IGN demo impressions [Archive]

Oaty

08-21-2004, 04:43

As far as fatigue goes this is just a demo and the original shogun demo did not have fatigue in it nor was there an advantage to fighting downhill. Well I agree fatigue should be in there but should definately change. 1 reason the battle fields are suppose to be bigger. If a unit has not engaged or run it should only lose 1 fatigue bar max (climate permitting exe desert,swamp,hi;lly terrain or other variables). Reenforcements should not lose any fatigue until given an order. Desert battles really sucked in MTW because reinforcements were usually worth crap due to fatigue.

CBR

08-21-2004, 04:46

Aelwyn

08-21-2004, 05:16

Yeah not my favorite thing either. Seems it'll be harder to tell which units are fatigued (maybe not too hard but I'm lazy) and I don't think its a good idea to be able to tell the status of enemy units. In that respect they dumbed it down too much. Yeah they're trying to make it as easy as possible to pick up and play, but I don't like that, if that change is permanent.

Also, I like how the unit icons, mini map, and whatever is on the right, fits at the bottom. But, will you be able to enlarge the mini map at all?

[DnC]

08-21-2004, 06:56

Reading it now and enjoying, but aren't the upside down ^'s the fatigue bars? Just a new system perhaps. Don't know what else they could be for, they aren't marching bars, those are the yellow ^ ones uptop if I'm correct.

CBR

08-21-2004, 12:01

the yellow ^ on top of an icon is a movement indicator. 1 for marching, 2 for running. You can see it on the vids.

CBR

The Blind King of Bohemia

08-21-2004, 12:42

The game looks great. There are quite a few factions in thsi demo, The Julli, Carthage, Gauls and i think another Roman faction at least. So i think we have some modding opportunities with this demo :saint:

Also i like the Cretan archers and the new look celtic auxillaries for Carthage but i would like to have seen the Iberian infantry up close but they don't seem to be in the Carthaginian army, which is a shame ~:(

Stuie

08-21-2004, 13:46

RTW still has fatigue, you can see it in the unit mouse over texts. But I just like to get an overview of it without having to mouse over all my units.

And seems like you get to see the status of enemy units too now.

CBR

Actually, since everyone is always whining about realism, it seems more realistic to me that you have to check with each unit (mouse over) to obtain their current status rather than having it spelled out for you.

Of course seeing the status of enemy units does the opposite.

Barkhorn1x

08-21-2004, 15:15

Actually, since everyone is always whining about realism, it seems more realistic to me that you have to check with each unit (mouse over) to obtain their current status rather than having it spelled out for you.

Of course seeing the status of enemy units does the opposite.

I agree here.

Barkhorn.

[DnC]

08-21-2004, 15:16

the yellow ^ on top of an icon is a movement indicator. 1 for marching, 2 for running. You can see it on the vids.

CBR

That's what I said ~:p
Or weren't you replying to me?
The fatigue bars I was talking about were the ones on the left of the unit image.

Sjakihata

08-21-2004, 15:51

Aelwyn

08-21-2004, 16:01

']That's what I said ~:p
Or weren't you replying to me?
The fatigue bars I was talking about were the ones on the left of the unit image.

I know what you're talking about. And I think those icons refer to valour, or whatever they're gonna call it now. If you can see, there's a bronze looking one, a silver, and a gold. There are some with 2 upside-down ^ bronze things, so thats probably valour 2. 1^silver is probably valour 4, and 1^ gold is probably valour 7, etc. You can also now see weapon and armour upgrades on the unit icons.

The Elephants have me thinking though. In the first screenshot there's 2 units of elephants. The first has 17 at what would appear to be valour 0, and is fighting. The second has 8 at v0 and is running away. So unless the elephants went 'crazy' or whatever happens when they kill your own troops, then they may run away pretty quickly with less casualties. So I'm wondering, will higher valour elephants be less likely to run? Or will they always be unpredictable...

