Petition to reduce RTW speed

[GFX707]

I have been reading the feedback on the demo, and I have come to the conclusion that the number one problem the community reported with it is the "speed" of the gameplay. 90% of the posts in the "demo feedback" thread complain about the speed.

In my opinion the movement (run speed in particular) speed of the units should be slowed by 20% (although this is less important) while the "fighting" speed or rate at which casualties are created should be halved.

All those who agree post here in favour so that CA can be coerced (in a friendly manner of course) into tweaking this before final release if there is time.

[The Scourge]

I have been reading the feedback on the demo, and I have come to the conclusion that the number one problem the community reported with it is the "speed" of the gameplay.

In my opinion the movement (run speed in particular) speed of the units should be slowed by 20% while the "fighting" speed or rate at which casualties are created should be halved.

All those who agree post here in favour so that CA can be coerced (in a friendly manner of course) into tweaking this before final release if there is time.

Not sure it's that much different from MTW.It may be that the closeness of the two armys ,makes it seem that way.I remember thinking the same thing about the Medieval Demo.

[King Azzole]

I liked the speed. ~:shock: Looked realistic all around. I thought the battles actually were lasting pretty long. Remember the units fighting were just units of 60-100 and like 10 of them. Imagine huge armys and you will beg that they kill eachother faster.. that or they include a 10x speed function ~:wacko:

[Leet Eriksson]

Go back to medieval and play the last mission of saladins historical campaign, and then replay trebia, fact both battles were waged in close combat speeded the game up, becuase imho the speed is pretty fine as it is.

[GFX707]

Look at the speed casualties are inflicted by sacred band cavalry in particular....charge them into something, watch an ungodly amount of casualties inflicted in far too short a time....

In particular it is far too hard to keep track of what is going on when people are getting killed too fast. If you like being constantly in pause, that's fine but I don't. You look up after two seconds and your stupid troops have run off to the edge of the map chasing after routers, and the interface doesn't even include any order to prevent units from doing this (not an unreasonable command) all of which leads to frustration.

It would be fine if you were fighting one unit versus another but when you have another 15 units to maneouvre and keep track of the speed is ridiculous!

[Puzz3D]

I measured the run speed of those carth javelin skirmishers in the RTW demo, and it's 2.5 times the walk speed. The heavy Poeni Inf could not run, but it walked at the same speed as the skirmishers. In STW and MTW, inf units typically run at 1.66 times the walk speed. The walk speed is 3.72 miles per hour (1.68 meters per second). This would make the run speed in RTW 9.3 miles per hour which is about the speed of a marathon runner. It seems unlikely that an armored Roman legionaire with a large shield could run that fast, but they do it in the RTW demo. In anycase, in RTW demo the run speed relative to the walk speed of inf has been dramatically increased over the previous games.

Additional test:

It was the phalanx formation that prevented running. Thx for the tip guys. I measured heavy Poeni inf walk and run over the same distance, and the speeds were the same as the skirmisher unit. I also measured cath sacred cav. Walk is approximately 1.25 times faster than inf walk, and run is 1.75 times faster than inf run. So, if inf walk is taken as the base speed x then cav walk 1.25x, inf run 2.5x and cav run 4.375x.

[Sjakihata]

put them on guard mode and they will not run


trust Yuuki to desect the stats! Thanks for the info, which proves we (the guys who think speed is too fast) are correct

[CBR]

One reason for the high casualty rates might be the big differences in valor. So it might be alright...too early to tell without modding it to equal valor.

Poeni inf are in phalanx formation from start and that would slow them down. Maybe if you disable their special formation they can run?


CBR

[The_Emperor]

The speed is fine... The User Interface is not however.

[Stuie]

Personally I wouldn't petition for anything until we see the final product. The demo is obviously a one-sided affair that makes it very easy for the player to slaughter large numbers of men.

Give me comparable armies meeting on the campaign map and then I can judge speed/casualty rate. This demo tells me nothing except that the graphics work on my system. ~:)

[GFX707]

The speed is fine... The User Interface is not however.

This is not a thread about user interfaces. That's what the demo impressions thread is for.

[The_Emperor]

This is not a thread about user interfaces. That's what the demo impressions thread is for.

