CA still has trouble with skirmishers

[Red Harvest]

The demo reveals that CA's engine still needs tweaked to make javelin armed skirmishers behave properly. The only way I can get the Carthaginian javelin men to behave as skirmishers is to take them off skirmish ~:pissed: That way I can get them to actually fire at the advancing velites, before manually withdrawing them up the slope for cover. I thought the problem was that they were in a hole, but the same thing happened when they were near the crest of the slope, they just ran away in skirmish mode without throwing any javelins. Looks like STW/MI, MTW/VI all over again. The AI can't use javelins properly (except for some on horseback that are hella fast!) When I made the skirmishers hold their ground and throw they pushed back all the velites, before hitting the advancing legions as well. In this case, the AI didn't use the velites properly either...whereas without my intervention the velites chased off the skirmishers without any missiles being thrown.

CA, this is an area you really need to fix! You need to write special skirmish code for javelin/spear based infantry units. When they are in skirmish they need to have a different "reaction" distance set up. What I envision is something like:
1. Prepare to throw distance X (modified for approaching unit speed/slope/height)
2. Throw distance anything less than Y (modified for slope/height)
3. Withdraw distance at Z (modified for approaching unit speed/slope/height)
4. Perhaps having some modification for coordination with infantry/cav to their rear so they withdraw a bit later when they have support, but run like the dickens vs. cav when they don't have support.
5. Perhaps having them withdraw if they are taking substantial casualties from opposing jav or arrows as well.

The goal is to get skirmishers to behave logically. At present they either require a lot of attention, or they don't participate (in skirmish), or you take them off skirmish and use them as a sacrificial line disruptor or to chase routers.

I think the engine could handle this pretty easily with minor tweaks, but the decision tree for these units does not appear to have been worked out to the same level as for archers, cavalry, and infantry.

[Aelwyn]

I agree. They take too long to reload/fire, and their range isn't very good. They either need to fire quicker and gain a bit of range, or gain a lot of range, and fire slightly quicker. ~:)

[Hurin_Rules]

I thought that RTW would finally fix this, but it seems it has not. This is really frustrating. It seriously detracts from the value of skirmishers. Please address this issue CA.

[Red Harvest]

I agree. They take too long to reload/fire, and their range isn't very good. They either need to fire quicker and gain a bit of range, or gain a lot of range, and fire slightly quicker. ~:)

Yes, they might want to extend range slightly or set the prepare to throw distance, X, substantially more than the start throwing distance, Y. That way, they should be able to throw immediately when someone reaches the range. Instead it takes them a full reload cycle, so before they are ready they have to run. With slower/heavier moving units, they should be able to get off two throws even if the heavies are "charging."

This could also be made somewhat morale/valour dependent. Low morale/valour would spook and run faster (thereby being less effective.) The more I think about it, the more sense this apsect makes. Undisciplined or demoralized skirmishers would run "early." And they might not prepare to throw either, so that they throw late if at all. I noticed in MTW/VI that arbalesters firing rate slowed quite a bit as they fatigued or as morale fell (these are linked.) It was most obvious in the desert or in desperate defenses against several stacks.

[Spino]

Yes, skirmishers are suffering from the same problems they did in MTW! Their reaction/retreat range needs to be smaller than their weapon range otherwise it's the same story all over again. I suppose a healthy reaction/retreat range is good for enemy cavalry but it is ridiculous when employed against infantry. This was somewhat fixable in MTW simply by increasing the ranges of javelins to a more realistic maximum range. Then skirmisher units would get at least 1 or 2 rounds off before running to a safer distance.

[Beelzebub]

I wonder if at least the AI is better at using heavy missile units. it was pretty ridiculous in MTW when people started modding in heavily armoured infantry/cavalry with bows or javelins, and theyd always be in skirmish mode so theyd run away if you attacked with even the wimpiest light infantry.

[Thoros of Myr]

They are pretty much useless right now becuase of the micro-management required to have them skirmish.

They still work good for bait though :) You can pull plenty of gleeful Hastati into your Phalanx .

[ShadesPanther]

Actually I've had the Roman skirmishers attack me when i'm the Gauls almost straight away so I think theat they do attack sometimes if they see a weak flank or a unit is distracted

[TexRoadkill]

I agree with everyone but it must be hard to make a truly good AI skirmish routine. As a human it's pretty easy to tell what the intentions are of an enemy that is closing in. You know they are going to continue walking in a straight line and possibly even bypass the skirmishers but the AI just decides to run anytime an enemy unit gets close. It's also very easy to feign an assault and keep AI skirmishers running all over the map.

I've just gotten in the habit of putting skirmishers and archers on Hold Ground and then manually withdrawing them when it gets dangerous. This will be tougher to manage when the battles become huge. Often I'll just keep the skirmishers behind the defensive units. Even though I lose the advantage of range it gives the skirmishers more time to fire as the attackers close in. Another usefull trick is to move up the defensive line to protect the skirmishers at the last minute instead of pullling back the skirmishers. The timing can be tricky and if the enemy charges too fast you might end up with a big mess.