Steppe Merc

08-21-2004, 16:03

I'm all for micromanegment (keeps away all the Noobs! ~:joker: ). But I don't really like that you can see your enemies valor. Then again, in a real battle it would probably be easier to tell their moral, but you can't really simulate that to well.
edit: I meant fatigue not valor. ~:mad:

Aelwyn

08-21-2004, 16:07

I'm all for micromanegment (keeps away all the Noobs! ~:joker: ). But I don't really like that you can see your enemies valor.

You could always see your enemies' valour, even in STW. Its their fatigue, and current 'state' that you couldn't see. Knowing when an enemy unit is waivering for example, is too much info to me. Or if they're fatigued, winded...etc.

Steppe Merc

08-21-2004, 16:08

That's what I meant, fatigue not valor. ~:angry:

HicRic

08-21-2004, 16:10

What ARE those upside-down triangle-type things to the left of the unit picture? If it is fatigue, it looks a bit hard to see. Not to mention it looks like we have to count flags now for valour, as there's nothing on the unit icon to show valour. Just the number of men in the unit.
I guess it would see confusing, though. We've only seen a few screenshots, not actually played the game or read the manual.

Aelwyn

08-21-2004, 16:17

What ARE those upside-down triange-type things to the left of the unit picture? If it is fatigue, it looks a bit hard to see. Not to mention it looks like we have to count flags now for valour, as there's nothing on the unit icon to show valour. Just the number in the unit.
I guess it would see confusing, though. We've only seen a few screenshots, not actually played the game or read the manual.

I know what you're talking about. And I think those icons refer to valour, or whatever they're gonna call it now. If you can see, there's a bronze looking one, a silver, and a gold. There are some with 2 upside-down ^ bronze things, so thats probably valour 2. 1^silver is probably valour 4, and 1^ gold is probably valour 7, etc. You can also now see weapon and armour upgrades on the unit icons.

~:p

[DnC]

08-21-2004, 16:17

I know what you're talking about. And I think those icons refer to valour, or whatever they're gonna call it now. If you can see, there's a bronze looking one, a silver, and a gold. There are some with 2 upside-down ^ bronze things, so thats probably valour 2. 1^silver is probably valour 4, and 1^ gold is probably valour 7, etc. You can also now see weapon and armour upgrades on the unit icons.

Good thought there Aelwyn, that could also be it. Was already wondering why certain units didn't have those bars on the left, so I was also a bit doubtful about them being fatigue bars, but couldn't think of anything else.

HicRic

08-21-2004, 16:19

Sorry, I took ages to post after I typed it, so I hadn't seen that post. ~;) That probably is valour. But why that system? A little digit with a number is fine with me. ~:P

The Blind King of Bohemia

08-21-2004, 16:21

I have tried to make a small list of the units we have seen for the demo, in the pictures and such as so far i have:

Carthage:

Carthaginian Skirmishers
Sacred band cavalry
Poeni infantry
War Elephant
Armoured war Elephant
Another cavalry unit perhaps the generals unit, not sure

Mercenary for carthage:

A Gallic light infantry unit
Numidian cavalry
Gallic Cavalry
Cretan Archers

Roman army(at Trebia and in the tutorial part)

Hastati
Triarii
Principles
Velites
Roman Archers
Roman General(heavy cavalry)

The gallic army at the bridge has another tyoe of infantry and another unit of cavalry. The infantry definetly differs as in one of the pics at IGN shows a dead Gaul at the roman archers feet.

CBR

08-21-2004, 16:45

']That's what I said ~:p
Or weren't you replying to me?
The fatigue bars I was talking about were the ones on the left of the unit image.

Gah sorry I didnt read post properly. The small ^ on the left of the icon is valor. You will notice 3 different colors (bronze, silver and gold) and max 3 of them. A total of 9 valor.

Edit: IIRC all the units have the same valor in all the pictures of the battle and its been seen and commented on earlier in a *cough* leaked *cough* "preview" of am earlier beta. These screenshots are just a confirmation of the valor system of RTW.