Isn't speed also what that thread is also for? I'm just saying if you are going to petition for something, make it something good.

A lot of players like the speed in the demo as battles often took too long to resolve in the old TW games, but as far as I know almost all hate the Interface... Its more of a major gripe than unit speed.

[Kommodus]

I think it would be great just to include an option to adjust game speed. A number of games have a feature like this included. (In fact, the Total War games do have it - it's just that the slowest speed is still a little too fast for some people.) I personally think the marching/running speed is fine.

Of course, this still wouldn't address the casualty rates. It would be nice to be able to adjust this too somehow. The issue a lot of people seem to have is that, percentage-wise, casualties pile up extremely quickly, making it difficult to execute complex maneuvers before the melee is resolved. I would like to see head-on melees take longer, to allow for more maneuvering combat.

[RTKLamorak]

well.. Yukki's stats show that the speed is indeed to fast in terms of realism, and when comparing run/walk speeds throughout the last 2 games, and when compared to marathon runners ~:p

I do like the increased speed however, and always disliked the crawling along of mtw (compared to shogun anyway).

I wouldnt mind a small reduction in speed i guess, but not much ;)

[Orange]

I also think running speed could be a little bit slower. Just a little bit, because the maps are big, running a unit for even a small time will considerably lower its fighting power as usual, and while marathon is a bit fast, I like the explosive charges.

Killing speed: I think it depends a lot on the valour, especially with respect to the Sacred Band. Just have your Poeni stand and fight against the triarii (which the AI sends in first, not very Roman ~:wacko: ), and it will take a lot longer before any line breaks. Now imagine TWO phalanxes battling it out.

So, no premature critics from me as well, I will wait for the full release. Just having some fun with the demo, getting used to the controls, so I can jump into the full game immediately ~:p

[Sjakihata]

Poeni inf are in phalanx formation from start and that would slow them down. Maybe if you disable their special formation they can run?



This is correct. Disengage from phalanx formation and they can run along happily

[spacecadet]

The speed is fine... The User Interface is not however.
:jumping: What he said

~:smoking:

[ShadesPanther]

This is correct. Disengage from phalanx formation and they can run along happily

They actually fight like Principes then. Very nice ~:)

[Steppe Merc]

I'm with you. Of course, hopefully we can mod it, since it may be a bit late. But the units are way to fast.

[Nelson]

I was astonished when I gave some triarii an order to run. In this demo the infantry seem to fly. I'm not surprised that Puzz found the increase to be so great. It's obvious to anyone who has played a lot of TW.

Armies were ponderous things and fast troops were only RELATIVELY swift. These demo units run like a doped up Olympian. If people want faster battles then they should play with the arcade setting. I say things need to slow down.

Aside from the pace, I have no other serious beefs with this outstanding (albeit brief) demo. A couple little annoyances but that's about it.

[Medieval Assassin]

IMHO it seems realistic, though I haven't played, units kill eachother at a good speed for playing, although its probaby not realistic, If 2 men go one on one, more then likely it wont last long.

[Thoros of Myr]

I agree that some of the units move too fast and I think elite units kill too fast but the rest of the units are fine and a slight increase in killing speed actually feels more realistic then MTW, they've just gone too far with the elite units and movement speed of some units. I see no reason why a mod can't fix these issues.

As for the UI, I think it's the worst part of the demo and CA will have to fix it, a mod probly cant do to much to the UI.

[Steppe Merc]

Battles were slow things, and while I wouldn't fight a day long battle, it still goes way to fast. They probably did this to apeall to newbies and the general public. ~:(

[Sinner]

I'm wondering if what we're seeing in the demo actually is the arcade setting, which by its nature usually implies lots of flash, high speed, 'kewl' graphics & effects ~:rolleyes: , simplistic controls and - in combat games - lots of slaughter, all generally at the expense of realism and detail.

[Nelson]

I believe arcade setting turns off morale and fatigue (if not other things too) , both of which seem to be on during the battle.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Speed is much too fast...no time to do anything, just charge your units and the enemy routs.

[Thoros of Myr]

If you have not tried it, play the gual vs. senate mod, the battle can take 20+mins and the units don't route in a heartbeat. When you compare it to Trebia it's almost like two different games.

