no casualties to themselves. That is their role.
No, it's not a strawman argument... You said it yourself... “Any missile or skirmisher unit will lose 1 vs 1 against infantry or cavalry" (Samurai archers may still potentially beat ashis). ...Exactly, once they are out of their role/element, they become hopelessly weak, as this example illustrates mercilessly. Teppos more so then anything else in the entire game, including archers. They are inferior due to fact that they will indeed not survive on their own – this utterly regardless what unit that catches them (all that is left is to run...). When robbed of all, or some, of the requirements they typically need to operate efficiently (or meaningfully), they (the teppos) become exceptionally weak and toothless in comparison to ALL other units. In this state they offer little other support in battle (becoming weaker out of your element is standard, but its the magnitude of weakness in their specific case that does strike me as significant and exceptional here). And, they can only fulfill their role, if enough of the preconditions materializes. That makes up a typically, and generally, weak and inferior troop in my assessment, any day. Its hyperspecialized, to a fault essentially...
IMHO, there is no better unit for defending bridges than musket, and there is no better unit (when terrain is favorable) for punching holes in enemy lines than musket. As for intrinsic value...there is no other unit in the game more capable of reducing enemy morale than musket.
Possibly... You (yet again) typically assume you will do this fight on your terms and everything will be in control and in optimal conditions. In a real, tough and close battle it probably won't be, and then the teppos are more likly than any other unit in the game to suffer from that very reality. They can clearly not survive on their own, they need support and safety, safety that only other units can provide, this circumstance ties up other troops too that could have otherwise been used to do damage to the enemy – freely. They are basically inferior to ALL other units in this very regard as ALL other units will essentially slaughter them if they ever catch them without that constant protection. That is no superior troop, its an inferior and hyperspecialized one on general terms. Once caught out of its narrow element/function it quickly disintegrates, regardless of anything essentially, all it takes is contact with any hostile unit and its all over, fast....
From the archives courtesy of Puzz3D (my boldface editing): ... ... ...
One cannot ignore the permanent morale penalty for unit decimation ratio. If a musket unit gets off a full volley (all three lines firing at once), an enemy unit can lose between 25-50% of its numbers right there. The morale hit is huge and I've seen high-morale monks turn tail and run after taking a couple of volleys like this.
I do not doubt any of these numbers, what I question here, are the overall value of it - having typical and general circumstances in mind, not the optimal ones. As in the rule not the exception in mind... How much does all these specialized and rather particular bonuses matter then in the grand scheme of things? In any given battle? In your average campaign? Some obviously... But will it matter enough? Enough to compensate for all the weaknesses that these units (teppos) clearly have and bring? ...?... You basically say: “yes, it enough to compensate for all the weaknesses, its a cheap and good unit” (roughly). I say, “no its not enough to cover for all the weaknesses that they have, its nowhere close to even things out... Its an inferior and hyperspecialized troop, because of that very reality”. And there we are... It seems. I obviously wont agree with your overall assessment of teppos, rather I openly disagree and challenge it – clearly offering another take instead - much for reasons outlined (some anyways).
At the end of the day RS... If you want them teppos – by all means use them.
Its not my problem and call. It is yours. I just offer some perspective to stuff
I see posted here (when time allows, and I am interested enough)...
- A
ReluctantSamurai
12-22-2015, 06:55
Makes for a better game too
And what, exactly, is a 'better' game?
I always find that such micro managing gets you into trouble when the AI launches multiple attacks and you deal with one and miss the others
I enjoy the micro-management. Certainly, on occasion, I get in trouble with my attention elsewhere, but that almost always involves my Cavalry Archers getting caught by enemy YC...
IMHO we all play the game differently. Many styles and methods are possible.
It's just a game to be enjoyed on an individual level.:bow:
When you are oda, do you actually use a lot of yari ashigaru?" My answer... "No... I won't... I will use samurai (various kinds)... In 1580... Oda... On expert... Default unit size... And I will win, anyhow..."