CBR

Jacque Schtrapp

08-21-2004, 17:02

But I don't really like that you can see your enemies valor.

Why? Those same units would have been easily identifiable by their actual unit standards in real life. I'm fairly certan everyone on the battlefield knew which companies were the ones to avoid facing if possible.
~;)

Barkhorn1x

08-21-2004, 17:02

Disagreed, micro-management doesnt mean historical accuracy, it means numb fingers and needless work. Bad imo.

Ahem...speaking of historical accuracy. No ancient general (or Samurai, or King for that matter) could gauge the exhaustion of his troops by looking at icons at the bottom of a screen!

Barkhorn.

Sjakihata

08-21-2004, 17:06

no king, emperor or shogun could magically fly around on the battlefield commanding troops by a single *click* nor did he have a map that automatically updated movements... ~:rolleyes:

Barkhorn1x

08-21-2004, 17:11

I'm fairly certan everyone on the battlefield knew which companies were the ones to avoid facing if possible.
~;)

Oh, come on - what do they get - an intelligence extract w/ a detailed OB, To&E?

I would think that the Romans would know just a bit about the Hellenic armies and NOTHING about the 'barbarians'. In any case - they certainly woudln't know enough about individual units to go, "See that unit over there, they are some tough ombres!"

We know that stuff like this is a sop to the MP players. Thes things are more than a bit annoying to the SP players (ones that enjoy accuracy and challenge anyway), as they really give the player way too much information.

Barkhorn.

Barkhorn1x

08-21-2004, 17:14

no king, emperor or shogun could magically fly around on the battlefield commanding troops by a single *click* nor did he have a map that automatically updated movements... ~:rolleyes:

Yea, no shite. I posted a long time ago that it would be nice to have an option to work through subordinate commaders for an extra taste of realism.

BTW, your comment in no way invalidates mine.

Barkhorn.

Jacque Schtrapp

08-21-2004, 17:22

I would think that the Romans would know just a bit about the Hellenic armies and NOTHING about the 'barbarians'. In any case - they certainly woudln't know enough about individual units to go, "See that unit over there, they are some tough ombres!"

Barkhorn.

You might be correct... the FIRST time they faced each other. Each of these cultures fought numerous battles against their foes and were certain to begin to recognize elements of the opposing forces with each subsequent engagement.

Sjakihata

08-21-2004, 17:45

Yea, no shite. I posted a long time ago that it would be nice to have an option to work through subordinate commaders for an extra taste of realism.

BTW, your comment in no way invalidates mine.

Barkhorn.

You fail to get the picture. If the big things, like flying around is not fixed, why on earth would they focus on the details?

CBR

08-21-2004, 18:16

Im all up for more realism but fatigue is an important part of the battle engine with the combat/morale modifiers you get from fatigue.

And we now have 20 units to control and from what I can see in the vids, gameplay looks even faster. Taking away essential information and forcing you to micromanage to get it is not the way to do it!

And in MP we dont have the luxury of having a pause button. I just prefer a real time strategy game and not a clickfest!

CBR

hundurinn

08-21-2004, 18:22

This link hopefully brings this disgussion into another direction ~D
Link (http://media.pc.ign.com/media/498/498739/img_2303948.html?fromint=1)

CBR

08-21-2004, 18:33

We know that stuff like this is a sop to the MP players. Thes things are more than a bit annoying to the SP players (ones that enjoy accuracy and challenge anyway), as they really give the player way too much information.

Barkhorn.

Actually a lot of MP'ers want more historical accuracy. Its us who's gonna face ridiculous armies filled with dogs and screaming women pumped up with all kinds of silly upgrades. Its us who could have battles involving great tactics and ambuses if it wasnt for the near all-seeing radar and now apparently a mouseover delivers even more info in RTW.

The Total War series has always been focused on SP so if there are new unrealistic features included in RTW dont blame the MP'ers please...

CBR

Aelwyn

08-21-2004, 18:47

And in MP we dont have the luxury of having a pause button. I just prefer a real time strategy game and not a clickfest!