[Spartiate]

I played the demo for the firdt time last night and i was really dissappointed with the speed.It was way too fast.Once you give your original orders while the game is paused you can really do very little to affect the outcome after that.How the hell are you supposed to micro manage when everyone is engaged within 5 seconds at most.I really thought nothing could ruin this game for me but i see that i may be wrong.Please God it will be tweaked for the final release.I do not remember the units being this fast on Time Commanders so hopefully it's just the demo.

[Admin]

Hello,

I feel infantry is running too fast. Not sure how much, just an impression.

I also had a conflict with the camera keys. The 4 and 6 are supposed to strafe and the 1 and 3 to rotate. Oddly it was doing either one or the other for both sets at the same time. I changed the controls to classic in the preferences.txt using Wordpad and that seemed to fix it, but unit drag&drop was gone.

Preferences.txt is a very nice addition to the game: my experience is that GUI configurators sometimes refuse to accept a setting. It's great to have Wordpad then.

Nice settings too: no arrows and away with those huge, surprise spoiling flags. Pretty convincing demo and the soldiers act lively.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Petition to reduce RTW speed?

Where do I sign!

The speed of the units is amazing. At least in the battle of Trebbia, everything was almost instant. By the time I had got my cavalry into the Roman rear, most of the real action was winding down! ~:eek:

Call me old-fashioned, but I liked the pace of MTW. It let you think and respond to develpments.

Of course, maybe I was just distracted by the otherwise beautiful game. ~:p

[Spino]

If you have not tried it, play the gual vs. senate mod, the battle can take 20+mins and the units don't route in a heartbeat. When you compare it to Trebia it's almost like two different games.

That's because the training battle is heavily scripted, much moreso than the Trebbia battle. Notice that the Gauls don't actually charge the Senate army until after you've crossed the bridge and engaged the Gaulish Warband unit sent to stop you. Once the main Gaulish army engages the Senate army the conflict is over very quickly. In fact by the time I marched my 3 units to the actual fighting the Senate army was mopping up the last of the Gauls.

The 'killing speed' of the game does need to slow down. Units get wasted in melee far too quickly, especially when flanked or hit from the rear. The increase in combat speed is so bad that you simply cannot stay on top of the action unless you pause the game now, and the dodgy cursor speed doesn't help matters. Multiplayer games are going to be ridiculously quick with these current settings! Now I don't mind if a unit's morale quickly hits rock bottom and it routs soon after being flanked but right now the old style 'increase the crank speed of the meatgrinder' effect on flanked units as seen in STW and MTW now feels like a 200HP industrial capacity blender! Medieval's melee combat speed was spot on, it simply felt right or in the very least, felt more realistic.

Furthermore as others have said here and the other demo related thread infantry units, especially the heavily armored ones, run and charge at ridiculously high speeds. I refuse to believe a Republican era Legionary or Poeni Spearman in full battle gear can run like an Olympic sprinter. It's tweaks and changes like this that make me wonder just how much the Warcraft, Starcraft and Command & Conquer games have influenced CA's design approach with respect to RTW's tactical battles.

On the other hand cavalry speeds feel right. I can certainly live with the current settings. But please bring back the infantry speeds and melee 'feel' of Medieval!

[Thoros of Myr]

That's because the training battle is heavily scripted, much moreso than the Trebbia battle. Notice that the Gauls don't actually charge the Senate army until after you've crossed the bridge and engaged the Gaulish Warband unit sent to stop you. Once the main Gaulish army engages the Senate army the conflict is over very quickly. In fact by the time I marched my 3 units to the actual fighting the Senate army was mopping up the last of the Gauls.

Your talking about the CA created Tutorial battle, I'm talking about a mod.

[Spino]

Your talking about the CA created Tutorial battle, I'm talking about a mod.

Oops, sorry!

[Ar7]

I must join the people who think that the speed is a bit too fast, especially the charging cavalry.

Though i think the user interface is normal. I have been playing a lot of fps games so putting the same controls in RTW really feels comfortable and i got used to it after one battle. So it ain't as terrible as some people say.

