Soulflame
08-26-2004, 03:44
Hello everyone,
First, a little sidenote:
This post turned out longer then I intended. It is made of 3 parts. The first is just something a bit off-topic and intro. Skip it unless you have time free. The second part is about my background of TW games. Read it after you read part 3 and want to know some more about why I came to those opinions.
Sorry for the long post. I understand if a mod shorterns it, breaks it up in more then 1 post or anything in that nature. Truth is, I don't want to remove any part since it took me over an hour to make this post...
part 1
It strikes me as kind of odd, maybe this day (which is only young at its 3 am) is turning out as one of those weird those where a lot goes wrong, but it seems I am very locked away from the TW community.
I just tried to register at the .com forums to post about what I'm about to write below, but somehow ezboard got totally confused. I didn't get a validate email address message, but another message with a different username and password, which I think I used on a forum long dead. After more then an hour I gave up... remembering the trouble with previous ezboards (sigh).
Now I find that these forums, although they are a blessing with registering :), have a system that prevents people from posting in certain places until they reach a certain status.
It's not that I don't understand it, quite the contrary, I think it's a good system. I just put this down to voice the little bit of irony I feel about TW fora; it must really be a war out here ;).
Sorry for that long diversion introduction, maybe should have been a separate post, but then it would just be a worthless topic I think. On to the real topic.
part 2
I am a reasonably new player of the TW games. My brother bought and played Shogun a lot back in those days, but found Medieval a bit hard when it was just released.
Recently, I saw the games in his collection and asked if I could play them for a while. So about a month or 2 back I started Shogun and was instantly hooked. Medieval followed shortly after that and kept me playing well into the early mornings. I now bought both games (including the VI expansion my brother didn't have) and played with delight.
I was even happier when I found out that a new game in the series is soon to be released. After looking at the screenshots and some of the video footage, this all looked very promising.
So eager as the rest of the community I played the demo first thing I could on monday as well. And I'm a bit splitted about it. I've been playing Warcraft, C&C and the likes for a long time as well (even the good old days of Dune2 are engraved in my memory). I like those strategy games, but I was hooked to the TW series for other reasons. I own Warcraft 3 and C&C generals, I play them (not reguarly anymore.. 2 guesses which games caused that ;)), I like them, but they are different. I wouldn't have bought the TW games if they were just another RTS because with Generals and War3, I have all the regular RTS action I need.
The demo of Rome;TW played a lot like those RTS games (as many already stated). Since I am somewhat of a "middleman" (like both categories), I think I might have a slightly different perspective then others on the demo.
part 3
I for one like the new camera. One of the most troubling things in the previous TW games I found the camera. I never could quite get the hang of it. Obviously I haven't played the TW games as long as all the hardcore players, but I'm not that "stuck" (or 'locked in' as I should say in terms of networks) so that I can't appreciate something that technically and simplistically more appealing.
The battlefield graphics are better, I think nobody will argue here... the graphics are a huge step forward.
The minimap, kill ratio bar, unit panel and unit actions panel are less good then before; the atmosphere it radiates is much less the strategic atmosphere that comes from the previous TW games. Sure, the old TW games-graphics may look stale, but that's it's beauty... it contains information.. strategic information. It doesn't need to be fancy, it needs to be clear give a commander all the information it needs in the blink of an eye without too much mumbo-jumbo. All else (in my opinion) pollutes the way a person can effectively use strategic and tactic decisions in the game.
This is also true about the voice acting. Although I much confess that I think this problem is a bit overreacted. I think the odds are pretty high that there is a way to turn them off.
Unit selection has undergone both good points and a bad point. The good points being able to select multiple groups by dragging (requires less action to select more units) and the new left/right mouse button use. I used to give a lot of bad orders in the other TW games because I just misclicked by a few dots and got another unit selected instead of the previous unit charging. The bad point about the new unit selecting are the new slimy green arrows under every unit in the group, which destroys a good part of the nice graphics of the unit. Although I love to have a more clear way to see on the battlefield which unit I selected, because sometime you just can't see which flag is bumping up and down in the distance, this is just too much. One line or so around a whole regiment is more then enough.
Now onto the last and most debates points; the speed of the game. I played Shogun and Medieval in very long periods (since it was holiday, almost whole days, from rise to sleep). Beside the camera the most annoying thing in the previous TW games for me was the fact that it sometimes would take a VERY long time to do a single battle. The combat itself is fast, but the Ai takes so much time manoeuvering. And sometimes I got into battles were the armies were about 500 (my side) to 3000 (enemy). It would take about 5-10 mins before the first army was even in range.. then some more for skirmishing then the real action.. followed by routing.. amazingly, the AI just kept rallying, manoeuvering again, routing again etc. Until finally I chased them down so much that they had almost nothing left. Then came the NEXT army. again the same story. I actually had several battles which I won because the AI had exceeded the time limit.