CBR

No we don't want that CBR. We want a game where we can highlight all of our units and double click behind the enemy lines.

~:p

Spartiate

08-21-2004, 18:50

One of the CA guys declared in an article last year that the original battle interface would still be available for veteran users(us lot).Does anyone know if this still holds true or has been abandoned??

CBR

08-21-2004, 18:51

No we don't want that CBR. We want a game where we can highlight all of our units and double click behind the enemy lines.

~:p

Yes nice and simple, no micromanagement there ! ~:joker: ~:cheers:

CBR

Blodrast

08-21-2004, 22:18

CBR, you're right. The gameplay seems A LOT faster.
Why, I remember waiting a good half a minute for my cavalry (i.e., the faster troops) to ride around and flank the enemy, and another minute or so for the armies to get within range of each other. Here, even though the battlefield is larger, things seem to move really really fast.

Personally I am not really crazy about the minimap, it just seems more cluttered. I suppose the idea was that by making units into V's or arrows, you can tell at a glance which way all units are facing. By the looks of it, that's not gonna work out that way. I can't tell %*&$ from it, right now ~:)
No way you're gonna be able to tell that in the middle of a battle, not when there's more than 3 units involved anyway ~:p It's just gonna be a huge blob of whatever color you have and whatever color the enemy has...

I'm also not really crazy about the new fatigue and valor system.
If the bronze/silver/gold v's are valor, well, I would have honestly preferred numbers.
A '7' is a lot easier to interpret subconsciously than a silver and 2 bronze V's...
And in terms of realism, you'll have to grant me that any general knew the valor of its own troops...now, instead of focusing on the battle, I'll have to multiply the gold V by 7, add it to the silver V multiplied by 4, and add the 3 bronze V's....
I'm exaggerating, of course, but it's a valid point (at least for me).

I also strongly believe that it would be useful to be able to see the fatigue of your units on the bottom line, not to have to hover over them.
Some of you have already outlined the tradeoffs between making it historically realistic and making it playable, not a mouse-wrecking finger-crippling clickfest...

andrewt

08-21-2004, 23:44

A lot of players didn't like autocast in Warcraft 3, either, which I thought was a very good idea. I'm all for minimizing the amount of clicking people have to do in a game. Interface management strategy is my least favorite skill needed in PC games. The less you need of it, imho, the better. I believe the interface should be as unobtrusive as possible and should feel natural not something you have to actively manage. Learning clicking skills is just not fun.

Having to click each individual unit to find out how fatigued they are is just plain tedious. Sometimes, I think that game companies have a partnership with carpal tunnel syndrome doctors.

I also dislike the medal thing for valor. The substitution of descriptions like irresistable charge, etc. for numbers was what made the learning curve for Medieval Total War much higher than Shogun. I had no idea what units did what and how they compared to other units.

Puzz3D

08-22-2004, 01:54

You don't have to click on the unit to see the text status report. Holding the cursor over the unit is enough. I make use of the fatigue bars on the icons in every MTW battle. It's unfortunate there is no fatigue indicator on the unit icon because there is room for one. In multiplayer, you have to be aware of the fatigue level of your units or else you are screwed. Then again a lot of multiplayers think they have been screwed by the gameplay decisions.

I hope those IGN videos are playing back faster than the game actually plays.

They always had the colored symbols for weapon and armor going back to STW. They've extended that symbolic style to valor chevrons which should be easy enough to adjust to, but the 9 levels of valor seems to be a return to the 9 levels of honor in STW. A unit gets 500% stronger in STW with 9 honor upgrades. I hope multiplayer can be played at low money to minimize the upgrading without the game being a rout fest.

It looks to me like gameplay in multiplayer is going to be about the same as it's been in the past. Find the 2 or 3 best units for the money, and take a lot of them. I would expect the enjoyment in single player campaign to far exceed what it will be in multiplayer without even taking the problems with GameSpy into account. In fact, so many people have trouble with GameSpy that it's been banned as a subject of discussion at .com.

afrit

08-22-2004, 02:06

I just prefer a real time strategy game and not a clickfest!
CBR

Amen to that!

