Archers

[Tamur]

I did a bit of testing this morning with "creshan arshers" ~;) vs. their Roman counterparts... the difference is really amazing. I did a battle with ten units of each on each side, and the Romans not only lost but routed with 520 dead in less than four minutes, while the Carthaginian forces had taken 60 losses.

With a weak cavalry, and only mercenaries for decent archers, it seems like the Romans are in big trouble.

I only glanced through that complete unit list posted here a week ago, but I am hoping that the Romans will have access to some better bow units later. Anyone know more about this?

[CBR]

They are supposed to have auxillia archers too and thats it. Cretans are mercs so I dont think many, if any, faction wil be able to build them.


CBR

[Nelson]

It doesn't matter if Roman archers lose a shootout. If all Roman archers accomplish is the distraction of the enemy they will have succeeded. The real issue is how well everyone elses archers fare against the bulk of the Roman infantry.

[Oleander Ardens]

Interesting Test

In any case it is a priceless ability to have longrange missiles, as they enemy is forced to do something. I would love to play RTW with some factions very missile heavy, so I guess I will find our if Slingers or Archers can handle heavy infantrly better.

It seems that highly mobile troops are greatly advantaged in the Demo, especially cav and Elephants, so I guess a fast mobile army with great missile support should be a worthy try...

Cheers

OA

[Tamur]

Thanks all, will be interesting to see how the full game turns out for missile troops... and yes, will have to do some tests of Cretan Archers vs Roman infantry to see what sort of success they have.

[son of spam]

Roman archers are useless for ranged attacks. I usually just charge them into the rear of the enemy in melee. Quite probably I won't even build them during the campaign in the actual game.

[Tamur]

Slow day at work, so some experimenting...

What I did was set up a single-unit battle, I was defending as the Julii. I give the Carthaginians a single 60-man unit of Cretan Archers, and then set up a single unit of each of the standard Roman legion units and let the archers shoot away at them. When they ran out of arrows, the Archers charged.

Results (kills refers to the number the Carthaginians had at the end of battle):

vs. Triarii -- 46 kills
vs. Principes -- 37 kills
vs. Hastati -- 46 kills
vs. Velites -- 48 kills (and Velites routed before combat)

All these units were 60-man roman units, all ended up routing after the Archers charged.

Of course, standing there getting nailed by arrows isn't a terribly realistic scenario, so I then did a single battle where each unit simply charged (not running the whole way) the Archers and chased them.

The Cretan Archers skirmished for about half a mile, then would turn and fight. They routed in every case. Results:

vs. Triarii -- 14 kills
vs. Principes -- 12 kills
vs. Hastati -- 18 kills
vs. Velites - 25 kills

And I tried two where my Roman unit used terrain (the big rock in the Tutorial map) to lure the Archers into a bad position and then attacked them. The Archers would get NEARLY flanked but then skirmish out onto the plain.

Results:

vs. Triarii -- 13 kills
vs. Hastati -- 12 kills

AND finally, I tried two where I had two full "sets" of vel/hast/prin/tri units, and I surrounded four units of Cretan Archers and smushed them.

This was Tricky! These guys run away like a magnet from the same polarity... they'll squeeze out any opening in your flanking maneuver. I was lucky I had eight units to work with, because I needed all of them to encircle and close in.

SO...

it doesn't seem to make much difference if you use terrain -- these mercenary archers skirmish too dang fast to catch with infantry.

The moral of the story:

1) If you're fighting as the Romans, take care of mercenary archers ASAP or you're in big trouble. If that means chasing them down with a lot slower unit, then do it anyway.

2) If you're fighting as the Romans and you happen to have cavalry, even just light cavalry, reserve them for routing and chasing off Archers.

3) If you have the option/luxury of encircling archer units, do it and happy squishing.

[son of spam]

Slow day at work, so some experimenting...

What I did was set up a single-unit battle, I was defending as the Julii. I give the Carthaginians a single 60-man unit of Cretan Archers, and then set up a single unit of each of the standard Roman legion units and let the archers shoot away at them. When they ran out of arrows, the Archers charged.

Results (kills refers to the number the Carthaginians had at the end of battle):

vs. Triarii -- 46 kills
vs. Principes -- 37 kills
vs. Hastati -- 46 kills
vs. Velites -- 48 kills (and Velites routed before combat)

All these units were 60-man roman units, all ended up routing after the Archers charged.

Of course, standing there getting nailed by arrows isn't a terribly realistic scenario, so I then did a single battle where each unit simply charged (not running the whole way) the Archers and chased them.

The Cretan Archers skirmished for about half a mile, then would turn and fight. They routed in every case. Results:

vs. Triarii -- 14 kills
vs. Principes -- 12 kills
vs. Hastati -- 18 kills
vs. Velites - 25 kills

And I tried two where my Roman unit used terrain (the big rock in the Tutorial map) to lure the Archers into a bad position and then attacked them. The Archers would get NEARLY flanked but then skirmish out onto the plain.

Results:

vs. Triarii -- 13 kills
vs. Hastati -- 12 kills

AND finally, I tried two where I had two full "sets" of vel/hast/prin/tri units, and I surrounded four units of Cretan Archers and smushed them.

This was Tricky! These guys run away like a magnet from the same polarity... they'll squeeze out any opening in your flanking maneuver. I was lucky I had eight units to work with, because I needed all of them to encircle and close in.

SO...

it doesn't seem to make much difference if you use terrain -- these mercenary archers skirmish too dang fast to catch with infantry.

The moral of the story:

1) If you're fighting as the Romans, take care of mercenary archers ASAP or you're in big trouble. If that means chasing them down with a lot slower unit, then do it anyway.

2) If you're fighting as the Romans and you happen to have cavalry, even just light cavalry, reserve them for routing and chasing off Archers.

3) If you have the option/luxury of encircling archer units, do it and happy squishing.

Did you try this for Roman archers? How badly do they do?

[Tamur]

No, haven't tried that but that would be interesting vs. the standard Carthaginian infantry... hmmm.

[Oleander Ardens]

Hm given the larger maps, the seemingly much better skirmishing and the higher killing power of archers it looks very promising indeed for me.

Can't wait to get my hands on a good HA :jumping:

Just hope that the eastern Archers get also the very long range factor, and that Slingers are (relative) deadly against heavy infantry and I will be happy - as long the aren't too good. Don't want to have only shootouts ~;)

Cheers

OA

[Bob the Insane]

If I can ask a some what silly/ignorant question...

What happened to the Roman tortoise formation thing???

[Lucius Lucullus]

If I can ask a some what silly/ignorant question...

What happened to the Roman tortoise formation thing???
You probably need Cohort legionaires (post-marian reform that is) for that, the legionaires in the demo is pre-marian reform legionaires.

[Tamur]

Yes, post-Marian is the testudo...

Pre-Marian troops as in the demo will put their shields up after they get hit with the first volley of arrow fire. This makes the arrows much less effective, but guys still get hit in the face & legs.