View Full Version : Is the .com hicksville?
Don't know much about it.
Have visited it a couple of times and it all seems very rosy there.
The guys here obviously have a low opinion of it.
What's the score?
(For those of you who are too innocent to understand the concept of hicksville it is where your dad is also your sister. You will know you live there if both your feet are on the same leg.)
I don't really like it. I go there most days that I visit here, just to see if theres any threads of interest. I remember that there obviously isn't, and remind myself not to go back, but I usually still do.
Is it there to put posotive spin on the game in the knowledge that sensible discussion will be done in the .org?
Red Raptor Guy
09-01-2004, 00:47
Do not insult the .com. It is cool.
Is it there to put posotive spin on the game in the knowledge that sensible discussion will be done in the .org?
No. For the most part its the same as the ORG, just different people there....and therefore different personalities. Plus, they don't have the separation of forums like we have here (they have a little bit, but not as much as here), so you'll open up the Rome forum for instance, and find threads about many different topics all right there. I don't like that as there are many things I'm NOT interested in, and since they have soo many people visiting and posting in those threads, the things I might be interested in get pushed back a few pages. And I don't know about anyone else, but if somethings past the first page...I don't go looking for it.
CA visits there more, so they might get more info, but its not worth it imo.
Del Arroyo
09-01-2004, 01:56
The .com isn't hicksville, it's typical. The ORG is simply different. The administration is fully engaged. The people in charge of it now are the same people who were here four or five years ago-- they've seen it all, and work actively to keep things tilted away from most of the direr forms of insanity.
The Org is a well-run board. .Com is very typical.
DA
Odysseus
09-01-2004, 01:58
What I like abou the .com better than the org, is quite obvous. Where'd they get all this crap about "new members have to go here and senior members go here". It's plain stupid. And I just like the people over at the .com better than the people here.
Gregoshi
09-01-2004, 02:33
What site you like or dislike is a very personal thing. Each site has something to offer, it just depends upon how your likes match up. Then there is also the comfort factor - how much you like the way the members interact with each other and you. Where you might find a site membership snotty and abusive, another my think they are friendly and helpful. It is not so much what we think, but more importantly, what you think.
Edit: Odysseus, the system used here was put into place for a reason. Basically it serves as a meeting place between old and new forum members. It also serves as a screening mechanism for spammers and troublemakers. It has evolved and restrictions lessened in the past two years - in the beginning new patron could only post here in the Entrance Hall. Now there are only a few restricted forums.
Colovion
09-01-2004, 03:42
What I like abou the .com better than the org, is quite obvous. Where'd they get all this crap about "new members have to go here and senior members go here". It's plain stupid. And I just like the people over at the .com better than the people here.
It's funny because you're a Junior Patron. ~:p
I only visit the Org and TWC - the Com is pretty typical of a fanboy site.
Papewaio
09-01-2004, 04:29
Guys the .com and The Org (okay slight bias)... are two sides of a coin. The .com is the manufacturers site, .org is the meeting ground for the fans.
Now there is no sense in beating up one over the other. Some of our best patrons frequent both sites. Erado San for instance is a classic example of both a very friendly and helpful Org member and being a vital member at .Com.
Now the Junior Patron system is frustrating to both the Junior Patron and to the moderators... so why do we do it?
Ever been at a site where trolls, spammers and flammers are allowed to wander in and upset the place? Well this is our time consuming method of minimising it. Also Junior Patron status allows us to demote someone who has started to froth at the mouth, without having to ban them outright. We like to keep our fellow patrons, but sometimes they need to cool their heels.
Now the trend at the Org is that everytime a new Game, expansion pack, demo or patch comes out people get very on edge. We get an explosive mix of anticapative eager patrons and upset disappointed ones. Essentially it gets very tense around here and it is best if everyone chills, relaxs and be as polite as possible.
Colovion
09-01-2004, 08:38
WOrd
TonkaToys
09-01-2004, 08:50
... And I just like the people over at the .com better than the people here.
Odysseus,
I've only visited the .com once or twice, usually when someone here at the Org points out an interesting article. The people there seemed fine, just like the people here.
I tend to lurk around the Org simply because I recognise the people here and like the way the board is run.
~:grouphug:
Can you let me know why you prefer the people over at the .com, as I would then know whether to spend a bit of my time there too?