But these games had the time slider... and everything was good. If you didn't want to wait long for those reinforcements... the slider would bring them closer for you.
Enter the Rome;TW demo. The slider is gone. The reason soon becomes clear: the game is so fast, a slider isn't even necessary! Who would want to speed up a game that's on "fast" by default? The choice for speed was brutally removed when they increased the normal game speed (and killing rate!) to a level which requires RTS abilities. Like I said, I play RTS games, I like those for their speed. But TW games were different, Rome;TW just removed the finest part of its heritage: the strategic combat. The time window to react now is so short.
I saw a post about surprise attacks (don't recall if it was on this board or the .com one) not being doable in Medieval and that now the pace is quicker, these are possible in Rome;TW and are good. I agree that they weren't possible before, but that was mostly because the minimap showed a lot and spies (and border forts and such) are 100% accurate. If you want surprise attacks those should be altered, minimap should hide thing in the forest longer, spies should be able to make mistakes or be feeded false information. But the gamespeed which feeds the series' best strength should not be altered because of this.
In short:
Camera changes: + : resolves problems)
Battlefield graphics: ++ : eye candy like this can hardly be refused
User interface: - : pollutes strategic and tactical warfare and does not give clear overview.
Voice acting: 0 : doesn't bother me much and for those who don't like it, chances are high that it can be turned off, so this is just ok.
Unit selection: +/- : No more misclicking, more visual what unit selected, but a little overdone.
Speed : -- : You can't do much now since you can't react fast. Time windows are (too) short now.
So I must conclude that although Rome;TW has a lot of nice stuff, it also has some major flaws if the real thing is like the demo. I'm not convinced by people who say 'the demo is not like the game', it is going to be released very soon... they need to change a lot to the game to change the flaws.. this will be an expansion pack if it's added (money talks, and more money talks smoother.)
at 4.35 am, this post is way too long, and I'm very tired. Hope you enjoyed reading it, sorry if I wasted your time.
First, a little sidenote:
This post turned out longer then I intended. It is made of 3 parts. The first is just something a bit off-topic and intro. Skip it unless you have time free. The second part is about my background of TW games. Read it after you read part 3 and want to know some more about why I came to those opinions.
Sorry for the long post. I understand if a mod shorterns it, breaks it up in more then 1 post or anything in that nature. Truth is, I don't want to remove any part since it took me over an hour to make this post...
part 1
It strikes me as kind of odd, maybe this day (which is only young at its 3 am) is turning out as one of those weird those where a lot goes wrong, but it seems I am very locked away from the TW community.
I just tried to register at the .com forums to post about what I'm about to write below, but somehow ezboard got totally confused. I didn't get a validate email address message, but another message with a different username and password, which I think I used on a forum long dead. After more then an hour I gave up... remembering the trouble with previous ezboards (sigh).
Now I find that these forums, although they are a blessing with registering :), have a system that prevents people from posting in certain places until they reach a certain status.
It's not that I don't understand it, quite the contrary, I think it's a good system. I just put this down to voice the little bit of irony I feel about TW fora; it must really be a war out here ;).
Sorry for that long diversion introduction, maybe should have been a separate post, but then it would just be a worthless topic I think. On to the real topic.
part 2
I am a reasonably new player of the TW games. My brother bought and played Shogun a lot back in those days, but found Medieval a bit hard when it was just released.
Recently, I saw the games in his collection and asked if I could play them for a while. So about a month or 2 back I started Shogun and was instantly hooked. Medieval followed shortly after that and kept me playing well into the early mornings. I now bought both games (including the VI expansion my brother didn't have) and played with delight.
I was even happier when I found out that a new game in the series is soon to be released. After looking at the screenshots and some of the video footage, this all looked very promising.
So eager as the rest of the community I played the demo first thing I could on monday as well. And I'm a bit splitted about it. I've been playing Warcraft, C&C and the likes for a long time as well (even the good old days of Dune2 are engraved in my memory). I like those strategy games, but I was hooked to the TW series for other reasons. I own Warcraft 3 and C&C generals, I play them (not reguarly anymore.. 2 guesses which games caused that ;)), I like them, but they are different. I wouldn't have bought the TW games if they were just another RTS because with Generals and War3, I have all the regular RTS action I need.