MTW's controls really sucked. I hope the controls in RTW are very customizable. Things I liked from the screenshots:
*The green arrows which show you what is selected.
*The little description indicating the kind of unit (Poeni infantry [spearman] etc.) In MTW it took me awhile to figure out what every unit was
*Voice over feedback on commands. Helps to know what you told a unit to do.
*The minimap is zoomable (I see a + and - buttons). In MTW, trying to zoom in on the minimap meant obscuring the main view.
*Selected unit shows up selected on the minimap.
*Arrows on the main view give direction of selected unit if it is offscreen

Things I am worried are not there:
*Fatigue indicator in the panel bar like others noted. I can't see it. I hope I'm missing it.

I'm also bummed that the demo does not include anything from the campaign map.

afrit

Blodrast

08-22-2004, 02:46

afrit, I'll have to disagree with you on the "spearmen" part.
It is nice to have it during the tutorial, or the first 10 times you're playing the game, or something like that.
After you become familiar with it, it's only more clutter added on the screen. I hate clutter on the screen myself, and I'm all in favor of having only indispensable stuff showing up as you hover over a unit. The unit's type is not indispensable once I've learnt it.

A relatively easy to implement thing would have been some customization of the level of detail you see when you hover the mouse over a unit; i.e., the player should be able to choose fatigue level, morale (_very_ useful IMHO), and whatever else.
I doubt that you'll maintain that statement after, say, half a year of playing RTW...

Anyway, there are other issues much more important than this ~:)

That aside, the lack of customization in user interfaces is something that has kept me wondering for years now if there isn't some global plot to make them difficult to use and non-customizable...
MTW wasn't that bad; could have been better, but it was far from disastrous.

Leet Eriksson

08-22-2004, 03:11

Numidian cavalry

The ones on horses or camels?

Can't wait for the demo tbh, i think i won't sleep today (6 AM monday here) and wait till they released it ~D

Please CA release the demo already i can't wait ~:p :jumping: :tomato:

EDIT:demo will be on fileplanet if IGN is hosting, that means we'll need an account or wait in line... damn you gamespy ~:wacko:

Blodrast

08-22-2004, 03:23

right, fileplanet means you wait in line. Unless, ofc, you actually pay for your membership. And my experience with fileplanet is that quite often the line is rather long. Plus they cut down on their bandwidth, too; there used to be 2 servers equally fast (USEast and USWest), now USEast is crappier (or was last I checked).

What I am hoping for is that someone among us who fetches it will also post it somewhere else.

Leet Eriksson

08-22-2004, 03:27

Well i'm hoping other sites will upload and mirror the demos besides Fileplanet..

afrit

08-22-2004, 03:45

afrit, I'll have to disagree with you on the "spearmen" part.
It is nice to have it during the tutorial, or the first 10 times you're playing the game, or something like that.
After you become familiar with it, it's only more clutter added on the screen. I hate clutter on the screen myself

I share your feelings about clutter. I would be happy with an option to turn off the extra description.

HOwever, for learning purposes, additional information is nice. How many people here have paused a battle to switch to the unit comparison tool to find out about a new enemy unit? I for one have done that many times.

What the battlemap needs is options like:

Allow Pause
Allow orders during Pause [I don't have the self discipline to avoid Pause when a battle goes bad ]
Fog of war (on/off) or unrestricted camera
Show unit morale/valor/fatigue as numbers
Show enemy valor/fatigue/morale

Other information I like to see is "winning/losing/etc/" in the bottom panel. THey can implement this as a color code (green crossed swords: winning, Yellow: losing, Red: losing badly). In MTW, you won't know that a unit is in trouble until the flashing white flag shows up.

Also a right click on a unit to get its info and stats would be tremendously helpful.

Because these options make the game easier to win, they should be grouped together as a "Realistic battle option" for the hardcore generals among us.

just my thoughts.