Thanks, all the best,
TT
Neither of these sites is any good tbh... not enough people post here, and .com is ezboard.
Oleander Ardens
09-01-2004, 13:49
The .com can be a very fine place, infact it is were I started posting, with a great deal of intelligent people. Had great discussions there;
But there are also more "useless" post at here, topics which come up for the xx time and take away the few space. This is a logical consequence of the great influx of "newbies", especially in the last month or so. I don't envy the Mods there, good guys which have to work hard to keep the .com in line..
The .org is more familiar, with many nice subforum ( and a rough one, as you all know) in fine order, and mostly "veteran" members; The standard level of the discussion is therefor usually higher and I really had some great ones here, especially the "Teach me how to use HA" with great imput from Dough and Katank.
All in all I like both ~:p
Cheers
OA
Sasaki Kojiro
09-01-2004, 14:46
.com can be very nice, lots of good stuff in the shogun section. Unfortunatly there are always lots of new people there and without the entrance hall it makes for a lot of junk/useless threads. Quite a few rude ppl as well which is the worst thing. It's not as pretty as this forum and the off topic section is very restricted. I still visit there regularly and post a lot, it just isn't as nice as the org.
Soulflame
09-01-2004, 14:55
I actually went there first when I wanted some info on the TW games (remember I'm only playing them for little more then 2 months). But somehow the registration was very awkward and I couldn't join those boards (which I had before with ez-boards).
But like said before, those boards are very fastpaced, as all developer sites are. Threads you post in are lost within a day and there's just an information overload, with alot of things just not worth my time or already read.
So I like this board better, since if I make it here once every 1 or 2 days, I can still see all the new posts in the first page of threads. Plus this site has cooler smileys ;) :knight: :crowngrin:
The .com has some nice people, but the problem is that they've got so many people. And with such a large member base, you're bound to find more than a few bad eggs. Yet over here, everyone seems to be nice :) (and overall, more mature I must say).
I also hate the fact that at the com, whenever I post, there's about 10 people posting at the same time. You can quickly lose track of posts and threads. Again, huge members base.
The .com has some nice people, but the problem is that they've got so many people. And with such a large member base, you're bound to find more than a few bad eggs. Yet over here, everyone seems to be nice :) (and overall, more mature I must say).
I also hate the fact that at the com, whenever I post, there's about 10 people posting at the same time. You can quickly lose track of posts and threads. Again, huge members base.
I think it's progress that you are openly admitting to being a forum newbie in general.
Silver Rusher
09-01-2004, 19:27
What's with this .com bashing? It's a good place, I only just signed up for here though.
Louis VI the Fat
09-01-2004, 20:45
Louis' two cents:
The threads down here are generally more interesting, but the posters can sometimes be a bit more uptight.
Both places are fine though. ~:grouphug:
ShellShock
09-01-2004, 22:12
I've been on the com for about 18 months, and it has been my main port of call until recently, and will be until I get uprated from junior patron here.
I must say it is a bit frustrating reading threads in the other forums here and not being able to reply with something cogent and relevant.
Odysseus
09-01-2004, 23:10
Well, I just really haven't got settled here yet. When I was newbie over at the .com, I was treated very nicely. Here, people just didn't have the same reaction.
Maeda Toshiie
09-02-2004, 06:13
I am a regular at .com Those who frequent the MTW and STW side of stuff will see my posts there. I have been there lurking/posting since the start of the year 2004, mainly in the STW, MTW and off-topic boards.
In general, the .com is a pretty good place. The rowdier boards are the RTW related ones. The ones that I stick to have enough senior guys to ensure that noobs dont run amok (either warned or censored by the mods).
Recently, the upcoming release of RTW and the release of the demo brought along a wave of new patrons, which included some undesirable elements. Arguing them only makes one look spastic, so I tend to stay away from the RTW boards now.
Many of the regulars there are patrons here as well, so it is not quite right to separate the .com from the Org.
One thing I do like about here are the smilies. I can do without siggies and avies, but those smilies are real cute. :tomato:
ElmarkOFear
09-05-2004, 04:16
The .com forum has gone from 12000 members to around 14000 members since the demo came out. I can only imagine how many there will be when RTW is released.