I'd like to know how you pull that one off:stare: The Takeda/Imagawa attack comes in Mino within the first several turns and Oda starts with only a few Yari Samurai, one cavalry unit (IIRC), several Samurai Archers, and the rest are Ashi. There is no time to train samurai and no place else to get them. You lose that battle, and you might as well reload because your soft, undermanned interior is blown wide open.
save the teppo (who in contrast seems to operate in prime conditions here)
Never said there aren't conditions (rain) where the effectiveness of musket is reduced. I've fought plenty of times with them in rain and snow...you have to adjust your expectations accordingly. When I can, I keep units in reserve, so that if the weather is severe enough, I withdraw the teppo and replace them with an appropriate unit.
A detail well worth mentioning, I think.
For STW vets, I'd assumed that rain was obvious for any missile unit...and on several occasions (even putting the comment in boldface) I stated that on the attack, terrain should be flat to rolling (on defense you can pick your spots for them including such mountainous terrain like Shinano).
In this state they offer little other support in battle
It is a strawman argument because by definition, a support unit is just that...they do not operate alone and their role is to weaken the enemy before melee commences. If your missile units are offering 'little' support in battle, then you are not using them properly.
Possibly... You (yet again) typically assume you will do this fight on your terms and everything will be in control and in optimal conditions. In a real, tough and close battle it probably won't be, and then the teppos are more likly than any other unit in the game to suffer from that very reality.
An assumption on your part, not mine. Things go wrong in battle. The real skill is in minimizing mistakes, and recovering from the ones you make...and I can certainly lay claim to making more than a few....
They are basically inferior to ALL other units in this very regard as ALL other units will essentially slaughter them if they ever catch them without that constant protection
Once caught out of its narrow element/function it quickly disintegrates, regardless of anything essentially, all it takes is contact with any hostile unit and its all over, fast
They do not shoot until every bullet is expended (the exception would be bridge defense against multiple stacks) but rather severely damage a section of the enemy line so that the units screening them can be freed up for exploitation. They make it easier for the rest of the army by reducing enemy numbers substantially....
Since I've started using musket on a regular basis (at the expert level) only twice that I can recall, has any unit ever caught my musket in melee. If that happens, you've made a mistake.
having typical and general circumstances in mind, not the optimal ones.
You keep repeating this like a mantra. Have no idea what you consider typical/general/not optimal~:confused: All I can say is that I fight with musket in all types of terrain, in all kinds of weather except thunderstorms, both in defense and on the attack, and they consistently top the list in kills at the end of the battle. Only my YC typically get more because they are the ones chasing down routers.
I say, “no its not enough to cover for all the weaknesses that they have, its nowhere close to even things out... Its an inferior and hyperspecialized troop, because of that very reality”. And there we are... It seems.
And there we are. You don't like them...I do. We will just have to agree to disagree on whether what they bring to a fight is enough to compensate for their weaknesses. I heard the same thing about horse-archer factions in RTW...too much micro-management, too weak in melee to stand on their own, etc, etc, etc.
If you want them teppos – by all means use them. Its not my problem and call. It is yours.
It's not a problem at all. Rather the opposite. I like having them in any army, and accept the challenge of using them to greatest effect. They've won many a battle for me:bow:
I'd like to add a couple more points to an already overly long post:dizzy2:
You base your entire argument that teppo are worthless on two things: a)they are weak in melee and therefore need protection from other troops b)there are battlefield conditions that lessen their effectiveness. As to a)...they are a support unit and the nature of support units is that they require protection to do what they do. That is true for any era of warfare. As to b)...virtually every unit in STW has shortcomings dictated by weather or terrain. Cavalry is severely hampered by mountains and forested areas. Troops wearing heavy armor tire easily in mud and snow. Infantry are at a distinct disadvantage when terrain permits cavalry to operate freely. Etc, etc, etc....As general, you try to pick your spots to maximize your troops effectiveness. Not always possible, but that's warfare.
Finally, taking a page from real history, if gunpowder units were so weak and worthless, why did they spell the doom of the samurai? Because guns could be mass produced...training was minimal so that any farmer (ashi) could be taught to use one effectively...and their killing power on the battle field was more lethal than bow, spear, or sword. I rest my case.....
And what, exactly, is a 'better' game?
This is argument for arguments sake talk. Forget it...
I enjoy the micro-management.
IMHO - I think we all do to some extent or another, but there are usually limits that we apply...