[Blodrast]

I also believe that the current speeds are too fast.
I believe Spartiate hit the spot a few posts above, I'll just try to elaborate a bit:

Yes, it's _cool_ to watch the units running like in Matrix with superhuman speed, and it's cool to accumulate casualties like Arnie in Commando, BUT:

It's very difficult to control things, which is totally uncool.

Think a bit about it: the armies have increased in numbers, both absolute numbers, and number of units (from 16 to 20). So you'll have to do more micromanagement.
The main appeal of the stw/mtw battles (for me at least) was the possibility of controlling each and every unit, and being able to make them act each exactly as I would like (i.e., one cav go around, some inf run towards left and try to flank those swordsmen, etc, etc).
The exact opposite of that would be the Starcraft/Warcraft battles, where you get your troops close to the enemy, select them all, and click attack, and off they go !
There's no stopping them, changing them, or controlling them after they're in the battle...Therefore, the tactics lie somewhere else: what units to build, what direction to attack from, etc, but NOT in the unit control.

From what we've been able to see in the demo, RTW is going towards the latter style.
Don't get me wrong, I've played a lot of Starcraft/Warcraft and enjoyed them thoroughly, but that's not what I'm looking for in a TW game. Here, I'm looking for the ability to fully control units.

To put it simply, more units to manage and faster speeds means less time to manage each unit, and therefore less time to actually implement _some_ tactical maneuvres. After all, _that_ is why you're not autocalcing, not the pretty graphics or the cool music, isn't it ?

And while I expect that for many people, especially people less familiar with the TW games, or people who don't care that much for twisted and strange maneuvres during the battle, but more for the feeling that they get from launching an all-charge towards the enemy and then watching the show, the faster speed will be welcome, I'm sure that people who do crazy stuff like thinking about how to outsmart the AI by imagining a flanking maneuver with troops the developers haven't considered, and people who measure units' characteristics and such (cheers to that), will agree with me that a bit more control would only enhance a TW experience...otherwise, we may as well wait for the next Warcraft/Starcraft...I'm sure they'll have graphics and music at least as cool as RTW, and a much much simpler interface: select all, double-click, and enjoy the battle (for all of its 25 seconds).

[Thoros of Myr]

Good points Blodrast. That is the essence of TW games and why we play them. I thought they would use the new tech to enhance that aspect but it's definatly not been enhanced. It seems they now prefer to have a mass market type game that will be abandoned when the first cool new thing comes out. Ofcourse we only have a demo so no final judgment can be made, only an impression.

[afrit]

I think we should wait a while and try a few more battles before petitioning CA for anything. I think the battle is slightly faster paced, but that may very well be a good thing.

The only suggestion I have is for a "slow" button to decrease speed from "normal". Or better yet a slider speed control that goes from 50% to 500%, with 100% being "normal".

Hopefully modders may give us some more scenarios to try out.

[Blodrast]

I realize this may or may not necessarily be an issue - see my comments in the Poll: RTW demo: speed - reduce or not reduce ? (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=35411).

[King Azzole]

The more I watch the unit speeds the more im convinced they are running about the top speed a human/horse can do in real life based on there movement across the terrain. I think the speeds are perfect.

[GFX707]

You think they can really run at the top speeds possible with all that armour and gear?

[Sinner]

I think we should wait a while and try a few more battles before petitioning CA for anything. I think the battle is slightly faster paced, but that may very well be a good thing.

The only suggestion I have is for a "slow" button to decrease speed from "normal". Or better yet a slider speed control that goes from 50% to 500%, with 100% being "normal".

Hopefully modders may give us some more scenarios to try out.

From the modding I've been playing around with, I haven't come across anything yet that changes the battles from what I personally consider an arcade style to a more realistic style.

For fire & forget type play the faster action does work fairly well since it means the battles end quicker & you can move on to the next one, but if you want to actually command your armies, it can make it very frustrating since the fast pace means a situation might be over or effectively over by the time you even notice it, never mind actually getting to decide what to do and then issue orders.

I'm having nightmarish thoughts that diplomacy, sea battles, trade and all the other quirky features of the MTW campaign will now be fixed and improved, but the tactical battles will make RTW the Scrappy Doo of the TW trilogy.