I am now an admin there, but I have been at the .org thru thick and thin, major revolts and other turmoils. You will find more of the MP community at other sites. The .com is mostly single player types with a few MP mixed in. I was asked to moderate at the .com, with the sole purpose of starting and moderating the 2 multiplayer sections which were added then. CA wanted some input from the MP community, but we are not sure what or if anything was taken from those discussions. We will see soon though.
One thing people do not realize, is there is a reason the developers do not answer questions at the .com. It is not some pat, "Oh, they don't have time." statement. It is for the reason, that from past experience, the developers were flamed every time they made a statement about why something was put in the game and they also made some statements, which turned out to be false, since either the feature couldn't be added or the publisher/programmers decided against it. The developers are not quite as thick-skinned as the .com admins and moderators and tend now to shy away from open responses. If it makes you feel better, even the mods and admins very rarely get any questions they have answered either. :)
Believe me, the moderators are working overtime at the .com trying to keep up with all the duplicate posts, useless spamming and troublesome patrons. We know it is a no-win situation. If we edit/delete/move posts, someone starts shouting "Nazis!", "Fascists", "Where is our freedom of speech!" and other such nonsense. If we let those same posts stay where they are, all the other patrons begin shouting, "Moderators aren't doing their job!", "The moderators need to get a handle on these." and the always insightful; "This forum sucks!". :) Anyways, we do what we can, with the little bit of time we can spend there and hope everyone eventually settles down into a normal patron.
Personally, there is something good and bad at every TW site. Depends what you are looking for.
Oleander Ardens
09-05-2004, 09:11
Believe me, the moderators are working overtime at the .com trying to keep up with all the duplicate posts, useless spamming and troublesome patrons. We know it is a no-win situation. If we edit/delete/move posts, someone starts shouting "Nazis!", "Fascists", "Where is our freedom of speech!" and other such nonsense. If we let those same posts stay where they are, all the other patrons begin shouting, "Moderators aren't doing their job!", "The moderators need to get a handle on these." and the always insightful; "This forum sucks!". :) Anyways, we do what we can, with the little bit of time we can spend there and hope everyone eventually settles down into a normal patron.
Yup, but considering that I hardly see any of this posts shows that the mods are really working overtime. Only by talking to Psycho how ugly things become sometimes. Even if I'm too don't agree in rare occasions with a mod decision I still think that they deserve a lot of credit for keeping that forum operatable...
Cheers
OA
Odysseus
09-06-2004, 14:59
It's to bad.
Desiderata
09-06-2004, 15:57
Im on both sites; I do think there is a better organisation and structure here and I do like the junior patron et al deal.
There's another site I used to go to that's now as dead as a dodo - neoseeker
PSYCHO V
09-07-2004, 15:11
Hmmm ... I like it here...nice and peaceful
... no "please delete this"..."please close that" ..."please ban me"
ah...very nice indeed ~:cool:
Papewaio
09-07-2004, 15:50
Is this the old Psycho?
Gregoshi
09-07-2004, 16:28
Well Elmo, Psycho and the rest of the .com mods, my hats off to ya. Just looking at the sheer volume of posting - forget about potential flamable content - makes me wanna dive under a table and assume the fetal position. You folks have your work cut out for you and I admire your persistence and dedication. :bow:
Here, here. Well done. And God(s) have mercy on your souls when RTW comes out and the tides of noobs flood in in their thousands. Seriously they mod like super humans at times. Without them I have no doubt the .com would of imploded. I say they should be knighted or perhaps given the release of RTW given a consulship or a signed copy of RTW each as a thank you from CA.
PSYCHO V
09-07-2004, 16:41
Thanks fellas...nice to know we can always come here for an occasional shoulder to cry on / a bit of R&R. ~;)
Once more unto the breech dear friends..once more..!
Cheers
Well Elmo, Psycho and the rest of the .com mods, my hats off to ya. Just looking at the sheer volume of posting - forget about potential flamable content - makes me wanna dive under a table and assume the fetal position. You folks have your work cut out for you and I admire your persistence and dedication. :bow:
Nothing like the way You were the mod for the EH a while a go, you were really good at that now why not volunteer to be a mod at the .com? ~:joker:
*Puts on mock serious voice* Don't be so cruel! ~;)
If ever they ask me to become a mod at the .com it better come with a signed copy of RTW cos it would be the only thing that would make me consider the worl load it would put on my shoulders.