Certainly, on occasion, I get in trouble with my attention elsewhere, but that almost always involves my Cavalry Archers getting caught by enemy YC...
I usually get my MA's chased ( and sometimes caught ) by Yari Ashigaru...
It is a strawman argument because by definition, a support unit is just that...they do not operate alone and their role is to weaken the enemy before melee commences. If your missile units are offering 'little' support in battle, then you are not using them properly.
I'm not sure how your tactics make Teppo a "support" unit ; particularly as they need support themselves ( as stated previously )...
They do not shoot until every bullet is expended (the exception would be bridge defense against multiple stacks) but rather severely damage a section of the enemy line so that the units screening them can be freed up for exploitation. They make it easier for the rest of the army by reducing enemy numbers substantially....
If they were as good as suggested, I think the AI would use them this way more. As stated before, you appear to be rather adept at using Teppo. Not everyone is ( or is willing to practise as you have ).
You keep repeating this like a mantra. Have no idea what you consider typical/general/not optimal~:confused: All I can say is that I fight with musket in all types of terrain, in all kinds of weather except thunderstorms, both in defense and on the attack, and they consistently top the list in kills at the end of the battle. Only my YC typically get more because they are the ones chasing down routers.
See previous answer. Typical/general/not optimal refers ( IMHO ) to other players view of Teppo use. Your use is different...
And there we are. You don't like them...I do. We will just have to agree to disagree on whether what they bring to a fight is enough to compensate for their weaknesses.
So, is there any point to further discussion ?
You base your entire argument that teppo are worthless on two things: a)they are weak in melee and therefore need protection from other troops b)there are battlefield conditions that lessen their effectiveness. As to a)...they are a support unit and the nature of support units is that they require protection to do what they do. That is true for any era of warfare. As to b)...virtually every unit in STW has shortcomings dictated by weather or terrain. Cavalry is severely hampered by mountains and forested areas. Troops wearing heavy armor tire easily in mud and snow. Infantry are at a distinct disadvantage when terrain permits cavalry to operate freely. Etc, etc, etc....As general, you try to pick your spots to maximize your troops effectiveness. Not always possible, but that's warfare.You have already agreed usage is a personal thing - so why comment further. Argument for arguments sake again (IMHO ).
Finally, taking a page from real history, if gunpowder units were so weak and worthless, why did they spell the doom of the samurai? Because guns could be mass produced...training was minimal so that any farmer (ashi) could be taught to use one effectively...and their killing power on the battle field was more lethal than bow, spear, or sword. I rest my case.....
On the face of it, very true. But is not the real reason that there were many, many more Ashigaru than Samurai ? The final end of the Samurai came only with masses of "Ashigaru" ( with more "modern" rifles )...
ReluctantSamurai
12-24-2015, 00:54
I'm not sure how your tactics make Teppo a "support" unit ; particularly as they need support themselves ( as stated previously )
Support means that if you fielded an entire army of nothing but teppo, they will likely lose every battle because they will eventually run out of map to skirmish and get caught in melee. But with proper screening, they can potentially devastate enemy formations, making the task of winning the battle easier for the rest of the army...ergo support.
If they were as good as suggested, I think the AI would use them this way more.
They were actually overpowered. Read here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?89610-Gunpowder
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?44063-Was-it-really-this-bad
In MP games, the number of gunpowder units was restricted to 4 in any given army, and those players were some of the best in the game here at the org, which should tell you something about the power of guns. I play with Puzz3D's revised stats (he was a member of the beta testing team) which you will find in the first link.
The final end of the Samurai came only with masses of "Ashigaru"
Actually, the demise of the samurai was more due to social upheaval, Westernization if you will, of which the matchlock/flintlock was a part. I was only referring to the battlefield.
So, is there any point to further discussion ?
Fine. I can shut the hell up and we can go back to seeing posts in here once or twice a year...:creep:
This is argument for arguments sake talk. Forget it
No, it isn't. Honest question as to what makes for a 'better' STW game.
What I always fail to understand is why "people" persist in quoting previous inconcise "answers", rather than directly answering the exact question put.