The demo of Rome;TW played a lot like those RTS games (as many already stated). Since I am somewhat of a "middleman" (like both categories), I think I might have a slightly different perspective then others on the demo.
part 3
I for one like the new camera. One of the most troubling things in the previous TW games I found the camera. I never could quite get the hang of it. Obviously I haven't played the TW games as long as all the hardcore players, but I'm not that "stuck" (or 'locked in' as I should say in terms of networks) so that I can't appreciate something that technically and simplistically more appealing.
The battlefield graphics are better, I think nobody will argue here... the graphics are a huge step forward.
The minimap, kill ratio bar, unit panel and unit actions panel are less good then before; the atmosphere it radiates is much less the strategic atmosphere that comes from the previous TW games. Sure, the old TW games-graphics may look stale, but that's it's beauty... it contains information.. strategic information. It doesn't need to be fancy, it needs to be clear give a commander all the information it needs in the blink of an eye without too much mumbo-jumbo. All else (in my opinion) pollutes the way a person can effectively use strategic and tactic decisions in the game.
This is also true about the voice acting. Although I much confess that I think this problem is a bit overreacted. I think the odds are pretty high that there is a way to turn them off.
Unit selection has undergone both good points and a bad point. The good points being able to select multiple groups by dragging (requires less action to select more units) and the new left/right mouse button use. I used to give a lot of bad orders in the other TW games because I just misclicked by a few dots and got another unit selected instead of the previous unit charging. The bad point about the new unit selecting are the new slimy green arrows under every unit in the group, which destroys a good part of the nice graphics of the unit. Although I love to have a more clear way to see on the battlefield which unit I selected, because sometime you just can't see which flag is bumping up and down in the distance, this is just too much. One line or so around a whole regiment is more then enough.
Now onto the last and most debates points; the speed of the game. I played Shogun and Medieval in very long periods (since it was holiday, almost whole days, from rise to sleep). Beside the camera the most annoying thing in the previous TW games for me was the fact that it sometimes would take a VERY long time to do a single battle. The combat itself is fast, but the Ai takes so much time manoeuvering. And sometimes I got into battles were the armies were about 500 (my side) to 3000 (enemy). It would take about 5-10 mins before the first army was even in range.. then some more for skirmishing then the real action.. followed by routing.. amazingly, the AI just kept rallying, manoeuvering again, routing again etc. Until finally I chased them down so much that they had almost nothing left. Then came the NEXT army. again the same story. I actually had several battles which I won because the AI had exceeded the time limit.
But these games had the time slider... and everything was good. If you didn't want to wait long for those reinforcements... the slider would bring them closer for you.
Enter the Rome;TW demo. The slider is gone. The reason soon becomes clear: the game is so fast, a slider isn't even necessary! Who would want to speed up a game that's on "fast" by default? The choice for speed was brutally removed when they increased the normal game speed (and killing rate!) to a level which requires RTS abilities. Like I said, I play RTS games, I like those for their speed. But TW games were different, Rome;TW just removed the finest part of its heritage: the strategic combat. The time window to react now is so short.
I saw a post about surprise attacks (don't recall if it was on this board or the .com one) not being doable in Medieval and that now the pace is quicker, these are possible in Rome;TW and are good. I agree that they weren't possible before, but that was mostly because the minimap showed a lot and spies (and border forts and such) are 100% accurate. If you want surprise attacks those should be altered, minimap should hide thing in the forest longer, spies should be able to make mistakes or be feeded false information. But the gamespeed which feeds the series' best strength should not be altered because of this.
In short:
Camera changes: + : resolves problems)
Battlefield graphics: ++ : eye candy like this can hardly be refused
User interface: - : pollutes strategic and tactical warfare and does not give clear overview.
Voice acting: 0 : doesn't bother me much and for those who don't like it, chances are high that it can be turned off, so this is just ok.
Unit selection: +/- : No more misclicking, more visual what unit selected, but a little overdone.
Speed : -- : You can't do much now since you can't react fast. Time windows are (too) short now.
So I must conclude that although Rome;TW has a lot of nice stuff, it also has some major flaws if the real thing is like the demo. I'm not convinced by people who say 'the demo is not like the game', it is going to be released very soon... they need to change a lot to the game to change the flaws.. this will be an expansion pack if it's added (money talks, and more money talks smoother.)
at 4.35 am, this post is way too long, and I'm very tired. Hope you enjoyed reading it, sorry if I wasted your time.