Silver Rusher
09-07-2004, 20:14
*Puts on mock serious voice* Don't be so cruel! ~;)
If ever they ask me to become a mod at the .com it better come with a signed copy of RTW cos it would be the only thing that would make me consider the worl load it would put on my shoulders.
hey, zelda, aren't you supposed to be gone for a week maybe more? Or did somebody else tell me that?
From the .com yes.
I'll PM you the reason.
And no I'm not temporarily banned.
Longshanks
09-07-2004, 20:59
The .com with a few exceptions, is filled with imbeciles and fanboys who go into flame mode at the slightest hint of criticism of any aspect of the game. There are some interesting threads/posts, but you have to wade through a sea of stupidity before you find them. In the com's defense, most forums on a game manufacturer's website are like that. Also since the .com is a game manufacturer's site, free speech does not exist. Criticism of the game can get you banned. I was banned for offering constructive criticism in a few threads. At least that's all I could figure out, as I wasn't involved in any flame wars, trolling, commenting on the general lack of intelligence at the .com, posting questionable content or mentioning the site that "shall not be mentioned." I still get in on another account w/ a different IP though. Heh
This thread is a perfect example of all that is wrong with the .com:
Nitwit Exhibits A & B (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=6897.topic)
Summary: A new forumer asks a question, that doesn't criticize the game in the slightest. Two nitwits do not even bother to read his entire post, and immediately go into "defending the game" mode.
Odysseus
09-07-2004, 22:09
The .com is a pretty average place. But I have to say the modding is tremondously good. Then there's the layer of imbuciles and flamers and spammers. Both sites have different uses really. Here, the multiplayer forum is much better than at the .com(No offense Elmo) but the .com is really for the single player aspect. Both sites have knowledgeable veterans and thier fair share of annoying newbies.
Del Arroyo
09-07-2004, 22:27
This thread is a perfect example of all that is wrong with the .com:
Nitwit Exhibits A & B (http://p223.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm7.showMessage?topicID=6897.topic)
Summary: A new forumer asks a question, that doesn't criticize the game in the slightest. Two nitwits do not even bother to read his entire post, and immediately go into "defending the game" mode.
I dunno, man, whoever this Gamingcove guy is (like maybe... Longshanks?) did his darndest to provoke a disagreeable response. I'm not sure if an overt troll is really the best test of the citizenship of .Commites.
That said, I still like the Org. Even the ambience-- I could never get used to all that black at the other site.
DA
Red Raptor Guy
09-08-2004, 01:07
He's definately a big a-hole. He lashed out for no good reason. That shows how bad a n00b can get.
Colovion
09-08-2004, 01:12
I dunno, man, whoever this Gamingcove guy is (like maybe... Longshanks?) did his darndest to provoke a disagreeable response. I'm not sure if an overt troll is really the best test of the citizenship of .Commites.
That said, I still like the Org. Even the ambience-- I could never get used to all that black at the other site.
DA
I would have to disagree on that point - he asked a valid question and was immediately answered with the cliche answer that everyone gives. Sure his response wasn't all lollipops and rainbows but he asked a question, the least someone can do is try to answer it (or at least read it properly). Once he got in someone's bad books there was no saving grace and suddenly he was the bad guy.
Longshanks
09-08-2004, 02:38
I dunno, man, whoever this Gamingcove guy is (like maybe... Longshanks?) did his darndest to provoke a disagreeable response. I'm not sure if an overt troll is really the best test of the citizenship of .Commites.
I assure you thought I am not Gamingcove. I'm not in college any longer, so no research papers here.
Perhaps his response was a little inflammatory, but the initial response he got was typical of the .com.
solypsist
09-08-2004, 04:32
i must be the only guy on here who doesn;t go to other MTW/gaming forums
Papewaio
09-08-2004, 05:16
Someone send Gamingcove over here.
He can check out the history forum.
But he does have an attitude in his second post... a bit understandable... however he is also forgetting the age group of his posters... English as a second/third/fourth language... and that when you come cap in hand asking for an answer you should be polite at all times.
No bashing of the .com... it has its purposes... and its gems amongst the ore... but I stay here 99.99% of the time looking at Soly's threads.