:creep:
Support means that if you fielded an entire army of nothing but teppo, they will likely lose every battle because they will eventually run out of map to skirmish and get caught in melee. But with proper screening, they can potentially devastate enemy formations, making the task of winning the battle easier for the rest of the army...ergo support.
IMHO a support unit is a unit that aids the main fighting unit/s. I can see your logic here, but I feel that if the main attack thrust comes from the Teppo, then the non Teppo units are the support units. This is particularly evidenced by the Teppo unit/s themselves being supported by Yari units ( as support units are not usually ( IMHO ) supported themselves. It remains however, a matter of personal perspective.
Actually, the demise of the samurai was more due to social upheaval, Westernization if you will, of which the matchlock/flintlock was a part. I was only referring to the battlefield.
As was I... To add to my previous reply ; what of " Isandhlwana" or "Little Big Horn" ?? "Rifles" ( and "modern Rifles" at that ) failed there, ergo Teppo are not the "main factor" here. That is Generalship ( and troop Honour / Valour ) ; both of which apply whichever units you choose / use. They were certainly the decisive factor in the battles herein noted...
Fine. I can shut the hell up and we can go back to seeing posts in here once or twice a year...:creep:
Ah, so this is talk for talks sake ? ( Rather close to argument for arguments sake IMHO ). You have already stated "We will just have to agree to disagree", so further comments are ( to some degree ) rather futile.
No, it isn't. Honest question as to what makes for a 'better' STW game.
Ok, maybe... However, I have no wish to expand this "discussion" beyond the original topic... Sorry !!!
ReluctantSamurai
12-24-2015, 22:20
what of " Isandhlwana" or "Little Big Horn" ?? "Rifles" ( and "modern Rifles" at that ) failed there, ergo Teppo are not the "main factor" here. That is Generalship ( and troop Honour / Valour ) ; both of which apply whichever units you choose / use. They were certainly the decisive factor in the battles herein noted
And you conveniently left out Nagashino (which pretty much ended the Takeda clan as a Shogunate power-broker), the use of matchlock guns by the Ikko-Ikki in the three battles of Nagashima, and the use of teppo aboard ships in the two Battles of Kizugawaguchi. The most decisive was, of course, Nagashino. Guns had their role....
It remains however, a matter of personal perspective.
Ahhh...argument for the sake of argument~;) Whatever perspective you choose, in STW the teppo was most definitely not this: "teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units".
Why else would they be restricted in MP, and be subject to stat-tweaking because they were overpowered? (If you read through the links provided)
And you conveniently left out Nagashino (which pretty much ended the Takeda clan as a Shogunate power-broker), the use of matchlock guns by the Ikko-Ikki in the three battles of Nagashima, and the use of teppo aboard ships in the two Battles of Kizugawaguchi. The most decisive was, of course, Nagashino. Guns had their role....
No I was not !!! :furious3: I was quoting battles were the Bows and "Spears" beat "Rifles" ; no more and no less !! Stop jumping to unjustified conclusions !
"teppo ashigaru (or any ashigaru) have no intrinsic value, they are poorer units on general terms, thus one would think it obvious that it is basically a waste of limited cash and slots to bother with them when compared to other units".
Whose quote was this ? It was NOT mine, and therefore should not be used as a rebuttal against me. :crazy:
Why else would they be restricted in MP, and be subject to stat-tweaking because they were overpowered? (If you read through the links provided)
Why do you not appear to accept that you are a good general and that Teppo alone are not the main source of your success ??? :wall:
This conversation is over. ~:wave:
I'll try to make this real simple...
The only way we can fight/damage/destroy a teppo-unit is to attack it. It is the only way. And yes, we are actually allowed to attack it, as much as we want. Now, we can't stare it to death or wait it to death or some such BS. We have too attack it, and that means close combat (with the exception of archers, who can fire too), there are no other alternative ways to fight it. Once we do attack a teppo-unit, and get to close combat (including the archers here) - its finished. Every time (a 1 vs 1 will illustrate that)... If its declared a "support unit", "ranged unit" or "regular unit", is entirely irrelevant as all of the above are still valid and true all the same. The overall circumstance is valid to ANY unit. In order to fight/damage/destroy it, we must attack it somehow. Period.
Ergo, teppo-units can/will only function properly in battle if the enemy allows them to operate freely (disregarding weather-requirements and penalties here. And bridges). Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do. Again, if it comes to close combat, they are finished. Again, every unit will kill them (teppos) in combat once caught.
If that still sounds like a good unit to you, then you wouldn't know good, even if it jumped up and kicked you in the face. Just saying. Anyhow, I was basically done with all this in my previous post, more so as of this one. If you can't or won't get it at this stage, you probably never will... I'm out of here...
- A
... teppo-units can/will only function properly in battle if the enemy allows them to operate freely (disregarding weather-requirements and penalties here. And bridges). Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do. Again, if it comes to close combat, they are finished. Again, every unit will kill them (teppos) in combat once caught.
This matches my ( limited ) experience to date... :2thumbsup:
ReluctantSamurai
12-26-2015, 19:15
DEB8
~:smoking: Chill.
We're talking about a 15 year old game...nothing that really matters, but hopefully fun to still talk about. If I offended you...my apologies:shame:
As to me being a good general...against the AI maybe. Never played MP (got here too late for that) so I wouldn't make the claim:shrug:
there are no other alternative ways to fight it. Once we do attack a teppo-unit, and get to close combat (including the archers here) - its finished.
Very true and obvious.
Once that "permission" is withdrawn by the enemy, the teppo-unit can do little else but to flee, once it become targeted for attack - this will be true regardless of the unit attacking them. Any (healthy enough) unit will do.
And of course I just sit there having a cup of tea while you waltz in to decimate my guns:crazy: As a user of musket on a regular basis, I can pretty much deny anyone "permission" to engage my teppo in melee. There are various formations involving teppo and their screen (which anyone with interest can google) that, if used properly, insure no melee unit reaches the guns (unless you completely fall asleep). Once I gained enough experience with those formations, only twice that I can recall has the AI ever gotten to my musket. This is over hundreds of battles fought using teppo, all on the expert setting. It's tried many, many times, but only twice succeeded.
A few quotes from a 2007 discussion about dealing with guns:
[Phred]
The first time I came up against an all gunpowder army was when I had nearly conquered the map and there was one rebel province with an all arquebus army. So I charged in with all heavy calvalry and was pretty shocked when the first volley decimated the units leading the charge. I won the battle, but I'll never forget that lead heavy calvary unit evaporating before my eyes.
I have found that an army with 4-5 musketeers in a good defensive location is nigh unbeatable
[Togakure]
Last night I played the opening of the 1580 campaign as the Shimazu and attacked Hizen (Tokugawa) on the very first turn using every unit with which I could reach that province (I did attack by sea from Satsuma, with Daimyo Yoshihisa commanding). In this scenario you have an inferior army, but two arquebusiers. I chose a fine day to attack, and used a classic Shimazu strategy. Because the Tokugawa outnumbered me considerably, they attacked as defenders. I faked a retreat to the rise behind me, and waited until they were very close before ordering my two-row-deep guns to fire on Honda Heihachiro's Yari Cav Taisho unit and the one other Yari cav unit. He was killed instantly, and after a very short engagement, his army routed. Despite a much smaller army with no cavalry, against an army with twice as many archers, two yari cav units and 3 ninja units, the Shimazu won with relative ease. Try it. It's a good battle for illustrating how guns can turn the tide against an otherwise superior army.
[Veho Nex]
No matter how experienced i am i always loose 80% of my army when fighting with or against arbusque
Not quite the walk in the park that -A makes it seem:rolleyes:
If that still sounds like a good unit to you, then you wouldn't know good, even if it jumped up and kicked you in the face.
Insulting, but hey, the only way the two of us could settle it would be to go head-to-head~D Too bad MP is no longer available~:smoking:
At the risk of repeating myself....back in the hey-day of MP around here, there were some exceptional players using guns in STW. Some were so adept at using them, that it became a borderline cheat (much like the 'super-Ashi' bug), and any MP army was restricted to a maximum of 4. That carries more weight with me than your disdain, along with my own personal experience at using them.
"Apology" accepted ( I guess ).