:saint:
Del Arroyo
09-08-2004, 05:16
Not to be tedious, but it appeared to me that Gamingcove was a custom-made screen for a veteran poster who knew darned well the type of response he wanted, and as soon as he got it responded in what he thought was a fitting and comical manner. In other words, a troll.
At least half of first-time posts on poorly regulated forums are trolls, and based on both the concocted story and GC's response to it I'd say he fits the bill. As for LS of course none of us know, but I am a former sh!t-stir myself and sometimes it takes one to know one. ~;p ~:rolleyes: ~;)
No biggie..
DA
I frequent the TWC, .com and .org. But post here only. The .org is "home" and .com are the friendly neighbors.
I like the subdivision of the boards here. And the .org is definitely more heavily moderated, which I like. And I feel the .org posts are a bit more thought out . The pace is slower here. ON the other hand, for the latest info on the demo (mods and strategies) I have found the .com and TWC to be better.
I am also venturing a guess that the average age of .org members is older than that of .com and TWC. And that suits me fine.
Colovion
09-08-2004, 07:27
I'm guessing you're right about the majority of your summary of what the org is compared to .com and TWC. I like TWC for the large community but dislike it for being that big in the first place seeing as the larger communities breed more jerks (it would seem).
I haven't really noticed many trolls around here....
Del Arroyo
09-08-2004, 08:10
There are fewer trolls here because to getting access to the main forums takes a while. You'd have to plot and plan for weeks to achieve at most a few hours of very so-so havoc.
Actually, and I'm only continuing with this idea because it amuses me, it would theoretically be possible for one person to create a whole "farm" of usernames, registered at different times from different locations to disclose their association, manage them all simultaneously and wait patiently for them all to be "given the keys".
Then all he would have to do is make a post or two a week under each name to keep them alive, and, one by one, turn them berserk. Kind of like Al-Qaida sleeper cells. But who the hell has that kind of time?? ~:dizzy: ~:wacko:
DA
This is my first thread to exceed 2 pages
Acknowledge my genius!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :tomato:
"Fruit, rotten, rancid fruit! Get it whilst its moldy!" ;)
If you were supposed to be vegetarian why would god make animals out of meat? ~:wacko:
i must be the only guy on here who doesn;t go to other MTW/gaming forums
I don't either soly, been to the .com once and then fled back here. ~:joker:
BTW the average age of members here is actually pretty low, i guess i'm about average age (13) or older, as a lotof patrons seem to be 11 or 12 at the youngest, itwould seem, there seem to be a lot of people my age ~:wacko:
Colovion
09-08-2004, 20:51
I don't either soly, been to the .com once and then fled back here. ~:joker:
BTW the average age of members here is actually pretty low, i guess i'm about average age (13) or older, as a lotof patrons seem to be 11 or 12 at the youngest, itwould seem, there seem to be a lot of people my age ~:wacko:
or the maturity level is higher here - we don't attract people who like the flashy graphics and black background screen of the .com (it reminds them of porn sites) ~:smoking:
Silver Rusher
09-08-2004, 21:08
The mods there are (gotta credit 'em for all their hard work vs all their *spasm*ers and fla*mingers* but still...) annoying, they just seem to take suggestive comments on their work very badly. Just look at zelda12, who got banned for a week because he upset Ducky, one of the most chiefly annoying ppl of all there, and who would definately be banned if he wasn't a mod. They also block religion and politics, fair enough, but they can close the slightest leaniance towards it without thinking. There's a lot more wrong with some of them...
But others like elmo and psycho are alright, I guess. They have good senses of humour blah blah blah... I'll stop talking now.
Or will I?
Yes, I will.
No, well... yes.
See, this is the kind of posts ppl make over there, doesn't it make u wanna wretch?
Ok, now I am stopping.
Yes. NOW.
No, not quite...
Ok now.
Red Raptor Guy
09-08-2004, 22:53
I have to agree with Silver. The modding at th .com has taken a step higher when duck became a mod. Most people call him the "Therad Butcher". The slightest hint of going off topic, and he'll close it.
The modding here is great. The system is works very well and the mods are a little more loose, which is better sometimes. My guess is the mods over at the .com become over-stressed because the influx of n00bs. That's my 100 dollars for today.