Despite all of the quotes you have listed and posted. Axalons comments still match my very limited experience to date... :shrug:
End of. ~:wave:
[ For Drone : Should this post not be closed too ?? ]
DEB8,
I have nowhere as exhausted and unwanted relation to RS as I have with some other members of this forum (of certain closed threads, for instance). I mean, I barely know the guy... I just don't buy his assessment, analysis and evaluation of teppos (along with how he has distinguished and used "strawmen"-argument(s)). Other then that I have no problems with RS. We simply don't agree on this stuff. What I had to say about it, I have already said. And I imagine the same is probably true for him (RS)... I don't think there is much more too it...
Btw, Droner is not a moderator in this section... He can do diddly here...
- A
ReluctantSamurai
12-27-2015, 20:43
Dunno why the thread should be closed~:confused: But last word anyway....
Axalons comments still match my very limited experience to date
That doesn't make his assessment correct. But at least you admit to having limited experience with them~;)
To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
When STW was released, unit stats (including teppo) were reasonably balanced and everyone was happy with the results. MP games were numerous and sometimes epic, with several players reaching legendary status for their gameplay. Then along came WE/MI (v1.02) with the introduction of new units + the Mongols, and everything got whacky. Gunpower was increased 3-fold (amongst other bad decisions by the devs) and the result on MP games was dramatic. They basically became gunfights with players bringing 8 WM & 8 Musket or 8 Cav & 8 Musket...etc, etc...and if you didn't bring likewise, you got annihilated. The term "Gun Monkey" became popular.
There were two results coming from the v1.02 changes: the first was the Rule of 4---you could not include more than 4 of any unit type in your army; the second was a call for a re-balancing of unit stats more in line with the original game. There were several from the Org community that participated, and v1.03 came into being. Many players did not like the revision because it toned down guns to a more reasonable level. Still a dangerous unit to deal with, but no longer the battlefield sweeper it was in 1.02.
In the words of Puzz3D, who was the Org member tasked with re-working gun stats:(posted to save you time digging in the archives)
Although the infantry rush has a better chance of success now because it can actually reach and engage the musket in h2h, the early monk rush should still fail as long as you have enough front line units to hold up the monks while your muskets shoot. The important thing is that heavy cav, naginata cav, monks and no-dachi units should be able to charge and engage an unprotected musket in h2h without routing just from the gun fire.
.....the musket now tends to dominate online games. There are many factors combining to make the musket an unbalanced unit, such as: hold formation being too effective, the defend combat value being too high, units not marching quickly, cavalry hesitating when it charges, lack of a power gradient in the bullet's ballistics, lack of a consensus on kills/volley, lack of a consensus on range, lack of a consensus on reload and the use of maps like ironing board which maximizes the musket's potential. If you play maps with trees on them, the musket looses a lot of it's effectiveness.
The powerful guns are there to stop the infantry rush, and they do that. They stop it cold. However, a consequence is that a few gun units can kill a whole army. That removes any need for the player who wins the gun battle to engage in h2h. So, the dilema is that, if you loose the gun battle, your rush option is effectively removed. The guns eliminate the early rush, and the late rush. You can try to use cavalry to get to the guns, but, if yari infantry are protecting the guns, you won't be successful.
The infantry was slowed down by 25%, but the gun reload was only lengthened by 14%. So, the guns picked up an advantage there against the infantry rush. Also, at power 4, the musk gets about the same kills "on the target unit" that they got in WE/MI v1.0 because accuracy was increased to cut down on backround kills. Archers do better against guns in v1.02 because the gun's armor was reduced, but the archer does not beat the musk. Rain does greatly reduce the effectiveness of the musk, and trees makes them useless.
Muskets dominate the game unless it's raining or the map has lots of trees. A 250 koku musket typically gets anywhere from 60 to 120 kills. If you get 40 to 60 kills with the 300 koku archer, you are doing well. Those two units are about the same price, and they should be closer in kills if you want unrestricted use of guns and still have balance in the game. From what I can see, 4 archers are at a considerable disadvantage to 4 muskets. This means with a 4 gun max you have to take the 4 muskets to maintain parity. I think you need a bit more of a restriction like 2 muskets + 2 arq's max to come into balance with the 4 archers.
There are many other quotes referring to the overpowered nature of guns in STW, from players other than Puzz (I quote him because he spent hundreds of hours re-balancing them for 1.03 and probably understood how they work better than anyone), and for that you can dig into the archives yourself...start about pg 60 and work forward to roughly pg 50 (and besides, it's a fascinating read from the hey-day of STW in 2002).
All-in-all, guns in the hands of an experienced player are still a major force on the battlefield, even using v1.03 stats. And contrary to what Axalon says, they are not easy to kill. Frontal charges are almost always suicide...flanking is still the best option, or...shoot them to pieces if you can.
Droner is not a moderator in this section
If you check the Moderator List, there is noone officially in charge of moderating STW:shrug:
That doesn't make his assessment correct. ...
By that very token, it does not make it false/wrong either... What it does make it, is valid...
To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
I never said "teppos (and ashis) are worthless", that is all on you... I said "they are inferior, to other troops in general" (or some such), and that is hardly the same thing, now is it? No units in STW are utterly worthless. Yet you present your case here as if I did say that. Now that's a strawman if I ever saw one, and I think its pretty poor form too. Do me some justice in the same way I have bothered/tried to do you some.
Next time that is, as I think this topic is done... I know I am, anyways...
- A
ReluctantSamurai
12-29-2015, 05:04
I never said "teppos (and ashis) are worthless", that is all on you
True...poor choice of words.
Now that's a strawman if I ever saw one
Nah...the Gun Monkeys knew what they were doing, and ruined MP in the process.
Do me some justice in the same way I have bothered/tried to do you some.
I guess I'll have to pay attention the next time good jumps up and tries to kick me in the face~D
:bow:
DEB8,
I have nowhere as exhausted and unwanted relation to RS as I have with some other members of this forum (of certain closed threads, for instance). I mean, I barely know the guy... I just don't buy his assessment, analysis and evaluation of teppos (along with how he has distinguished and used "strawmen"-argument(s)). Other then that I have no problems with RS. We simply don't agree on this stuff. What I had to say about it, I have already said. And I imagine the same is probably true for him (RS)... I don't think there is much more too it...
Noted. :2thumbsup:
Btw, Droner is not a moderator in this section... He can do diddly here...
My mistake - sorry ! :embarassed: Still in MTW mode there.... :yes:
But at least you admit to having limited experience with them~;)
Limited ( when compared with yourself... )
To say that teppo (and YA) are worthless units shows a complete lack of understanding of the history of STW.
I ( myself ) never said that. Axalon may ( or may not ) have...
[ It's very confusing ( to one and all ) reading your replies ; if you reply to both myself and Axalon in the same post, without "stating" whom you are quoting. :crazy: ]
If you check the Moderator List, there is noone officially in charge of moderating STW:shrug:
Noted. Sorry ( still in MTW mode there.... ~:) ).
[ Oh, by the way, re all that other stuff you posted : :shrug: :wall: :Zzzz: ]
True...poor choice of words.
I guess I'll have to pay attention the next time good jumps up and tries to kick me in the face~D
:bow:
The end ( please ). :quiet: ~:wave:
ReluctantSamurai
12-30-2015, 02:02
Oh, by the way, re all that other stuff you posted :
If you found it all boring, too bad. Teppo aside, to get a feel for STW in its day is worth the read IMHO (the old archival stuff)
The end ( please )
If you've said all you've wished to say, there's noone here compelling you to post:shrug:
If someone else jumps in with their 2cents, I have no qualms posting further.
If you found it all boring, too bad. Teppo aside, to get a feel for STW in its day is worth the read IMHO (the old archival stuff)
Not boring - just "irrelevant" ( as 'agreed to disagree' applies... ). :shrug:
If you've said all you've wished to say, there's noone here compelling you to post
True ( mandatory responses aside that is ). ~:handball:l
If someone else jumps in with their 2cents, I have no qualms posting further.
That's OK...
[ ~:wave: ~:wave: ]
i make use of the rabble by adding 2 in the main armies to work as chasers during rout since they are faster than normal infantry,
it'd be great to have cavalry off the bat but alas, ashi is better than nuffing.
i also got use of them to suppress rebel spam, placing around 3 on a newly conquered region to make it hold
These uses are standard for any clan...
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