Sasaki Kojiro
09-09-2004, 00:31
I don't either soly, been to the .com once and then fled back here. ~:joker:
BTW the average age of members here is actually pretty low, i guess i'm about average age (13) or older, as a lotof patrons seem to be 11 or 12 at the youngest, itwould seem, there seem to be a lot of people my age ~:wacko:
Last age poll I remember it was 22 or something...
Thedevil003
09-09-2004, 02:31
I go hear for the mods, and TWC for the rest, and I hate your system or restriction, it really makes this site worse, at least for me.
Colovion
09-09-2004, 03:07
I go hear for the mods, and TWC for the rest, and I hate your system or restriction, it really makes this site worse, at least for me.
in time, all in time ~:)
PSYCHO V
09-09-2004, 06:12
They have to make sure we're characters of good repute.
Thedevil003 you’ll be fine …but it doesn’t bode well for we psychotic types ~;p
Silver Rusher
09-09-2004, 06:49
Duck has been there less than a month, he already has more than 1000 posts. It's like modding the .com is his entire life.
The mods there are (gotta credit 'em for all their hard work vs all their *spasm*ers and fla*mingers* but still...) annoying, they just seem to take suggestive comments on their work very badly. Just look at zelda12, who got banned for a week because he upset Ducky, one of the most chiefly annoying ppl of all there, and who would definately be banned if he wasn't a mod. They also block religion and politics, fair enough, but they can close the slightest leaniance towards it without thinking. There's a lot more wrong with some of them...
But others like elmo and psycho are alright, I guess. They have good senses of humour blah blah blah... I'll stop talking now.
Or will I?
Yes, I will.
No, well... yes.
See, this is the kind of posts ppl make over there, doesn't it make u wanna wretch?
Ok, now I am stopping.
Yes. NOW.
No, not quite...
Ok now.
Actually, I was not banned but agreed to stay off for a week with Duck to show my remorse for a comment I made. Although I had planned to never make that known as it would ruin the point of staying off. Thank you silver. Ah well only a day to go and the millitant thread beckons it's embrace and once again I shall be able to write again.
PSYCHO V
09-15-2004, 15:51
Is this the old Psycho?
Who you calling old? ~;p
..but yes, the artist formerly know as 'Psycho'..now revealed in his true identity as 'Psycho V - the history obsessed pain in the a$$' ~:yin-yang:
..in keeping with my other sig at the .com (and because my old login doesn't work anymore)
my2bob
Typical anti waterfowl speciesism here.....
Zelda's absence from .com was voluntary and NOT as a result of my intervention....
People you have overlooked a basic point here, sure i clocked up 1000 posts in a month with this NEW identity but...... how many had i accrued with my old one?
Let me put this to you.....
If a forum that you loved, and that was staffed with Mods / Admins that you respected, offered YOU a Mods position.... how would you react?
I chose the route of honour.....
IMHO My modding is fair, posts / threads that deserve intervention get their just desserts......
Posters who defy rules / conventions get my 'opinions' forwarded to the Admins, these guys arent fools, if they agree they agree, if not they tell me.....
Man..... Posters have no actual idea of the degree of dedication needed to mod a site, or the effect it has on the Mods lives..... its true...
Anyhoo...... I havent marked cards from these posts and bear no grudges against my critics....... honest
~:grouphug:
Odysseus
09-16-2004, 02:01
Good excuse Duck. I mean explanation.*Hides from mod stick*.
I think that both sites have been able to keep their site user friendly and both have good mods.
I haven't been on the Org forums for a while (I've been playing other games), but I do prefer the Org to .com. Mostly because they are on ezboard (should be called hardboard) which I find is a pain for logging on due to my browser security settings.
Duck is right about all he said. Although I realised after the event(s), without strict mods the .com would of imploded. When a site reaches 14,000 members things can get out of hand quickly. And we all must remember the .com cannot "vet" new members like here at the .org.
By the way Duck did you intentionaly change your screen name. Or was it because you couldn't get DoW.
here or at .com?
I changed it to ....ofLaw at .com because I thought it was kind of funny
My username here was Antigonid, I was never DoW, and I thought Duck would mean I could post here without any prejudices from .com being involved
If this makes no sense Its because Ive slept most of the last 2 days, with the 'flu.....
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